[RichReg]

Originally Posted by sawcat

It may be too early for anyone to confirm this, but other the than the undesirable hesitation “feel” has there been a documented reduction in performance? I thought I read that Car and Driver was finding 0 to 60 times in the mid to high 5s. Has anyone been able to time the 330i (manual) yet to quantity a deficiency from BMW’s published time of 6.1 seconds? I guess I am just confused whether this is a performance or “feel” issue.

Well, that's what we're trying to determine by having this thread.
No one is exactly certain just yet, but I'm leaning toward the fact that it might be an isolated issue. Usually, the mags get pre-production cars to test, so that really won't help us figure it out.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by ziv

I completely agree with you. I don't want to spend one cent over what I already paid for the car :-) We're actually in sync. I was disappointed when I bought the 330Ci with the perf., I surfed the boards, did research, and the enthusiasts were saying that this chip will do the trick. It did. I loved the car with it. I REALLY wish I didn't have to spend the extra money. Also, I don't even know if Dinan will have a chip for the E90. I'm speculating, since they always had, and they're purely a BMW shop...

That said, MAYBE BMW has learned that the US market doesn't want a sluggish feeling car, and they'll program the ECU with a fun program. I had a good time while driving in Europe, and I can't wait to actually start pushing the car. But truth be told -- with the reprogrammed ECU in my 330Ci, my car was very very responsive to gas input. Some people might not like it. I loved it. But that's probably the reason that BMW chose to, by default, add a delay, so that for most consumers, it would appear as a luxury car, and not as a sports car...

There are arguments for it from either side.

I know the feeling.
I have a Triple Dinan package on my 323Ci, which includes the ECU upgrade.
But the car still felt (oh no, there's that word again: FELT) quite peppy BEFORE I did the Dinan conversion.
Even more so afterwards. But of course, the 323/328 didn't have Drive-By-Wire.

O.K., now I'm worried.....

[volsfan0911]

Originally Posted by sawcat

It may be too early for anyone to confirm this, but other the than the undesirable hesitation “feel” has there been a documented reduction in performance? I thought I read that Car and Driver was finding 0 to 60 times in the mid to high 5s. Has anyone been able to time the 330i (manual) yet to quantity a deficiency from BMW’s published time of 6.1 seconds? I guess I am just confused whether this is a performance or “feel” issue.

A friend of mine is at BMWNA and I asked him about a couple of things last night (sometimes it's nice living next to Montvale NJ - sometimes). The friggin red rear turn signals were one (US market survey - apparently we want red rear signals???? ) and the other was DBW. He's not directly in powertrain, but we were talking about published numbers (specifically, C&D's 5.6 seconds). BMW (and every other German manufacturer) is very conservative with their published numbers. That 5.6 is probably closer to reality IF you don't mind dropping the clutch and big rpm launches. The second is "smoothness" - that is an increase in perceived luxury and refinement. So I'm not surprised at all if they did dull throttle response down at partial throttle openings slightly. Can't have Muffy spilling her decaf double faux ameretto latte while heading off to the mall can we? Although from a test drive I took, that motor flat sings and dances over 5K. Relax - it was a distributor mule car - I doubt seriously I was the first Amerikaner to drive it like I meant it. And coming from my current commuter appliance (2004 V-6 Accord) it felt very familar. Yeah, there's some smooth power down low, but the party doesn't get going until you get past the fun side of 6,000 rpm. Thank God the 330i I drove had an excellent tranny. I hated BMW manuals before (clutch takeup 20 feet off the floor, LONG throws) but not this one!

[lumberman]

guys, starting to worry about this issue as I've seen more and more review eleswhere stating the same hesitation problem on e90

I do not agree on the chip fix suggestion, if I was to mod my car I would have brought a jap car and mod it as I desired. Its a god damn BMW!! starting to regret to order one without a test drive.

in the mean time, more review or 'confirmation' would be much appriciated.

[ziv]

Guys,

What ever happend to this thread? Are people calming down about this now? Has anyone gone past their break-in period and started pushing the car?

Originally Posted by lumberman

guys, starting to worry about this issue as I've seen more and more review eleswhere stating the same hesitation problem on e90

I do not agree on the chip fix suggestion, if I was to mod my car I would have brought a jap car and mod it as I desired. Its a god damn BMW!! starting to regret to order one without a test drive.

in the mean time, more review or 'confirmation' would be much appriciated.

[Armen52]

I will report more once I pick up my car in a month or so. But after my second, longer test drive, I came to the conclusion that this is just a bit of dead or insensitive tip-in area in the throttle pedal. While its not something that I love, I am sure that once I am used to it I will just be in the habit of pushing past it for the power I am looking for.

[Jerel56]

I took my E90 into the dealer the other day for mud flaps and phone cradle installation. They gave me an E46 with 5K on it for a loaner and it was much quicker off the pedal than the E90....the difference was very, very noticeable! They are both auto transmissions and I was shocked by the difference. Of course, that said....I still love my car and can live with pushing past the hesitation for "quick" power. I do wish that it was more responsive, however, I have yet to try starting from sport mode so, I'm hoping it makes a difference. Has anyone with Steptronic tried this yet?

Jeff

[Amil]

didnt feel like reading the rest of the post...but all i can tell u is that after 600 miles the thing starts to open up!

[deutschmann59]

I, too, have noticed this engine hesitation while driving my 325i, even while in Steptronic mode. I'm really not sure why this happens, but it is definitely noticable. I'm the kind of guy that likes to race through an intersection as soon as the light turns green so the people behind me know I'm not the baba going excessively slow so those cars (the people behind me) miss the light and have to wait for another round. I definitely don't want to be known as that guy. But this engine hesistation is starting to turn me into that person .

I'm not worried about it, though. I truly believe this is a new engine issue. I don't know if every dealer gives this out every time they sell a brand new BMW, regardless of the model, but my dealer gave me two bottles of BMW-brand "Gasoline Additive" which says directly on the bottle: "Maintains new car performance, Eliminates engine sluggishness and hesistation and Cleans fuel injector and intake valve deposits." The bottle does look like a bottle of fuel injector cleaner, but I think BMW anticipates new engines to have a sort of sluggishness about them, since the bottle says explicitly that it should help the issue. Obviously BMW knows it is a issue, so I am hopeful it will go away soon.

[Armen52]

See, I don't think its an engine hesitation issue at all. I think it has to do with the tuning of the Drive-by-Wire.

I also have driven my cousin' E46 330Ci sport/step and it practically JUMPED when i feathered the throttle. That was a bit too sensitive in my opinion whereas this one's a bit soft. Overcompensation maybe?

[CC 330i]

Sounds like a DBW issue to me. Similar things all over the Audi S4 boards. It's almost eerie how similar the issues sound. In the case of the S4, DBW upgrades seemed to improve the problem, but maybe not fix it altogether.

Personally, I will just downshift until they fix it.

[romeo26]

well i dont have any exprences with dvw because i drive a manule e30 325 no letter. i get lag if i dont warm up the engin for 3 min, but after the throtle responce is crisp. i also drove my sisters merc c230 kompressor, and after the break in period it lost the lag. so wait untill the break in period ends and try it out if it still exist then please tell? Bmw needs to do something about the lag, b/c i to like to clear the intercection very fast. but i dont know b/c i will cirtanly mod my e90 when i get it next year. you people are scaring me on this lag problem. also i am look to get a 325ci sport pkg, xinons(spelling very bad), and the electric seats. may be sg or ts.

oh yah the lag problem might be a problem in the canyons here in cali.

[ziv]

Originally Posted by Armen52

See, I don't think its an engine hesitation issue at all. I think it has to do with the tuning of the Drive-by-Wire.

I also have driven my cousin' E46 330Ci sport/step and it practically JUMPED when i feathered the throttle. That was a bit too sensitive in my opinion whereas this one's a bit soft. Overcompensation maybe?

So I had a stick sports 330Ci for 4.5 years. I know EXACTLY how it feels. It only responds like that after you've modified the ECU with the Dinan software. Otherwise, it had that hesitation, across the DBW feel and response, and not just at starts.

Regardless, the thing that bothers me about what you guys are saying, which is that the car feels sluggish at starts is that the car is almost a whole second FASTER then the 330Ci. BMW claims it's .6 seconds faster and when magazines review it, they agree that BMW is very conservative in their 0-60 figures. So if we all think that the E46 is NOT sluggish, how can a car that is 1 second faster be sluggish? Doesn't make sense to me.

So I have to conclude that EITHER it's:

* DBW and it needs to be reprogrammed at the dealer
* it's the break-in period
* it's the gearing ratio being that we're all used to 5 gears, and the 1 and 2nd gears on the new 6 speed trans are shorter.

So in ANY of the 3 cases, if you guys agree with me, we should be OK. Even in the first case, by the time we're all up to our 1st "scheduled" oil change, they'll have a software upgrade and they will reflash the firmware at the dealer...

Let me know what you think.

[shipo]

When I picked my 2002 530i up in Munich, it drove great. Spent two weeks driving through Austria, Switzerland, France (to Paris), Luxembourg, and then back to Munich. Through it all I had no idea that my car had a DBW system as it was just as responsive as my 1998 built E46 328i (just more powerful).

A month later I picked up my car here in the States and I could not believe how horrible it drove. In fact, the on-throttle hesitation was so ridiculous that I felt the car was unsafe. My dealership initially thought that it was the old "Sticky Gas Pedal" thing, and performed that fix, to no avail. It wasn't until I moved up here to New Hampshire and took it into Tulley in Nashua that the subject of the firmware came up. I was talking to the technician who was telling me that, "All DBW equipped BMWs drive that way. They all have the lag."

"Yeah," I responded, "well it sure as hell didn't have it when I picked it up in Germany. Do the Europeans have different software?"

He looked a bit dumb struck, "Your car didn't have that lag in Germany? Hmmm, let me go check the date on you firmware."

He came back out a few minutes later and told me that the date of the firmware release clearly showed that my NJ dealership had "Flashed" the system when they got the car in. "Gee thanks" I thought to myself. He then offered to check to see if he could either A) get a copy of the original firmware that was on my car, or failing that, B) find a newer release. Five minutes later he had installed "Option B", and away we went. The throttle lag was almost completely gone, and even as the DBW system "Learned" my driving style, it stayed basically gone. Having said that, once a month or so it would occur in situations like, screaming around an on-ramp, only to have to slow down for a more pedestrian ride in front of me being driven my Grandma Perkins. The instant I would go back on throttle, there would be a momentary lag, and then BANG, the engine was back to full song.

I told you all of this as a means of illustrating that I believe that the DBW is the culprit in the case of the on-throttle lag. At least here's hoping. Why? Because I've heard that BMW is NOT including the Valvetronic system on the "M" cars simply because it doesn't react fast enough to throttle transients. Let's hope that the on-throttle lag isn't what they were referring to.

Best Regards,
Shipo

[scottz5]

DBW

[ziv]

Makes sense, and since I drove it in Germany/Austria for 330 miles, and didn't feel anything "wrong", though I didn't push it -- I'll take your advise and ask my dealer not to flash it when it arrives in a couple of weeks :-)

Originally Posted by shipo

When I picked my 2002 530i up in Munich, it drove great. Spent two weeks driving through Austria, Switzerland, France (to Paris), Luxembourg, and then back to Munich. Through it all I had no idea that my car had a DBW system as it was just as responsive as my 1998 built E46 328i (just more powerful).

A month later I picked up my car here in the States and I could not believe how horrible it drove. In fact, the on-throttle hesitation was so ridiculous that I felt the car was unsafe. My dealership initially thought that it was the old "Sticky Gas Pedal" thing, and performed that fix, to no avail. It wasn't until I moved up here to New Hampshire and took it into Tulley in Nashua that the subject of the firmware came up. I was talking to the technician who was telling me that, "All DBW equipped BMWs drive that way. They all have the lag."

"Yeah," I responded, "well it sure as hell didn't have it when I picked it up in Germany. Do the Europeans have different software?"

He looked a bit dumb struck, "Your car didn't have that lag in Germany? Hmmm, let me go check the date on you firmware."

He came back out a few minutes later and told me that the date of the firmware release clearly showed that my NJ dealership had "Flashed" the system when they got the car in. "Gee thanks" I thought to myself. He then offered to check to see if he could either A) get a copy of the original firmware that was on my car, or failing that, B) find a newer release. Five minutes later he had installed "Option B", and away we went. The throttle lag was almost completely gone, and even as the DBW system "Learned" my driving style, it stayed basically gone. Having said that, once a month or so it would occur in situations like, screaming around an on-ramp, only to have to slow down for a more pedestrian ride in front of me being driven my Grandma Perkins. The instant I would go back on throttle, there would be a momentary lag, and then BANG, the engine was back to full song.

I told you all of this as a means of illustrating that I believe that the DBW is the culprit in the case of the on-throttle lag. At least here's hoping. Why? Because I've heard that BMW is NOT including the Valvetronic system on the "M" cars simply because it doesn't react fast enough to throttle transients. Let's hope that the on-throttle lag isn't what they were referring to.

Best Regards,
Shipo

[bimmer06]

I have experienced the same sluggish start on my 330i. It bothered me enough to search the forum to see if anyone else is experiencing the issue hence I found this thread. I sure hope there is a solution for the initial sluggishness.

[CC 330i]

OK, I just drove Big Sur in both directions yesterday, and my car had less than 500 miles on it so I couldn't really push it as hard as I wanted to, but I didn't feel any serious problem with hesitation. What I did feel when I occasionally went over 4500 RPM was that there is a dramatic power increase in the upper rev range.

I don't doubt that there may be a DBW update that can help the throttle feel down low, but I think what we may be feeling is the difference in horsepower at different RPM. I think this engine is probably very close to the e46 power below 3000 rpm, but has added about 30 hp in the upper rev range due to the more advanced intake system and valvetronic. (It breathes dramatically better at high RPM) The torque peaks at 2750 RPM, however, and this should give a good feeling of thrust down low. If anyone has any more info on the ECU flash versions or updates, please let us know, however.

I noticed that many people that experienced the hesitation problem were also driving an Automatic transmission. There were also on test drives. I drove the Steptronic and didn't like it. It felt sluggish. (It's called a torque converter). I drove many S4s with Tiptronic too, and I didn't like them. Maybe part of the problem is the mapping on the steptronic. I think this probably "adapts" to your driving style over time, but the auto transmission is really a bad way to get a feel for a motor, especially on a 10 minute test drive. I had the tranny in "manual" mode the whole time on my Steptronic e90 test drive, and it still felt sluggish. (Try the DSG gearbox in the Audi A3 if you want to try a really good "automatic"). I don't care if you had an e46 with auto, it is a brand new 6 speed steptronic transmission so the transmission will not feel the same either. If you drive an automatic transmission, I don't think that your top priority is acceleration anyway. (however the DSG in the Audi A3 is actually "quicker" than manual, since it is technically an automatically operated manual transmission). Keep in mind that the auto is as much as .6 seconds slower to 60 mph in the e90. (I don't mean to discount the fact that their could be DBW upgrades that may help throttle feel and acceleration, however).

I have driven my e90 330i Manual Transmission with Sport Package for about 500 miles (almost all spirited driving on windy PCH through Big Sur) and I have not been disappointed with the power or the power curve. I had been considering an S4 before this car, and yes, I wish it had the power of the S4 down low, but the power it does have really is usable and is a good balance for the chassis. I think it just likes to live up in the higher revs more than the e46. It may also very well have some programming to save the engine prior to break-in.

For now, I just make sure that I am at about 3500 RPM or so if I need to pass someone on a narrow road. There is plenty of power and throttle response up there (with Manual Transmission at least). In fact, the car builds speed so fast at that RPM, it took me by surprise.

[carl_d]

This problem also occurs on the E46 325/330 engines when using anything other than 98 RON fuel. All BMW sixes are tuned for 98 RON, when you use anything less, the knock sensors pick up the "pinking" and the ingnitaion is retarded to prevent more knocking -- this process causes the hesitation you guys are expereining. Try running you cars on Shell Optimax as it a 98 RON fuel (here in UK). The engine managment software also take time to adjust to your preferd fuel, it may take several tanks of 98 RON to make the software stick with the ignition settings - its using fizzy logic. Mixing fuel grades with cause bring the problem back.

Tested 325i with 18" wheels and sports suspension. On dealer waiting list for UK Sport Model (inc M-Tech body etc). Trading-in 330i Sport. 325 seem almost as fast as 330 and I like short gaering on 325..

[mfstout]

CC 330i:

I am picturing you motoring along PCH1 in your new Bimmer. Maybe one of the most perfect roads to drive a great car on.

We are all wicked envious.

Drive fast (but watch that drop!)

Cheers!

sparky

[shipo]

Originally Posted by carl_d

This problem also occurs on the E46 325/330 engines when using anything other than 98 RON fuel. All BMW sixes are tuned for 98 RON, when you use anything less, the knock sensors pick up the "pinking" and the ingnitaion is retarded to prevent more knocking -- this process causes the hesitation you guys are expereining. Try running you cars on Shell Optimax as it a 98 RON fuel (here in UK). The engine managment software also take time to adjust to your preferd fuel, it may take several tanks of 98 RON to make the software stick with the ignition settings - its using fizzy logic. Mixing fuel grades with cause bring the problem back.

Hmmm, I'm thinking "Not!" I've never run either of my BMWs on anything less than the highest available quality of fuel. In my case, I had a significant hesitation that I felt was so severe that it compromised the safety of the car. The problem appeared immediately after my dealership "Flashed" my ECU when my ED car hit our shores. Said problem didn't go away until it was re-flashed with a later version of firmware.

If that is not enough, given the number of folks reporting that they are sensing an on-throttle lag (high), and given that -most- folks that drive BMWs that I'm aware of use nothing but "Premium" fuel, I seriously doubt that the fuel quality is the issue.

Best Regards,
Shipo

[pharding]

Drive by wire steptronic takes time to "learn" your driving style. The factory setting is conservative. Also the car may be programmed at the factory to be less aggressive until broken in.