[Aija]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

By the same token, I could use anecdotal reports of the various cars I or my immediate family have owned over the past five years, and the most reliable car would be a GM product (a GMC Yukon, actually) while the least reliable would be a Lexus RX300. Note that all of them have been relatively reliable nonetheless. But how could I could justify the use of these individual examples as legitimate representatives of an entire population?

Your right, its just one sample and anyone can use common sense to know a sample can be bad. But my point is, in general, you hear more problems about BMW then lets just say lexus..... of course that can be a bad sample also

[carjon]

I agree that design flaws really should be a different category or they need to change the survey to customer statisfaction rather than initial quality. Obviously BMW is never going to do well as long as the world hate's iDrive.

I don't have iDrive but I must agree that some of the stuff in my 330xi is really stupid from a usability standpoint. BMW is into doing things because the can rather than because they should. I wonder who tests their driver usability stuff. For instance, to me, the blinker switch is stupid. There is no benefit over the old physical movement design (3 blinks on light touch is done also with regular) and I'm sure it confuses people who are used to regular blinkers. Why a button and a key inserted for non CA cars? Just makes things harder.
The worst things for me are the electronic (push button 1 until.. then button 2) controls for items such as dash light brightness - the old knob turn worked fine and didn't take 3 steps. No oil dip stick - why? No temp gage?

I love my 330xi but there definately are some user unfriendly items in it.

[sjs]

Originally Posted by picus

This is a good point. Here is last years ranking:



As you can see BMW in fact has better numbers this year, but so does most of the industry. The industry average went down by ~90 problems per 100 vehicles. Pretty impressive overall.

Check out Hyundai, from 260 to 102. Incredible.

Hold on a second. If the 2005 numbers are in the 200-300 range, and the 2006 numbers are in the 100-200 range, But JD Power says they changed the criteria to now include "design flaws" IN ADDITION TO initial quality defects, shouldn't the numbers for 2006 be MUCH HIGHER?

This smells wrong to me.

-Steve

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by sjs

Hold on a second. If the 2005 numbers are in the 200-300 range, and the 2006 numbers are in the 100-200 range, But JD Power says they changed the criteria to now include "design flaws" IN ADDITION TO initial quality defects, shouldn't the numbers for 2006 be MUCH HIGHER?

This smells wrong to me.

-Steve

The discrepency is easy to explain: the image above is the Vehicle Dependency Survey, i.e. the long term reliability survey. The survey quoted at the beginning of this thread is the Initial Quality Survey, which is completely different!

Not even the same thing.

Here's the 2005 version of the IQS:

[sjs]

ok then. thanks for catching that

-Steve

[ON325i]

Take a look at where Porsche was in 2005 and where they are in 2006.

[ScBlacksunshine]

One thing for certain, VW is near the bottom for both report...that should tell you something

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by wyrm11

The part that actually stands out to me about that article is that BMW has as few defects and malfunctions as Toyota. For all the talk about how Japanese cars are more reliable than German cars, I think that says a lot.

Polling on design-related problems is a bit faulty IMO and even if there are problems, they're more easily avoidable than malfunctions.

Yes, but that comment is BS because it's not been backed up by past surveys. If what he says is true, the BMW should have ranked higher before and the same or near to Toyota.
2005 dependability data show Toyota at 195 problems with 225 for BMW. Hence, BMW = more problems.

Also, design flaws are stupid to include in a "quality" survey. Most people associate this with actual break down problems not user/owner unfamiliarity issues. I don't consider not knowing how to use your HVAC system a "quality" problem. If your HVAC system doesn't work properly then that would be a quality/relibility problem.

Still, I wouldn't kid myself that BMW's reliabilty is up there with Toyota.

[ScBlacksunshine]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Still, I wouldn't kid myself that BMW's reliabilty is up there with Toyota.

Yeah just like I wouldn't kid myself, a Camry or Lexus IS drives like a E90

[Robert]

i wouldn't call it crap. I would still rather own a car with less problem to begin with than one that has more. Less problem in any time frame is good.

Originally Posted by noflash

Correct me if I am wrong, but the "Initial" quality refers to the first 3 months of ownership. Ask those Cayenne owners how the quality is after 3 mos.

This study is crap.

Not to mention, it's on a curve for idiots:
"For example, BMW vehicles have among the fewest defects and malfunctions, along with Toyota," said Ivers. "But BMW approaches controls and displays in a way that creates some problems for customers, leading to more design-related problems overall than Toyota incurs."

[F32Fleet]

Blame it on I-drive...lol.

[ABR]

I was really annoyed with turn signal control for first 3 months, but now I really like it. Combination of start button and keyfob was not impressive either (I don't have C.Access)… got used to it just fine.

Most important that BMW went from 200 to 100 defects, that is good news. As for electronic gadgets, perhaps, Germans will never beat Japan in that department.


P.S. Great to see you there Picus!

[Oz]

I guess this is what happens when you are a innovator. I expect companies like Hyundai and Honda doing well because what new technology they have bought to the market lately? They are good at making cars nowadays because they don't have advanced features such as iDrive,etc

[e90rocks]

Vehicle brands can vary widely in the two quality measures.

"For example, BMW vehicles have among the fewest defects and malfunctions, along with Toyota," said Ivers. "But BMW approaches controls and displays in a way that creates some problems for customers, leading to more design-related problems overall than Toyota incurs."

BMW ranked well below average in the survey with 142 problems per 100 vehicles.

A BMW spokesman attributed the large number of design-related issues to the amount of advanced technology in the company's vehicles.

"We are known, and we are expected to be, a leader in cutting edge technology," said David Buchko, a BMW spokesman.

New owners may have trouble using some of the vehicles' technology simply because it is unfimiliar to them, he said.

Exactly! So once again, the car runs like a dream, but someone doesn't like the cupholders, or can't see whether the rain sensor is on because they have to look around the steering wheel. JD Power is starting to sound like Consumer Reports! Next thing will be that people don't like | standing for 'on' and 0 standing for 'off'.

Originally Posted by ScBlacksunshine

Your comment doesn't really support anything, especially when you're talking about members here complaining about the little things. This would also apply to other makes, if you go to Clublexus, you'll also find owners that complain about small problems here and there, but that doesn't mean Lexus is not reliable. Overall, people that go on car forum on the net and post most of the time tend to be more of a perfectionist then general consumer and hence more people will complain on the forum about this and that (or praise about it more then others) What I have problem with is the the direction JD power is going with for this year's survey, check out the quote below straight from the CNN article, it just doesn't sound right to me. Unfortunately, this will only help elevate more misconception about anything other then Japanese make.

"You won't have failures related to a parking assist system if you don't have a parking assist system," he said. "Then lexus comes out with one and customers don't have any propblem with it"

P.S. I used to have a Toyota Solara, and I've experienced numerous problems with it (O2 sensors/Knock sensors/AC problem/Window sill not fitting right/rattle) now base on your comment, I guess I can say Toyota suck when it comes to reliablity? I think not

Based on my personal experience,japanese cars are more reliable than german cars.I have a german car not because it's more reliable but because it's more fun to drive.We had a Honda accord never saw the shop for anything but routine maintenance,same story with my sister's Lexus.I see a pattern forming.You are the exception to the rule,when it comes to Toyota.
Are you questioning Toyotas(Lexus) being overall more reliable than BMW's?


I agree with that JD power survey.
PS. JD power is a reputable organisation,as far as I'm concerned.

Mercedes-Benz,Land-rover...also ranked low for a reason.Why is it so different for BMW.
I'm sure you'd find people on a MB forum debating the accuracy of the study,as well.

[ScBlacksunshine]

Originally Posted by quincy

Based on my personal experience,japanese cars are more reliable than german cars.I have a german car not because it's more reliable but because it's more fun to drive.We had a Honda accord never saw the shop for anything but routine maintenance,same story with my sister's Lexus.I see a pattern forming.You are the exception to the rule,when it comes to Toyota.
Are you questioning Toyotas(Lexus) being overall more reliable than BMW's?


I agree with that JD power survey.
PS. JD power is a reputable organisation,as far as I'm concerned.

No, you need to re-read my original post, what I am trying to say is you simply base reliability on your own personal experience and making generalization as a fact. By the way, I am not an exception, and I know people that also had problems with their Toyota, but that doesn't mean Toyota is not reliable as a whole. You simply believe that BMW is completely unreliable as a whole base on your own experience, which in a way, to someone who doesn't know, it's simply misleading..

[STE92VE]

Originally Posted by BiggieJ

holy crap! kudos to huyndai whowudathought? ouch BMW is way way down

See what happens when you don't give all 5's!!!!!!

[Nikki]

Several things I have against these surveys, and always have, so not biased due to BMW in any way:

The types of problems are not distinguished - although this year they separated the defects from the design issues- they should differentiate between major problems and minor problems. One car could need a new tranny while another could need a new control unit for the memory seats.

Cars with more technology in them will have more problems. A car with auto headlights/wipers, memory seats, tire pressure monitoring gauge, etc. has so many more computer and electronical parts that could malfunction than a Hyundai.

People that buy more expensive cars tend to expect more, and therefore, tend to complain about more insignificant things.

Some dealers will tell you that there is something wrong with your car in order to get money out of you. It could be that luxury cars do this more often since they make so much money off of labor and I know when Craig worked at Audi he told me of things like this.

Many of the manufacturers are soo close that it seems unfair to say one is better than another simply because there are 2 less defects per 100 cars.

I'm not saying that the thing is completely useless, just that it is often regarded as the ultimate last word in a brand's reliability and many people take it to be very important when considering a car. My one year of owning an Acura ended up in far more problems than my owning a BMW. It really just depends on the actual car that you get.

[SteVTEC]

LOL, I always love reading through these threads. Doesn't matter what forum I go on regardless of make or model. When JDPA studies are released if the results are favorable JDPA is great and they're "correct", and people have fun laughing about how poorly a rival make did and how great their brand is. But if they're "unfavorable" the study is flawed, biased, crap, irrelevant, or whatever. It's the best when the results flip-flop from year to year and you get to see people contradict themselves, or apply double standards.

Then I like to laugh even harder at the people who get their pannies in a bunch the most trying to refute the studies. They call them crap/biased or whatever when they clearly don't even understand what the study is measuring, commonly confuse initial quality vs long-term quality, use ancedotal evidence to refute it which is statistically irrelevant, and all sorts of other irrational arguments.

Just because somebody cannot figure out a complex control system doesn't mean that they're "stupid" either. How many software updates are there on these cars, and why is the software updated in the first place? It's updated because there are problems, there are bugs, and things are confusing to some. So it's not like they're foolproof, and they're clearly still a work in progress still when the first car is rolling off the assembly line.

[SteVTEC]

BTW, it took until post #30 for the word "bias" to come up, so this forum probably isn't all that bad.

[e90rocks]

I agree with the above statements regarding the statistical uselessness of personal experience. That being said, it's human nature to use personal experience to influence future consumer choices. Think of the last time you got a really bad TV, computer, or VCR. Did you look for that brand again the next time you had to purchase one? [OK, well I did keep buying various iterations of Microsoft Windows....but virtual monopolies aside...] Let's face it, people are just not wired to think in probablistic terms all of the time, and most of us don't have enough background in statistics to understand why our choices are wrong or why our opinions are subject to bias. Of course it's not all bad.
Las Vegas and Atlantic City would not be possible without statistical illiteracy.

Misuse of facts and figures is rampant...but at least on this forum brand loyalty doesn't completely blind us. I listen to NFL Radio now that my e90 came with Sirius. The hosts are pretty knowledgeable, but some of the things fans come up with are downright scary.

Well, anyway....I've already purchased my car, so I really don't care that much what JD Power, consumer reports, or Road & Track say about my auto, good or bad. I'm just going to keep on lovin' the car.