Need Advice on Audio Upgrade

[lll3575]

Thx

[Nicky G]

I'm right there with ya man! CHeck out a few of the other threads, we've been discussing this quite a bit.

Here is what I'm starting to think about. I also have 2010 with base audio. I dunno, it's not nearly as "bad" as I was expecting. But, I want to FEEL the techno, you know? This car calls for that kind of blissful experience of sheer sound.

• I'm going to keep the factory head unit. Make sure the Smartphone Integration keeps working, etc.

• I'm looking at adding a 5-channel amp, possibly Alpine PDX-5 or Infinity Kappa 5, or MAYBE if I decide to go all-out, the JL Audio HD 900/5. The last one is WAY more than I'm really looking for, and much more expensive, so it's an unlikely option. I'm still trying to learn more about the Kappa 5 and if it's any good. Alpine PDX-5 reviews are... mixed?

• It seems you can go directly from stock head unit to the amp, but my local installer tried to convince me yesterday I needed a sound processor, Technic on here seems to think that's bull, and I'm keen to agree with him. My local installer was kind of an arse, and seemed like he wanted to sell me way more than I was looking for, all at MSRP. Gimme a break!

• For a sub, it looks like a 10" JL Audio, maybe 10W3v3, in the custom box for it that one of the user's on this board makes and sells for a few hundred bucks. VERY slick, makes it so the sub mounts basically flush on the left side of your trunk, where that little "cubby hole" is.

• You can basically forget about the under-seat speakers, they won't be necessary once you get a real sub. This means your five channel amp will suitably drive the sub, plus four channels of audio, those being the two 4" speakers int he rear deck, and the two 4" door speakers.

• Because the 2010 base audio system doesn't include the triangular door-pillar tweeter mounts for component speakers on the door with separate tweeter, you need to order those from BMW for ~$100 for the pair, IF you want components on the door. This is a good idea!

• For the two door speakers I'm likely going to get the Focal Polyglass 100 VRS components.

• For the two rear-deck speakers I'll probably get the Focal Polyglass cvx 100 coaxial speakers (the tweeter is not discrete, but rather sits int he middle of the woofer area). As the rear speakers are more for "fill" I don't think actual component speakers with a real crossover for a separate tweeter will be necessary.

So that's my plan! I just need to find a local installer I feel good about to set it all up, as this kind of a project is WAY out of my league I have to say.

[spun]

It seems you can go directly from stock head unit to the amp, but my local installer tried to convince me yesterday I needed a sound processor, Technic on here seems to think that's bull, and I'm keen to agree with him. My local installer was kind of an arse, and seemed like he wanted to sell me way more than I was looking for, all at MSRP. Gimme a break!

He is sorta right.
Doing it with just a LOC (line output converter) will get it done but the voltage on the pre outs will be low.
In order for any decent amp to run well it needs to see 3-5 volts, an LOC will maybe deliver 1 volt so your 500 watt amp just became a 100 watt amp, more or less.
A processor based LOC (RF 360.2, JL Cleansweep, a few products from audio control) will restore the lost voltage and allow your amps to run at there full potential, some of the audio control products align the timing as well.

There is an alternative, you could add a line driver in, Phoenix Gold makes a good one and you can pick it up for $30-40 on eBay

[Brissie]

Originally Posted by Nicky G

•

• It seems you can go directly from stock head unit to the amp, but my local installer tried to convince me yesterday I needed a sound processor, Technic on here seems to think that's bull, and I'm keen to agree with him. My local installer was kind of an arse, and seemed like he wanted to sell me way more than I was looking for, all at MSRP. Gimme a break!

• For a sub, it looks like a 10" JL Audio, maybe 10W3v3, in the custom box for it that one of the user's on this board makes and sells for a few hundred bucks. VERY slick, makes it so the sub mounts basically flush on the left side of your trunk, where that little "cubby hole" is.

• You can basically forget about the under-seat speakers, they won't be necessary once you get a real sub. This means your five channel amp will suitably drive the sub, plus four channels of audio, those being the two 4" speakers int he rear deck, and the two 4" door speakers.

• Because the 2010 base audio system doesn't include the triangular door-pillar tweeter mounts for component speakers on the door with separate tweeter, you need to order those from BMW for ~$100 for the pair, IF you want components on the door. This is a good idea!

• For the two door speakers I'm likely going to get the Focal Polyglass 100 VRS components.

• For the two rear-deck speakers I'll probably get the Focal Polyglass cvx 100 coaxial speakers (the tweeter is not discrete, but rather sits int he middle of the woofer area). As the rear speakers are more for "fill" I don't think actual component speakers with a real crossover for a separate tweeter will be necessary.

So that's my plan! I just need to find a local installer I feel good about to set it all up, as this kind of a project is WAY out of my league I have to say.

May I make some comments based on my personal experience.

1. Try to get amps that will accept speaker levels inputs. That way you don't need the LOC and rhus less chance of introducing annoying unwanted noise.
2. I would suggest getting earthquake sws or other slimline woofers for the underseat location. I also have a 12" sub, but even when I turn the sub off the earthquake sws still produce a surprising amount of bass that you can feel. Granted, they don't play that low, but I think 2 of them give just as much as a single 10" JLW3 in a sealed box. The sesond reason for having them is for them to play midbass. I have the focal 100KRS in my 1 series and 100VRS in my X5. They, and any other 4" speakes do not play well at all below 250 or 300hz. So, if you only have the 100KRS upfront, and a 10"sub in the trunk, you will end up with a hole between 100-300hz. If you try to get you sub to play up to 300hz then you will notice that all you bass is coming from the back, with a significant delay, and that will not sound very good.

So, if you want to run the whole thing from a 5 channel amp. I would suggest running the front component speakers and underseat woofers from the 4 main channels, a sub from the sub channel, and leave the rear speakers alone. Just my suggestion.
I for one is very happy with my system, with most of the fast pace beats coming from speakers in the cabin, and really low bass of RNB/hip hop coming from the sub.

[Nicky G]

Thanks for the great tips! When you say "leave the rear speakers alone" do you mean, continue to drive them off the factory head unit, or just take them out of service entirely?

Do you find that having mid-range under the seat is less than ideal because of directionality, that is to say having the speakers coming at you from below?

Thanks for clarifying why the LOC is a good idea as well!

I'll tell you, it's tempting to do a little cutting and put bigger speakers either int he door, or in the rear deck. I'm curious if anyone has taken this approach, so they could use low-profile 5" speakers, or larger even?

[infinitekidM2C]

From my very limited experience...i usually found that changing the stock head unit produced the greatest improvement in sound quality, over speaker changes or amp adds..will chaning this stuff change the sound much...at least in terms of the cost?

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by Nicky G

Do you find that having mid-range under the seat is less than ideal because of directionality, that is to say having the speakers coming at you from below?

If I may chime in real quick - I have been doing quite a bit of research on this issue. Mid-bass below 250 Hz is "omni-directional" which means your ears cannot detect the location of the source.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

From my very limited experience...i usually found that changing the stock head unit produced the greatest improvement in sound quality, over speaker changes or amp adds..will chaning this stuff change the sound much...at least in terms of the cost?

This is true for a large majority of the cars on the market, but only if you also change out the OEM speakers and put in a decent amp. Running a Nakamichi head unit with $2 paper cone "full-range" drivers is not exactly the way to go . On the BMW, the head unit is actually of decent quality but the problem is the speakers and the amp. On these cars the bigger bang for the buck is working on the back end, rather than the front end of the audio system (not to mention the loss of BT, assist, door chimes, steering wheel controls, etc. when you rip out the OEM head unit)

[Nicky G]

Well, I'm on the verge of moving forward, but I can't decide exactly what speaker configuration to go with. I'm leaning toward Focal 4" components in the door and Focal 4" coaxial in the rear deck, with JL 10" sub in the trunk, but I am a bit worried about not having enough mid-range. I know the Focals are good, but there's no defeating physics, and 4" woofers are just, well, small.

Decisions, decisions -- I really wish someone made a 7-channel system!!! Then I could do all six channels, incl. 6.5" or 8" under the seats, PLUS a banging sub in the trunk!

I know there's been some talk that 5" woofers might fit in the doors, with some slight cutting on the inside mounts for the speakers. That would actually be a pretty good option, but, eh, the idea of cutting into anything doesn't do a lot for me...

[Nicky G]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

If I may chime in real quick - I have been doing quite a bit of research on this issue. Mid-bass below 250 Hz is "omni-directional" which means your ears cannot detect the location of the source.

Well, I meant less of a bass speaker and more of a 6.5" standard speaker under the seat. Something you'd put frequencies way above 250Hz through. But having that kind of stuff coming up through your butt -- not really ideal! heheh

[TONYH215]

Originally Posted by Nicky G

I'm right there with ya man! CHeck out a few of the other threads, we've been discussing this quite a bit.

Here is what I'm starting to think about. I also have 2010 with base audio. I dunno, it's not nearly as "bad" as I was expecting. But, I want to FEEL the techno, you know? This car calls for that kind of blissful experience of sheer sound.

• I'm going to keep the factory head unit. Make sure the Smartphone Integration keeps working, etc.

• I'm looking at adding a 5-channel amp, possibly Alpine PDX-5 or Infinity Kappa 5, or MAYBE if I decide to go all-out, the JL Audio HD 900/5. The last one is WAY more than I'm really looking for, and much more expensive, so it's an unlikely option. I'm still trying to learn more about the Kappa 5 and if it's any good. Alpine PDX-5 reviews are... mixed?

• It seems you can go directly from stock head unit to the amp, but my local installer tried to convince me yesterday I needed a sound processor, Technic on here seems to think that's bull, and I'm keen to agree with him. My local installer was kind of an arse, and seemed like he wanted to sell me way more than I was looking for, all at MSRP. Gimme a break!

• For a sub, it looks like a 10" JL Audio, maybe 10W3v3, in the custom box for it that one of the user's on this board makes and sells for a few hundred bucks. VERY slick, makes it so the sub mounts basically flush on the left side of your trunk, where that little "cubby hole" is.

• You can basically forget about the under-seat speakers, they won't be necessary once you get a real sub. This means your five channel amp will suitably drive the sub, plus four channels of audio, those being the two 4" speakers int he rear deck, and the two 4" door speakers.

• Because the 2010 base audio system doesn't include the triangular door-pillar tweeter mounts for component speakers on the door with separate tweeter, you need to order those from BMW for ~$100 for the pair, IF you want components on the door. This is a good idea!

• For the two door speakers I'm likely going to get the Focal Polyglass 100 VRS components.

• For the two rear-deck speakers I'll probably get the Focal Polyglass cvx 100 coaxial speakers (the tweeter is not discrete, but rather sits int he middle of the woofer area). As the rear speakers are more for "fill" I don't think actual component speakers with a real crossover for a separate tweeter will be necessary.

So that's my plan! I just need to find a local installer I feel good about to set it all up, as this kind of a project is WAY out of my league I have to say.

You're pretty much doing EXACTLY what I am on my 2010 135i. I might go with the earthquake subs under the seats as I do not want to waste space. I know you need space to make bass, but I'd rather just utilize the factory spots. Are you going with the 4in Focals all around, or are you going to try to fit something bigger? Let me know how it goes!

[Nicky G]

Looking at the PUBLISHED frequency response of the Focal 4", I think I'll do those on door and in the back, and then do the 10" JL sub in the custom enclosure in the trunk.

I think Polyglass 100 VRS component in the front, Polyglass 100 CVX coaxial in the back. I MIGHT step up to K2 Power 100 KRS in the front, but despite the better sound the frequency response doesn't go as low as the 100 VRS... and I'm not really an audiophile, I just like kicking techno in people's faces, especially my own.

[TONYH215]

Originally Posted by Nicky G

Looking at the PUBLISHED frequency response of the Focal 4", I think I'll do those on door and in the back, and then do the 10" JL sub in the custom enclosure in the trunk.

I think Polyglass 100 VRS component in the front, Polyglass 100 CVX coaxial in the back. I MIGHT step up to K2 Power 100 KRS in the front, but despite the better sound the frequency response doesn't go as low as the 100 VRS... and I'm not really an audiophile, I just like kicking techno in people's faces, especially my own.

haha hell yeah man, you have to. I'm pretty pumped for my system overhaul, I listen to mostly hardcore and the stock system just really can't take that double bass pedal.

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by Nicky G

Well, I meant less of a bass speaker and more of a 6.5" standard speaker under the seat. Something you'd put frequencies way above 250Hz through. But having that kind of stuff coming up through your butt -- not really ideal! heheh

I got rid of the under seat sub and replaced with a 6.5 midbass (part of a 3 way system) when i got the crossover adjust it sound f'n amazing. Completes any holes you have in freq/sound. Adds depth and accuracy of the system

my 2 cents

[Brissie]

[QUOTE=Nicky G;6287746]Thanks for the great tips! When you say "leave the rear speakers alone" do you mean, continue to drive them off the factory head unit, or just take them out of service entirely?

Do you find that having mid-range under the seat is less than ideal because of directionality, that is to say having the speakers coming at you from below?

QUOTE]

I mean just leave the factory speakers as they are, powered by the factiry headunit. You don't need that much sound coming from the rear speakers. The mid bass is coming from under the seats. Most of the vocals are from the front 4" speakers. It is less than ideal , but better than expected. There is no other alternative, unless you want to perform major surgery to the doors and fit 6 or 6.5" speakers there. I would rather compromise and use the factory locations, which still gives a fairly good results, especially if you are not an audiophile. I have both the VRS and KRS, and trust me, they won't play loud at all before distorting if they are asked to play below 200-250hz. I crossed mine at around 300hz. I have the VRS with a 12" sub in the X5, without running underseat woofers. No midbass, missing a wide range of frequency, sounds bad. The 1 series with the 100KRS and Earthquake SWS underseat woofers sounds much better, even if I don't turn on the sub, and that's not because of the KRS. Just my experience.

[Brissie]

Originally Posted by mineo77

I got rid of the under seat sub and replaced with a 6.5 midbass (part of a 3 way system) when i got the crossover adjust it sound f'n amazing. Completes any holes you have in freq/sound. Adds depth and accuracy of the system

my 2 cents

That's another good option. The 3 ways come with midbass drivers, so the 3 or 4" speakers only have to deal with mid range. I gather the Hertz fits? I might have got them instead if I had known that they would be shallow enough to fit under the seats. I believe CDT also has a BMW specific 3 way system that fits. The advantage with going 3 ways is that you can run them off just 2 channels of amp, and you don't need to bandpass the underseat woofer, which most amps aren't capable of doing.

[Nicky G]

I believe Focal makes a three-way incl. 6.5" and 4" plus tweeter. Anybody have the dimensions of what would fit under seat?

[mineo77]

it is really simple for any installer to modify the underseat spot to get the speaker to fit and look stock. The hertz where about 10-15mm deeper, the installer used a speaker rim and sound sound dampening material to make it fit PERFECT.

i left my rear speakers alone, not too worried about them. If i get carried away and somebody gives me $$$ that i have to spend on speakers for my car, maybe i would replace them...otherwise leave them alone.

[solid77]

does anyone know if this thread applies to the 2010 mids?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235953

basically the tweet is plug and play...

edit:
oh nm, you have to have the 2ohm hi fi deck

this seemed kinda cool, but pricey, i do like the plug and play concept though...

http://www.bavariansoundwerks.com/pr...ble-08-E82E88/

[Brissie]

I think if you don't want to spend too much, then IMO, the most effective upgrade is to replace the front speakers with a set of 4" component set which include tweeters, and replace the underseat woofers with earthquake sws or something similar, and power them all from a 4 channel amplifier. It is a simple upgrade that amateur like myself could do, and shouldn't cost too much for it to be professionally installed.

[spun]

I'm new to the forum but I see everyone is fond of JL Audio, not that I'm knocking them but IMO there overpriced for what you get.
If your looking to cut down the price on your system you might want to look at Digital Designs http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp
I've had all kinds of different sub/amp combo's and DD is by far the best I've herd. The price on a 2512 (12" sub) is half of what a W6 would cost you, has the same RMS power handling and in my experiance, the DD's will stand up to alot more punishment, and although the JL's do get loud, the SQ is just not there, is you want bass that you can hear from blocks away the JL's are your sub, if you want good clean sound at all end of the spectrum the DD or even the slightly more expensive RE Audio