BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-04-2013, 11:17 AM   #23
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Please don't take this the wrong way but whenever someone asks what a particular mod does, my first inclination or gut feeling is this person doesn't need it. You should first take the car on track in stock form and then later decide what 'shortcomings' you need to address, if any at all.

With that said, I think Dinan fixed camber plates are a good compromise for street/track duty. You won't get aggressive settings but you'll still be able to dial in -1.5* and the Dinan plates won't impact your warranty (if that's a concern of yours).
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 11:18 AM   #24
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Sorry to revive this thread, and pardon the newbie question ..

My 135i is still under warranty. At the track, I have noticed a lot of understeer with stock suspension, and stock camber, even with very sticky rubber (Bridgestone Potenza RE-011 (225/40R18 in the front and 255/35R18's in the back). Also, my tires outside edge is getting shredded.

Can I get my local shop to adjust the camber at a compromise setting suitable for track+street use, or must I get dedicated camber plates, and adjust them before and after lapping events?

Thanks.
See my post above

Btw camber alone won't help much with the understeer. You'll need more rubber up front + camber.
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 11:25 AM   #25
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Please don't take this the wrong way but whenever someone asks what a particular mod does, my first inclination or gut feeling is this person doesn't need it. You should first take the car on track in stock form and then later decide what 'shortcomings' you need to address, if any at all.
I did take it to the track for 6 sessions in the last two months. I have to admit that my technique is far from perfect (still learning to enter certain curves at the right speed, and take the right lines). Having said this, I am noticing my four tires getting shredded at the outside edges, and this with stock OEM door jamb pressure recommendations, and stock suspension, stock alignment settings. I have slightly larger rubber than OEM RFT (225 versus 215 in the front, and 255 versus 245 in the rear). I have noticed that the pressure raises more in the front tires after a session, so front tires are obviously taking more abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
With that said, I think Dinan fixed camber plates are a good compromise for street/track duty. You won't get aggressive settings but you'll still be able to dial in -1.5* and the Dinan plates won't impact your warranty (if that's a concern of yours).
Thanks. I will look into this option.

Edit: Maybe I should avoid investing in the 135i, and get a 2006-2007-2008 Z4M coupe with the S54 engine. I allways was tempted by this weird looking little 2-seat hotrod.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts

Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-04-2013 at 11:30 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 11:28 AM   #26
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
I did take it to the track for 6 sessions in the last two months. I have to admit that my technique is far from perfect (still learning to enter certain curves at the right speed, and take the right lines). Having said this, I am noticing my four tires getting shredded at the outside edges, with stock OEM door jamb pressure recommendations. I have aslightly larger rubber thatn OEM (225 versus 215 in the front, and 255 versus 245 in the rear). I have noticed that the pressure raises more in the front tires after a session, so front tires are obviously taking more abuse.



Thanks. I will look into this option.
That's your first mistake, those oem pressures on the door jambs are not what you should be running. Tire pressures spike once they get hot, I wouldn't be surprised if you're running 45psi hot. You should play with tire pressures and see what works for you but I typically 30 cold and 37 hot.

Check out the Dinan camber plates, they're on my wish list. Not sure if I'm ever going to track the e82, but if I do that would be my first and only mod (aside from running 245 square).
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #27
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
That's your first mistake, those oem pressures on the door jambs are not what you should be running. Tire pressures spike once they get hot, I wouldn't be surprised if you're running 45psi hot. You should play with tire pressures and see what works for you but I typically 30 cold and 37 hot..
Again, pardon the newbie question, if I go in with low cold pressure, wont I damage the tires even more before they get hot (roll over the sidewalls)?

I will give this a shot next time, but only lower the hot pressure after one session (start with 36 cold, do one session, lower the "hot" pressure back to 36).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Check out the Dinan camber plates, they're on my wish list. Not sure if I'm ever going to track the e82, but if I do that would be my first and only mod (aside from running 245 square).
Will do, but they seem less flexible than Vorshlog, yet I know that the Dinan/BMW partnership would be less troublesome for warranty work.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 11:51 AM   #28
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Again, pardon the newbie question, if I go in with low cold pressure, wont I damage the tires even more before they get hot (roll over the sidewalls)?

I will give this a shot next time, but only lower the hot pressure after one session (start with 36 cold, do one session, lower the "hot" pressure back to 36).


Will do, but they seem less flexible than Vorshlog, yet I know that the Dinan/BMW partnership would be less troublesome for warranty work.
I'm not saying run lower pressures all the time, only at the track. That's why you see guys fiddling with tire gauges in the paddock.

Less flexible because they are fixed. Vorshlag is adjustable. But truth is 90% of guys (me included) who have adjustable camber plates set it and forget it. I don't go back to a street setting. The real added benefit of the Vorshlag or GC plates is that you can run aggressive camber (above 3*) while still playing with caster.
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 01:22 PM   #29
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
I'm not saying run lower pressures all the time,
Im only concerned about lapping at the track. This is where my understeer needs to be fixed, and tire outside edge wear need to be reduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Vorshlag is adjustable. But truth is 90% of guys (me included) who have adjustable camber plates set it and forget it. I don't go back to a street setting. The real added benefit of the Vorshlag or GC plates is that you can run aggressive camber (above 3*) while still playing with caster.
Excellent. Will aim for 2 to 3 degress of negative camber in the front then. Probably go with Dinan to stay dealership friendly.

How about a UUC rear sway bar? Read in another forum that it should be the most inexpensive way to dial out the under-steer without changing camber (stiffen up the back anti-roll bar and you will oversteer more; stiffen up the front anti-roll bar and the car will understeer more).
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 01:27 PM   #30
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Im only concerned about lapping at the track. This is where my understeer needs to be fixed, and tire outside edge wear need to be reduced.



Excellent. Will aim for 2 to 3 degress of negative camber in the front then. Probably go with Dinan to stay dealership friendly.

How about a UUC rear sway bar? Read in another forum that it should be the most inexpensive way to dial out the under-steer without changing camber (stiffen up the back anti-roll bar and you will oversteer more; stiffen up the front anti-roll bar and the car will understeer more).
I understand that, that's why I said you should adjust pressures at the track.

Read my earlier posts, the Dinan fixed plates will only let you dial in about 1.5. If you want more you'll need M3 components but not sure how warranty works with other oem parts.

I refuse to support UUC but that's not here nor there. You really should be increasing the spring rates instead of using the sway as means to stiffen the rear. But if you're willing to go with a UUC sway bar (or any aftermarket component) then you may as well go all out and get the Vorshlag plates. You said you wanted to stick with oem parts that'll be covered under warranty.
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 02:09 PM   #31
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
...If you want more you'll need M3 components but not sure how warranty works with other oem parts.
... You said you wanted to stick with oem parts that'll be covered under warranty.
Speaking of sticking with OEM parts, jsut got off the phone with a local tuning shop, and he came up with a great plan, which also confirms your recommendation.

Plan #1, adjust alignment on OEM suspension to gain ~ 1 degree of negative camber. Try this on the track.

Plan #2, if not happy with Plan #1, order E92 M3 suspension arms for about $400CAD, and 2 hours of labor to gain up to 2 degrees of camber, while sticking with BMW parts, and not voiding warranty.

They went through plan #2 with another customer, who seemed really happy with the results...
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts

Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-07-2013 at 10:16 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 02:17 PM   #32
3002 tii
Lieutenant General
3002 tii's Avatar
2272
Rep
12,560
Posts

Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (99)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Speaking of sticking with OEM parts, jsut got off the phone with a local tuning shop, and he came up with a great plan, which also confirms your recommendation.

Plan #1, adjust alignment on OEM suspension to gain ~ 1 degree of negative camber. Try this on the track.

Plan #2, if not happy with Plan #1, order E92 M3 suspension arms for about $400CAD, and 2 hours of labor to gain up to 2 degrees of camber, while sticking with BMW parts, and not voiding warranty.

They went through plan #2 with another customer.

How cool is that!
Yea the consensus is M3 camber arms + fixed camber plates works nicely for that OEM+ feel. You just now have to balance tire wear when you're not on track but it's always a give and take.
__________________
Follow for latest mods
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 02:20 PM   #33
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for all the help and feedback. Learned a lot from you today. Maybe I will wind up with less understeer, and eventually be less embarassed (by not pointing by the entire group at my next lapping session)

This is the kit from Turner, which my local shop (VAG Motorsport in Quebec, Canada) would get.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-12...t-e82-e9x.aspx

I have booked an appointment with my local tire shop for an alignment on my stock suspension to help with my understeer. Spoke to a specialist who also laps, and he will adjust the front for max negative camber on stock set up (limited range), and also look at toe in front and rear to help with overall balance. I will also lower my front tire pressure next time on the track, in the middle of my session (pit area).

Next phase is E92 M3 control arms, which are cheaper than I thought (~$400 USD). I may attempt this as a DIY, or hand it over to local indi shop.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts

Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-05-2013 at 07:46 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2013, 08:09 PM   #34
Nugget
Colonel
Nugget's Avatar
650
Rep
2,601
Posts

Drives: G81 M3 Touring, GR Supra GTS
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Perth

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 BMW 135i  [10.00]
I endorse Dinan Camber plates and M3 control arms. With a good alignment set to -2.5 camber and zero toe, turn in will be transformed and you shouldn't chew through the tyres.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 06:18 AM   #35
John_01
Colonel
John_01's Avatar
Australia
232
Rep
2,643
Posts

Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (0)

1.5 degrees front camber won't be enough. It will reduce the understeer problem, but you will still destroy the outside shoulder of your front tires. I had that experience using 1.3 degrees and nearly destroyed the front tires. 2.5 degrees should be better.

The car's handling will be a lot more neutral with the front negative camber added - so be careful! It would probably be a mistake to get a rear sway bar now, as it will shift the handling balance significantly and make it more demanding to drive.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 07:26 AM   #36
Kgolf31
Brigadier General
Kgolf31's Avatar
459
Rep
4,531
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (4)

BMWs are weird.

with camber and adding a front sway bar (yes front) you will reduce understeer.

Do not add a rear, as it will make the car tail happy and will want to rotate around on you.

to dial out most understeer, you need to look for around -3*+ worth of camber
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 07:55 AM   #37
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
BMWs are weird. With camber and adding a front sway bar (yes front) you will reduce understeer. Do not add a rear, as it will make the car tail happy and will want to rotate around on you. To dial out most understeer, you need to look for around -3*+ worth of camber
Thanks for your feedback.

I see you added a front strut bar to your Z4M as well. Did you do anything to the front camber settings? Im surprised that such a stiff car and track oriented car needed that too .
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 09:15 AM   #38
Kgolf31
Brigadier General
Kgolf31's Avatar
459
Rep
4,531
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
BMWs are weird. With camber and adding a front sway bar (yes front) you will reduce understeer. Do not add a rear, as it will make the car tail happy and will want to rotate around on you. To dial out most understeer, you need to look for around -3*+ worth of camber
Thanks for your feedback.

I see you added a front strut bar to your Z4M as well. Did you do anything to the front camber settings? Im surprised that such a stiff car and track oriented car needed that too .
The rigidity of the chassis is indeed very stiff, but the spring rates are relatively soft, in comparison to aftermarket springs and what they run.

I'm at -2.2 now with 0 toe upfront and it has greatly increased turn-in response and understeer, but I still have a good about and need to get the front end planted before getting back on the gas.

I have my car setup for oversteer, so I like running a stock bar in the back and I've spent sometime with alignment settings getting it to where I want it so I can rotate the rear predictably when I need (it really helps for autocross).

Our cars need around -3.5 to really eliminate all understeer. I still have massive outside wear and need to flip tires over winter for even wear. I'm limited on what I can do for my car given SCCA Solo rules for autocross, so sadly I cannot run coilovers or camber plates
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 09:19 AM   #39
Kgolf31
Brigadier General
Kgolf31's Avatar
459
Rep
4,531
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (4)

* increase turn in response and decrease understeer.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #40
dcaron9999
Major
dcaron9999's Avatar
Canada
155
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: 2011 135i M package
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mirabel, Quebec

iTrader: (0)

Even though the 2011 suspension was revised with linear springs, I still have a lot understeer with my stock 135i, which is also destroying the outside of my new tires. I exibit and notice most under steer on slow to medium speed tight turns. My setup is 225F/255R Bridgeston Potenza RE-11 highly rated tires (non RunFlats).

I would have preferred 225F/245R but Bridgestone does not produce the RE-11 or RE-11a in the 245 size. I could have gone with a 235/235 square setup, but I was not keen on reducing rears to 235, because I may be looking at increasing HP (Cobb flash tuning on the horizon).

#1 - My first step is to ask my Tire Shop to dial in as much negative camber as possible in the front on stock suspension. I should reach about 1 degree which may not be enough, and next options will be needed.

#2 - I will next upgrade to BMW E92 M3 front upper+lower control arms. Seems like a popular upgrade, but might still not be enough negative camber (1 more degree of camber).

#3 - Camber plates (probably Dinan) to finalize the recipe, and reach a max of 3.0 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber.

#4 - There is also debate on whether adding a beefier front strut bar (M3 or aftermarket) used on stock suspension will actually help or hinder understeering.

Of course I will need an alignment done each time I touch the suspension, so also debating if I should do all (1-2-3-4) at once.

I will likely take it step at a time. Unfortunately, there are only 4-8 more weeks left of lapping season where I live, then winter will be at my door and I will be switching to my winter setup (205-50R17 dedicated BMW style 73 alloy wheels).

I will likely end up waiting until next spring for M3 control arms, and skip step #4 (front sway bar) altogether.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts

Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-05-2013 at 05:30 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #41
Kgolf31
Brigadier General
Kgolf31's Avatar
459
Rep
4,531
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcaron9999 View Post
Even though the 2011 suspension was revised with linear springs, I still have a lot understeer with my stock 135i, which is also destroying the outside of my new tires. I exibit and notice most under steer on slow to medium speed tight turns. My setup is 225F/255R Bridgeston Potenza RE-11 highly rated tires (non RunFlats).

I would have preferred 225F/245R but Bridgestone does not produce the RE-11 or RE-11a in the 245 size. I could have gone with a 235/235 square setup, but I was not keen on reducing rears to 235, because I may be looking at increasing HP (Cobb flash tuning on the horizon).

#1 - My first step is to ask my Tire Shop to dial in as much negative camber as possible in the front on stock suspension. I should reach about 1 degree which may not be enough, and next options will be needed.

#2 - I will next upgrade to BMW E92 M3 front upper+lower control arms. Seems like a popular upgrade, but might still not be enough negative camber (1 more degree of camber).

#3 - Camber plates (probably Dinan) to finalize the recipe, and reach a max of 3.0 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber.

#4 - There is also debate on whether adding a beefier front strut bar (M3 or aftermarket) used on stock suspension will actually help or hinder understeering.

Of course I will need an alignment done each time I touch the suspension, so also debating if I should do all (1-2-3-4) at once.

I will likely take it step at a time. Unfortunately, there are only 4-8 more weeks left of lapping season where I live, then winter will be at my door and I will be switching to my winter setup (205-50R17 dedicated BMW style 73 alloy wheels).

I will likely end up waiting until next spring for M3 control arms, and skip step #4 (front sway bar) altogether.
The RE-11a tires are nice, but not the best high performance tire out there. They do have harder sidewalls to help counter the stock suspension cambers, but I've driven RE-11a on a CS Miata and wasn't too impressed. They tend to grab, and then release in the middle of a turn.

As well, on cold tires you'll not get the grip at all from any high performance tire. When I talk about cold, that is DD temperatures. I can spin my RS3s through 2nd gear on my Z4m with just daily driving. Once I get to temp the grip on another level. Just something to think about.

The sway bar will only help with camber. If you can't dial out the front wheels you'll notice more understeer. The sway bar will also help keep the wheels from reducing camber when under load.


Soft spring rates with poor camber is an equation asking to chew up tires, kind of nature of the beast.


The question is though, how much are you really chew up your outside of the tires daily driving?
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 06:25 PM   #42
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
140
Rep
2,234
Posts

Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [8.90]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
The sway bar will only help with camber. If you can't dial out the front wheels you'll notice more understeer. The sway bar will also help keep the wheels from reducing camber when under load.
this is not the case for macpherson strut equipped cars like the 135.
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 06:37 PM   #43
Kgolf31
Brigadier General
Kgolf31's Avatar
459
Rep
4,531
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
this is not the case for macpherson strut equipped cars like the 135.
Under high deflection Macpherson struts start to gain positive camber (reducing cornering grip). On strut cars there's a fine line between limiting the deflection through an anti-roll bar to maintain negative camber/grip and adding too much bar and losing overall cornering grip.

With a normal McPherson strut that hasn't been lowered, the camber goes from positive to more negative as the lower A arm swings out straight, and then back to positive as it swings up. That swing up into positive camber is BAD. At that point the chassis is already leaned over so the tire may be starting to roll onto its sidewall. Changing the camber even more positive is just nasty. A big sway bar will prevent the body roll in the first place, and prevent the suspension compression on the outside which causes the positive camber change relative to the chassis.


Lastly, you'll usually see BMWs lifting wheels off the ground with a big front bar. Typically, this is bad since you're losing a wheel and starting to do a tricycle...but the weight lost on the front gets transferred to the rear wheel on the same side of that car, which results in more grip on the back wheels which means you can power out.

Appreciate 0
      09-05-2013, 06:51 PM   #44
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
140
Rep
2,234
Posts

Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [8.90]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Under high deflection Macpherson struts start to gain positive camber (reducing cornering grip). On strut cars there's a fine line between limiting the deflection through an anti-roll bar to maintain negative camber/grip and adding too much bar and losing overall cornering grip.

With a normal McPherson strut that hasn't been lowered, the camber goes from positive to more negative as the lower A arm swings out straight, and then back to positive as it swings up. That swing up into positive camber is BAD. At that point the chassis is already leaned over so the tire may be starting to roll onto its sidewall. Changing the camber even more positive is just nasty. A big sway bar will prevent the body roll in the first place, and prevent the suspension compression on the outside which causes the positive camber change relative to the chassis.


Lastly, you'll usually see BMWs lifting wheels off the ground with a big front bar. Typically, this is bad since you're losing a wheel and starting to do a tricycle...but the weight lost on the front gets transferred to the rear wheel on the same side of that car, which results in more grip on the back wheels which means you can power out.

I am not familiar with the Z4M but I think they are not mcpherson strut and maybe double wishbone? either way, a bigger front ARB on our 135 actually induces more understeer. this is a known fact. although the benefits of less body roll out weights that drawback. the heavy deflection takes a toll on soft side walls unless you dial in a lot of negative camber. btw, I liked you mid-ohio hpde video. love to visit that track one day. looks like a lot of fun and high speed
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST