Best Damper Setup for DD

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

In this case, anyone who has upgraded to just Koni yellows with the proper adjustment will agree they are just as comfortable as stock. FSDs would be dramatically more comfortable than stock.

Disagree. More importantly, Tirerack's professional, objective, back to back test disagrees. Strongly.

They rate the yellows as slightly worse ride than stock. The FSDs as substantially better than stock. Crucially, they rate handling of the yellows and the FSDs as essentially equal. If they had stiffened the yellow settings, they no doubt would have handled better than the FSDs. But the ride discrepancy between the yellows and the two other choices would have increased. They, like me, were interested in the balance between ride and handling, rather than maximizing handling.

If you just want to retain the stock springs, and tweak simple things like bushings and front antiroll bar. I think the FSDs are a no brainer. Nobody who limits their mods to those is looking for maximum performance. The FSDs are hardly the weak link in that kind of setup. If you want to do more extensive suspension modifications, they are not a choice.

I thought the OP was in the limited mods group. After his comments on the KW coilovers, I'm no longer sure about that.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Where did u buy your inserts? Absolutely no one has them now.

I got my Powerflex inserts here, the harder ("race") version. Their website says they're available. You'll need one set of the 419s and one set of the 421s.

http://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/p...ries-2008.html
http://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/p...011-clone.html

[swagon]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

Every time I think I know what direction to go with my suspension, I read a thread like this and it makes my head hurt.

Now when it comes down to actually choosing which one to buy, I might just flip a coin or go with whatever is the cheapest at the time.

Exactly.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

I got my Powerflex inserts here, the harder ("race") version. Their website says they're available.

http://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/p...2010-2012.html

Is this for the rear subframe? I thought u needed 4.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Is this for the rear subframe? I thought u needed 4.

Edited to fix my mistake.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

Edited to fix my mistake.

thanks!

I am a mess man... i want these but if the m3 bushings r so much better w low nvh... this thread had made things harder . haha

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by ASAP

thanks!

I am a mess man... i want these but if the m3 bushings r so much better w low nvh... this thread had made things harder . haha

I think the softer inserts are good, unless your bushings are shot. Which they may be. I think the full bushings are better. I think the harder inserts fall in between. Once again, unless your bushings are shot.

How much better are the full bushings? Worth the additional cost? Another guess. Everyone is going to like what they personally have. And it depends on the condition of the existing bushings.

But for ride (my specialty <grin>) I don't think any of the choices are bad.

Of course, taking the word of some random guy on the Internet, like me, is always risky. Seriously.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

Every time I think I know what direction to go with my suspension, I read a thread like this and it makes my head hurt.

I think at this point, going with Koni Yellows or Bilstein HDs are about a wash. For more comfort, go with the Koni FSB's.

Now when it comes down to actually choosing which one to buy, I might just flip a coin or go with whatever is the cheapest at the time.

If you want performance, there are some resources. Best would be to get a full package from a professional, like BMW, or Dinan, or TC Kline. Some of the people here seem to have more competition experience than others.

If you want a balance of ride/handling, it's much harder. Among other things, some (many?) people actually like a stiffer ride because it makes them feel like they're driving something serious. I spent a lot of time on research, then guessed. The FSDs were actually the choice I had the most confidence in, because of the Tirerack test, and my trust in Koni.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I would define my car as a track setup and it rides fine.

A track setup doesn't have to compromise ride quality.

I agree(clearly as we are running similar setups), but we are well out of that budget. Also, there are much more dedicated track setups than what we are running.

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

Disagree. More importantly, Tirerack's professional, objective, back to back test disagrees. Strongly.

They rate the yellows as slightly worse ride than stock. The FSDs as substantially better than stock. Crucially, they rate handling of the yellows and the FSDs as essentially equal. If they had stiffened the yellow settings, they no doubt would have handled better than the FSDs. But the ride discrepancy between the yellows and the two other choices would have increased. They, like me, were interested in the balance between ride and handling, rather than maximizing handling.

Throw whatever adjectives at it that you want, every single person I know who has FSDs and has pushed them has found them completely lacking. I'm not debating the comfort, but rather I am illustrating the costs that it brings.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Throw whatever adjectives at it that you want, every single person I know who has FSDs and has pushed them has found them completely lacking. I'm not debating the comfort, but rather I am illustrating the costs that it brings.

Somebody else who disagrees. A little more credible than "everyone I know."

"Koni FSD are the shocks in a Lamborghini Gallardo and Mr Ceccarani Technical Ditrector said they took the ride/handling to a new level. That will do my BMW thanks."

I imagine most of your friends are interested in suspension mods that don't retain the stock springs, also.

I can play this game forever. My hours of research on the Internet found that a large majority of FSD experiences on the Net were favorable, IF they retained the stock springs.

"03 bmw 325ci - I was initially worried that, despite the promises, they would make the car ride like an old Buick: soft, mushy and floaty. That is definitely not the case. When I drove away from the shop that did the install, my immediate impression was that they were significantly stiffer than the stock shocks. The car feels tighter, lower to the ground (even though it isn't), and just more stable and controlled in general. The difference is especially noticeable when cornering and changing lanes - the FSDs allow a lot less initial body roll than the stock sport shocks."

"I installed the koni fsd shocks with standard springs. Big improvement in corners, on fast roads and at low speeds. And a lot of more comfort in comparison to the standard shocks. I am satisfied. Thats what I wanted."

"The FSD's are a whole other animal altogether. They're simply a great shock for OEM springs or something very mild like the Pro-Kit (which they've been approved for use with)."

"I used both on my C5 and kept the Koni FSDs and have them on my C6. The Bilstein Sports for a daily driver were harsher than I wanted, they will work better with a lowered car than the Koni's. Both were very good when pushed into the limits, with the Koni's responding quicker on entry and exit to a turn and both kept me planted in a turn. I have driven 1000kms after this mod and am all praise for the Konis. I currently have 50k on our Koni's and I will get another set when they give up the ghost for our daily driver."

"As expected, the Koni Sport (yellow) was harsh on the rough roads, but on the autocross it handled like a dream. Unexpectedly, the stock suspension was fairly stiff too. The ride comfort was rated as fair and handling average. When we hopped into the FSD-equipped car, we were extremely surprised at its comfort. It was the difference between night and day on the hard bumps, and the handling was excellent. The dampers responded better than stock and were more forgiving than the Sport on the autocross. FSD not only improved ride comfort but handling as well."

"Well, I installed them yesterday and the wallowing ride is gone! The car feels a million times more planted, the ride is just the right degree and kind of firm, and yet the car absorbs road bumps and potholes a lot better. In sum, it's a better handling and more assured ride , yet a more comfortable one."

"I ran my FSDs for over 4-years and 40k miles, drove other BMWs through the period, nothing matched the balance and refinement of my setup, until adaptive came along and moved the game on. The closest feel was from the Jaguar XF suspension, which we know set the bar high for a decent ride and handling balance. It all depends what a user is after, the FSD won't be for everyone, like the Mercedes agility suspension won't be. But for a decent comfort/handling balance I'd like to know what does it better from a simple damper change."

"All I can say is amazing--AMAZING! The manufacturer claims are not exaggerations. The incredible thing is that the car corners NOW as it should have all along."

All completely consistent with the professional and well documented Tirerack test.

I understand they don't suit your driving style <grin>.

[TheSt|G]

So far, not a single one of your reviews refutes my statement...

[chris82]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Got a chance to drive a car w KW streets as well as the m3 subframe bushings... wow it felt solid.

I've always heard good things about the street comforts both from shops and members on e90post. It seems like they are a great way to go.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I would define my car as a track setup and it rides fine.

A track setup doesn't have to compromise ride quality.

I 2nd this! My current setup takes bumps better than stock actually

[pj.rodriguez]

Koni yellows and swift springs. What do people think of that?

Also any objections to the higher spring rate swifts for the 3 series on a 1 series?

[02rsxpilot]

To the OP, I'd start with bushings or inserts before I did anything in terms of damping. The bushings are the weakest part of the car, used by BMW to help offset the harshness of the RFTs for the lowest common denominator drivers. The problem with this forum is almost everyone that has done the bushings also does sway bars and coilovers and M3 arms, etc... at the same time, so there isn't much info out there that can definitively describe the impact each individual component has had on the driving experience (which would still be subjective but at least would have high correlation, unlike the multiple upgrade cases).

For the record, TC Kline's article on the 1er suspension recommends fixing the bushings issue before changing anything else. TC Kline article. See page 2 for the wisdom on bushings.

[lastMleft]

Originally Posted by 02rsxpilot

To the OP, I'd start with bushings or inserts before I did anything in terms of damping. The bushings are the weakest part of the car, used by BMW to help offset the harshness of the RFTs for the lowest common denominator drivers. The problem with this forum is almost everyone that has done the bushings also does sway bars and coilovers and M3 arms, etc... at the same time, so there isn't much info out there that can definitively describe the impact each individual component has had on the driving experience (which would still be subjective but at least would have high correlation, unlike the multiple upgrade cases).

For the record, TC Kline's article on the 1er suspension recommends fixing the bushings issue before changing anything else. TC Kline article. See page 2 for the wisdom on bushings.

+1

[TwinTurboed]

Originally Posted by 02rsxpilot

To the OP, I'd start with bushings or inserts before I did anything in terms of damping. The bushings are the weakest part of the car, used by BMW to help offset the harshness of the RFTs for the lowest common denominator drivers. The problem with this forum is almost everyone that has done the bushings also does sway bars and coilovers and M3 arms, etc... at the same time, so there isn't much info out there that can definitively describe the impact each individual component has had on the driving experience (which would still be subjective but at least would have high correlation, unlike the multiple upgrade cases).

For the record, TC Kline's article on the 1er suspension recommends fixing the bushings issue before changing anything else. TC Kline article. See page 2 for the wisdom on bushings.

+2

Honestly, forget the inserts. Do them once and do them right, go with M3 or poly bushings! I have the Whiteline inserts and I am not really impressed.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboed

+2

Honestly, forget the inserts. Do them once and do them right, go with M3 or poly bushings! I have the Whiteline inserts and I am not really impressed.

Stock, my car's back end would jump sideways over an even mild bump in brisk, but not 10/10, cornering. With Powerflex race (hard) inserts, it tracks perfectly in that situation. The difference is large.

As with most every mod, some people like inserts, some don't. I separate DDs from cars that will be autocrossed/tracked. For the latter, full bushings are the way to go, even though they're either expensive to get installed, or a bit hard for some to install themselves. For a DD, maybe not.

[TwinTurboed]

@128Convertibleguy

My rear end felt tight when I first did the inserts and the wiggle slowly started creeping in. I had to re-torque the subframe bolts and it felt tight again. Now a month later, the wiggle is back.

Are you having to re-torque your subframe bolts every once in a while?

[chris82]

Makes more financial sense doing it all at once. More exciting component by component.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboed

@128Convertibleguy

My rear end felt tight when I first did the inserts and the wiggle slowly started creeping in. I had to re-torque the subframe bolts and it felt tight again. Now a month later, the wiggle is back.

Are you having to re-torque your subframe bolts every once in a while?

No. Are they "one time use" bolts? I had my mechanic replace those, they stretch when tightened and simply will not keep tightness once loosened, no matter how you tighten them.

[TwinTurboed]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

No. Are they "one time use" bolts? I had my mechanic replace those, they stretch when tightened and simply will not keep tightness once loosened, no matter how you tighten them.

I have not heard that they are stretch bolts. But I feel like one would be better of replacing them because they are holding the subframe and they have a high torque rating.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by 02rsxpilot

To the OP, I'd start with bushings or inserts before I did anything in terms of damping. The bushings are the weakest part of the car, used by BMW to help offset the harshness of the RFTs for the lowest common denominator drivers. The problem with this forum is almost everyone that has done the bushings also does sway bars and coilovers and M3 arms, etc... at the same time, so there isn't much info out there that can definitively describe the impact each individual component has had on the driving experience (which would still be subjective but at least would have high correlation, unlike the multiple upgrade cases).

For the record, TC Kline's article on the 1er suspension recommends fixing the bushings issue before changing anything else. TC Kline article. See page 2 for the wisdom on bushings.

When people talk about the bushings, are they referring to mostly the rear subframe bushings? I mean there are a lot of bushings on the suspension.