HPFP failure due to lack of lubrication in fuel...

[Alext]

I was reading a post on the E90 forum stating that BMW UK believe the lack of incidences of HPFP failure in the UK is due to the smaller amounts of ethanol in their fuel over there. Apparently higher concentrations of ethanol in fuel decreases its lubricating properties thereby affecting fuel pumps. Would a fuel additive (most contain 'lubricants') help?

[MOCKBA]

If it is true, then the pump is simple bad designed. All other cars including turbo engines (like Volvo) do not have such problem with any fuel quality.

[PC Valkyrie]

What would be considered a "smaller amount" of ethanol in fuel?.....up to 10%??

[Qunadry]

Perhaps it is the water that ethanol can bring along with it. Ethanol is water soluble. The former ketone oxygenating fuel component was water insoluble.

[Lester]

Sounds like a corny excuse to me.

[Raflekt]

i have a friend ( Mexico ) who has failed his HPFP and we dont have any ethanol in our gasoline

[Lester]

Originally Posted by Raflekt

i have a friend ( Mexico ) who has failed his HPFP and we dont have any ethanol in our gasoline

Tequila, same thing....

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by MOCKBA

If it is true, then the pump is simple bad designed. All other cars including turbo engines (like Volvo) do not have such problem with any fuel quality.

They also do not have a fuel pump running 1,000+ PSI to direct injectors.

Also, if you are going to site VW with their direct injection, they have a problem with HPFPs as well.

[jkp1187]

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm

The Great Ethanol Scam:

Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers....


An Unpublicized Trend

Though the media is ignoring it, one can easily find many stories on BMW (BMWG.DE) blogs relating similar problems with fuel systems damaged by the use of ethanol. Certainly that was the case with Christi Jordan and her 2007 Mini. For weeks it was difficult to start; Moritz BMW in Arlington, Tex., inspected it and found severe carbon buildup inside the engine. On her second trip to the mechanics they decided to test the ethanol content of Christi's fuel and found it was much higher than the federally mandated limit of 10%. This time the fuel pump had been destroyed by the ethanol. The repair bill came to $1,200: As in all cases where vehicles are damaged by ethanol, legally the factory warranty no longer applied.

Jim Keppler, Moritz's fixed operations director, said he's had at least 10 other cases of ethanol poisoning in Minis over the past six months. Christi was one of the lucky ones; Moritz covered her repairs. But there's no telling how many motorists across the nation have had to pay for fuel pumps, or fuel systems, that ethanol damaged. Most were probably unaware of the real culprit behind the breakdown, because virtually no repair shop tests the level of ethanol in the gasoline when these fuel system problems occur.

And there are active lawsuits from boat owners; ethanol broke down the resins in their fiberglass gas tanks, destroying their marine engines. Additionally, those who deal in small gas engines for lawnmowers, edgers, and weedeaters have quickly learned that, as Briggs & Stratton's (BGG) Web site warns, "Ethanol-blended gasoline can attract moisture, which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage. Acidic gasoline can damage the fuel system of an engine while in storage. B&S strongly recommends removing ethanol-blended fuels from engine during storage."

Like motorists, if landscaping tool owners put gasoline with more than 10% ethanol in their small engines, that immediately voids any factory warranties. In the case of the Lexus recall, using just a 10% ethanol blend was found to be destroying many of these engines also.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

They also do not have a fuel pump running 1,000+ PSI to direct injectors.

Also, if you are going to site VW with their direct injection, they have a problem with HPFPs as well.

GM doesn't have any issues with HPFP failures on its direct injected engines in the US.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

In the case of the Lexus recall, using just a 10% ethanol blend was found to be destroying many of these engines also.

That's complete and total BS. The Lexus recall was to address a fuel leak, not engine damage.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/lexus+ethanol/

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That's complete and total BS. The Lexus recall was to address a fuel leak, not engine damage.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/lexus+ethanol/

Obviously, you have a different definition for the phrase "complete and total" than what's traditionally used. It's clear that Ethanol is damaging Lexus vehicles, from the source you cited.

Originally Posted by Autoblog Green

Ethanol fuel with low moisture content has the potential to corrode the inside of the fuel delivery pipes in some Lexus vehicles, including GS300/350, IS250/350, and LS460/460L models from 2006, 2007 and 2008 model years. The problem, which can create a pinhole leak in the pipes, has caused Lexus to announce a safety recall of about 214,500 vehicles. First-class letters will be sent to Lexus owners who might have vehicles that may be affected by this problem, and Lexus dealers will replace, at no charge, their pipes with newly-designed components. No other Lexus or Toyota vehicles are part of this recall. There's a phone number after the jump to call if you have questions.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

Obviously, you have a different definition for the phrase "complete and total" than what's traditionally used. It's clear that Ethanol is damaging Lexus vehicles, from the source you cited.

There a HUGE difference between a pinhole fuel leak, and "destroying many of these engines also" which is what was said previously.

Ethanol damages rubber and plastic components, not engines. Nothing changes internally on an E85 capable engine, except the fuel injectors are upsized. The rest of the changes are to the fuel delivery system.

Speculation on the fuel pump failures is one thing, but telling people that ethanol is "destroying engines" is an outright lie.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

GM doesn't have any issues with HPFP failures on its direct injected engines in the US.

I was unaware of GMs use of DI. Whoops.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

There a HUGE difference between a pinhole fuel leak, and "destroying many of these engines also" which is what was said previously.

Ethanol damages rubber and plastic components, not engines. Nothing changes internally on an E85 capable engine, except the fuel injectors are upsized. The rest of the changes are to the fuel delivery system.

Speculation on the fuel pump failures is one thing, but telling people that ethanol is "destroying engines" is an outright lie.

And how does this pinhole propagate itself in the first place? Ethanol maybe? Oh, wait... the article you cited above actually says that...

[Alext]

'Destroying engines' is a bit broad.

All I know is that the manual recommends not using Ethanol in more than 10% concentrations.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

And how does this pinhole propagate itself in the first place? Ethanol maybe? Oh, wait... the article you cited above actually says that...

Ethanol causing pin holes in a fuel line do not equal "engine damage" in any sense of the word, and there's no point in spreading lies and misinformation about its effects on engines. The Lexus recall was the result of an engineering screw up. Every fuel system designer on the planet knows their components are going to be subjected to 10% ethanol in the US, and designing a system that suffers a dangerous failure when the mixture is higher than it's supposed to be is idiotic.

Also, the 10% ethanol content in fuel was to replace MTBE (which is a known carcinogenic groundwater pollutant). Personally, given the choice between a fuel system failure, or cancer, I'll take the fuel system failure.

Ethanol as a primary fuel doesn't make much sense to me, but as an additive to reduce knock, it's the best alternative out there.

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Ethanol causing pin holes in a fuel line do not equal "engine damage" in any sense of the word, and there's no point in spreading lies and misinformation about its effects on engines. The Lexus recall was the result of an engineering screw up. Every fuel system designer on the planet knows their components are going to be subjected to 10% ethanol in the US, and designing a system that suffers a dangerous failure when the mixture is higher than it's supposed to be is idiotic.

Also, the 10% ethanol content in fuel was to replace MTBE (which is a known carcinogenic groundwater pollutant). Personally, given the choice between a fuel system failure, or cancer, I'll take the fuel system failure.

Ethanol as a primary fuel doesn't make much sense to me, but as an additive to reduce knock, it's the best alternative out there.

You and jkp1187 are the only ones saying anything about engine damage. Everyone else here is talking about fuel system components being damaged due to ethanol which is water soluble and causes corrosion of said components because of this.

[cagekicker]

Originally Posted by MOCKBA

If it is true, then the pump is simple bad designed. All other cars including turbo engines (like Volvo) do not have such problem with any fuel quality.

i have to agree with you.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MadMan77

You and jkp1187 are the only ones saying anything about engine damage. Everyone else here is talking about fuel system components being damaged due to ethanol which is water soluble and causes corrosion of said components because of this.

And (in case you weren't paying attention) the post of mine you took issue with was in response to his post about ENGINE FAILURE.

I NEVER said ethanol doesn't damage improperly designed fuel system components. As a matter of fact I said exactly that in the post that you quoted!

[MadMan77]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

And (in case you weren't paying attention) the post of mine you took issue with was in response to his post about ENGINE FAILURE.

I NEVER said ethanol doesn't damage improperly designed fuel system components. As a matter of fact I said exactly that in the post that you quoted!

Whoops. I guess I am a little bit off today.

[imported_mega]

I've been wondering if it was not something like ethanol for quite some time, it makes sense, it could be our higher sulfur content too

I wonder if bmw UK was supposed to leak out the suspected link to ethanol

There are significant changes to the e85 fuel systems on vehicles designed for it, the stuff is pretty corrosive

[emm3tt]

Originally Posted by Lester

Sounds like a corny excuse to me.