26 people were killed in a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I know, and you know what kind of weapons I'm talking about. You think there is no compromise?

Again, I have nothing against guns, I simply try to find a compromise. People dig in on both sides of the issue, so what's the point of discussing it anyway. :

This.

People are so intent on "winning" the argument, we sometimes fail to open our minds a bit.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by MP0WER

You may be surprised by that statistic. Hundreds of millions of rounds are fired each year shooting targets. A minuscule amount of those rounds are fired with intent to kill.

Roughly the same amount of passenger cars legally on the roads in the US as their are legally purchased guns.

That's why the statistic I was asking for was related to time (time spent shooting and time spent driving). I think I read somewhere that the average American spends 500-600 hours per year in a vehicle. I suspect that the average American (gun-owners and non-gun-owners, aggregated) spends significantly less than that per year firing guns.

# of rounds fired is irrelevant since there's no equivalent metric for vehicle driving (perhaps # of vehicle operations? like making a turn, making a stop, pressing foot down on accelerator, etc.).

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by schoy

That's why the statistic I was asking for was related to time (time spent shooting and time spent driving). I think I read somewhere that the average American spends 500-600 hours per year in a vehicle. I suspect that the average American (gun-owners and non-gun-owners, aggregated) spends significantly less than that per year firing guns.

# of rounds fired is irrelevant since there's no equivalent metric for vehicle driving (perhaps # of vehicle operations? like making a turn, making a stop, pressing foot down on accelerator, etc.).

How about miles traveled?

[Litos]

Texas Governor is an asskicker !!!!


http://www.click2houston.com/news/Pe...k/-/index.html

NORTH RICHLAND HILLS, Texas - Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicated Monday that he supported allowing teachers and administrators to carry concealed handguns in response to the Connecticut school shooting that left 20 children and six adults dead.

Local school districts should decide their own policies, Perry said. But if someone has obtained a concealed-handgun license, he said, "You should be able to carry your handgun anywhere in this state."

He clarified that private property owners should be allowed to impose their own restrictions.

Perry was asked about calls for stricter gun control laws Monday at a Tea Party forum in North Richland Hills, a Fort Worth suburb.

Perry said that he believed lawmakers should consider mental health issues as well as ways to make schools safer.

"It appears that this was a young man who was very disturbed," Perry said.

When Perry talked about how he had read about one district allowing teachers, administrators and others to carry weapons, he was interrupted by loud applause from the crowd.

Perry has already directed Texas school districts to review their emergency operation plans in the wake of the massacre. His voice broke and he paused several times as he first acknowledged Friday's shootings, calling them a tragedy that "is not right."

"One of the things that I hope we don't see from our federal government is this knee-jerk reaction from Washington, D.C., when there is an event that occurs, that they come in and they think they know the answer," he said.

Some former and current educators said they support the idea of allowing guns on campus, but admit there could be issues.

Houstonian Larry Cullen said, "The biggest problem of course, they'd have to have it well concealed where no one cold take it off their person like a student."

The President of the Houston Teachers Union said there are other more effective ways to protect students, like limiting access.

Gayle Fallon said, "At most schools, there are multiple entrances that are open and you just go in and wander around, which is not a good thing."

"I think it's a horrible idea. Arming police and putting them on campus is fine. They are trained to use a weapon. A lot of teachers wouldn't want to be armed. We have a lot that don't want to hold a gun in their hand. I think the last thing we need is to have more guns on campus," Fallon said.

No school districts in the Houston area allow guns on campus, including those with concealed-handgun licenses. There are currently no plans to change that policy, district officials said.

The Harrold School District in northwest Texas has allowed an undisclosed number of teachers and staff members to carry concealed handguns to work. The superintendent said it enhances student safety.

[uberschnell]

Since people are so intent on dragging auto accidents into the discussion I thought you might find this interesting.

Gun Deaths are on track to surpass car fatalities by 2015.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...152632492.html

[Litos]

thank you Texas, for being so awesome.

goddammit - i freaking love this state.

hopefully in the future the entire state of Texas will follow suit....


http://www.click2houston.com/news/No...i/-/index.html

North Texas school district allows teachers to carry guns

HOUSTON - A North Texas school district allows its teachers to carry guns in class as long as they have a concealed handgun license, and the superintendent said he wouldn't have it any other way.

The Harrold Independent School District is near Wichita Falls. The nearest law enforcement agency is 30 minutes away. So Harrold ISD superintendent David Thweatt said guns are allowed for everyone's protection.

"My goal is if someone tries to come in and hurt my little ones that they are killed," Thweatt said. "We need to be here to protect our children -- not four or five minutes or six minutes from now. We need to protect them now."

In 2007, the district adopted a policy called the Guardian Plan. It has four components, but essentially, teachers who have a concealed handgun license can carry a gun with them to school.

In the five years it has been in place, Thweatt said there have been no incidents at the school. He attributes that to the extra security measures they have taken.

"It's like seeing a clock in the room, not even on your mind, you just know that it's there," a student said.

"I like it because it kind of makes me feel safer because I mean, we don't have a police station here," student Madison Templeton said.

"I don't have any issues with it at all. If one of those guys gets into the school, he's met with an armed resistance," said Michael Hopkins, a student's father.

"My mantra has been this -- as school personnel with children here, we are our first responders," Thweatt said.

State rep. Debbie Riddle is considering introducing legislation to allow licensed teachers to carry guns in school.

No southeast Texas school districts allow guns on campus, even with a concealed weapons license.

[ScarecrowBoat]

Originally Posted by Litos

thank you Texas, for being so awesome.

goddammit - i freaking love this state.

hopefully in the future the entire state of Texas will follow suit....


http://www.click2houston.com/news/No...i/-/index.html

Teachers carrying guns is the most ludicrous load of crap I have ever heard. I wouldn't even be comfortable as a student knowing my teachers could have guns, let alone as a parent.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat

Teachers carrying guns is the most ludicrous load of crap I have ever heard. I wouldn't even be comfortable as a student knowing my teachers could have guns, let alone as a parent.

tell that to the parents of 20 kids in Connecticut.

good luck with that............

[Augenbrauezug]

Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat

Teachers carrying guns is the most ludicrous load of crap I have ever heard. I wouldn't even be comfortable as a student knowing my teachers could have guns, let alone as a parent.

Growing up in Texas, it's hard for me to understand why that would make you uncomfortable. Teachers go through extensive background checks, I'd feel totally fine with my child at a school where there was the possibility of teachers being armed. Besides, around here, there are so many CCL holders that there is pretty much someone 'packing heat' no matter where you are. Would you be for, or against, armed security guards at school?

[Litos]

yeah, in Texas, you have to me in the mindset that at least 5-7% of people around you have concealed handgun licenses.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug

Growing up in Texas, it's hard for me to understand why that would make you uncomfortable. Teachers go through extensive background checks, I'd feel totally fine with my child at a school where there was the possibility of teachers being armed. Besides, around here, there are so many CCL holders that there is pretty much someone 'packing heat' no matter where you are. Would you be for, or against, armed security guards at school?

First, teachers are placed in potentially day-to-day high-stress situations where the use of lethal force should not be the primary (let alone secondary) reaction to that stress (unlike a police officer).

Second, it's too easy for teachers to misplace their guns when they're distracted by 20-30 kids, each doing their own thing.

Third, you're putting guns within reach of emotionally-charged, probably-less-than-rational chidren.

I would be for security guards, because their sole job is to protect (and they can focus on protecting the school); a teacher's primary job is to teach, which is hard enough without putting a gun in their hands. I also would be for giving teachers access to non-lethal weapons. Might not have helped in this case, but it's better than nothing and at least would have given the teacher/admins killed in this case something to fight back with (i.e. better than going in there unarmed).

[Litos]

Originally Posted by schoy

Might not have helped in this case,

how could you say that !?!?

it definitely would have helped.

kid shot the principal first and then her admin immediately upon entering the school.

if they had guns, they wouldn't have tried to stop him by saying "stop shooting".

after those first two shots were fired, i would have expected 2 or 3 other armed teachers to come out of their offices wondering WTF was going on.

would have potentially saved 20-23 lives that day....

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by schoy

First, teachers are placed in potentially day-to-day high-stress situations where the use of lethal force should not be the primary (let alone secondary) reaction to that stress (unlike a police officer).

Second, it's too easy for teachers to misplace their guns when they're distracted by 20-30 kids, each doing their own thing.

Third, you're putting guns within reach of emotionally-charged, probably-less-than-rational chidren.

I would be for security guards, because their sole job is to protect (and they can focus on protecting the school); a teacher's primary job is to teach, which is hard enough without putting a gun in their hands. I also would be for giving teachers access to non-lethal weapons. Might not have helped in this case, but it's better than nothing and at least would have given the teacher/admins killed in this case something to fight back with (i.e. better than going in there unarmed).

In TX you see, they are allowing anyone who has a CCP to carry in the schools. The idea about concealed weapons is that they are concealed. Kids would not know if the teacher had a weapon or where it was on their person. The teacher would always know where their weapon was because it would remain on their person 100% of the time. This would be voluntary as well. I would hope that they would have the teacher take some type of proficiency test prior to allowing them to carry in school though.

I'm not saying i'm for this, mainly because the skill set of a teacher/care giver is not usually parallel to that of someone who can focus under pressure, not to mention pull the trigger when needed. However, most women in a leadership positions, do very well under pressure. Example is how teachers stayed calm while gathering their kids into restrooms, closets, etc... while keeping them quite.

I do believe that lives would have been saved if someone on that campus within a 30 second walk had and was proficient with a firearm or less than lethal weapon.

[Litos]

here's the deal - don't think that there will be many upper 50's older women with CHL's to begin with.

the CHL carriers, who are also teachers, will probably be in their upper 20's and into their early 40's.

if you have a CHL and DECIDE to take it to school, odds are favorable that you know how to keep your composure in a classroom setting.

and odds are extremly favorable that you would be able to stop or deter someone from murdering children and faculty members on your watch.....

[solefald]

I don't know if I agree with teachers carrying in schools. Even if it is concealed, if you are carrying it in the same building, with the same people on daily basis someone will notice. And do not underestimate the power of little shits who decide to get their hands on it.

I am all for trained armed guards who's only job is to protect the children. Let teachers teach.

[Litos]

how about like a "loss prevention" person who sits in a completely covered room monitoring classrooms, parking lots and cafeterias ??

if some shit goes down, he comes out guns a blazing.

there should be one person on duty the entire time.......

maybe an off duty detective or senior member of the local city or county police department ??

not some uneducated sloppy security guard that just sits there waiting for his tiny paycheck.....

[Augenbrauezug]

Security guards at every school is a good idea until the budget comes up.

[solefald]

Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug

Security guards at every school is a good idea until the budget comes up.

I'm pretty sure there are ways to fund school security, even if it will require a tiny increase on your local taxes. I am pretty sure most people would not mind paying couple of dollars more "in the name of children". After all taxpayers already fund Firefighters and Police.

Or maybe have off-duty volunteer police officers who get tax breaks for working school security and maybe even teach classes to educate children on firearm safety and self-defense.

I also kinda like "loss prevention" idea that Litos has. A desired side affect of this could be a decrease in bullying, since there is going to be someone watching entire school at all times.

[Augenbrauezug]

Originally Posted by solefald

I'm pretty sure there are ways to fund school security, even if it will require a tiny increase on your local taxes. I am pretty sure most people would not mind paying couple of dollars more "in the name of children". After all taxpayers already fund Firefighters and Police.

Or maybe have off-duty volunteer police officers who get tax breaks for working school security and maybe even teach classes to educate children on firearm safety and self-defense.

I also kinda like "loss prevention" idea that Litos has. A desired side affect of this could be a decrease in bullying, since there is going to be someone watching entire school at all times.

Agree 100%, and don't mistake me as saying that I don't think there should be school security because of lack of school funds.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by Litos

how could you say that !?!?

it definitely would have helped.

kid shot the principal first and then her admin immediately upon entering the school.

if they had guns, they wouldn't have tried to stop him by saying "stop shooting".

after those first two shots were fired, i would have expected 2 or 3 other armed teachers to come out of their offices wondering WTF was going on.

would have potentially saved 20-23 lives that day....

You didn't read closely apparently. I was referring to non-lethal weapons, not guns.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by MP0WER

In TX you see, they are allowing anyone who has a CCP to carry in the schools. The idea about concealed weapons is that they are concealed. Kids would not know if the teacher had a weapon or where it was on their person. The teacher would always know where their weapon was because it would remain on their person 100% of the time. This would be voluntary as well. I would hope that they would have the teacher take some type of proficiency test prior to allowing them to carry in school though.

I'm not saying i'm for this, mainly because the skill set of a teacher/care giver is not usually parallel to that of someone who can focus under pressure, not to mention pull the trigger when needed. However, most women in a leadership positions, do very well under pressure. Example is how teachers stayed calm while gathering their kids into restrooms, closets, etc... while keeping them quite.

I do believe that lives would have been saved if someone on that campus within a 30 second walk had and was proficient with a firearm or less than lethal weapon.

You're talking about kids that spend hours a day with a teacher, every day for 8 months. Year after year. All it would take is one kid to find out that the teacher carried a gun. And if you publicize the fact that one or more teachers were carrying (via law, via school policy, etc.)? Kids will find out even quicker. And, yes, you'd have to publicize it because parents would demand to know which teachers were carrying.

I don't disagree that some teachers can be trained to carry in a classroom environment, but I think it would be an easier/safer fix to just hire or appoint someone to be a full-time security guard. And to make it less of a boring job, they could even have primary responsibility for developing school safety procedures, practices and drills. Could be a decent gig.

[amanda hor$t]

Originally Posted by schoy

I don't disagree that some teachers can be trained to carry in a classroom environment, but I think it would be an easier/safer fix to just hire or appoint someone to be a full-time security guard. And to make it less of a boring job, they could even have primary responsibility for developing school safety procedures, practices and drills. Could be a decent gig.

just give guns to the narcs (walkie talkie hall guards)