first 2 day at Watkins Glen

[eightcount]

I have run a few single day hpde events at other tracks but my first 2 day at Watkins Glen is coming up. Is there anything I should be thinking about or preparing for differently because it is a 2 day event?

[pixelblue]

Check your brakes for wear and bleed. Torque your lug nuts. Check your tires for wear and blisters. Check all your fluids & get plenty of rest. common sense stuff...

[GaryS]

Is Watkins Glen the one with armco barriers? You know what they say - don't look at them, look where you want to go.

I've done only 2 day events so far. At my level, the first day is for learning something new or learning the track if that's new, and the second day is for getting consistent. I often go to sleep frustrated after the first day, and then wake on the second day knowing I can do it.

[lithium1330]

The Glen is a great track and I think you'll like it. It's my 2nd fav, after Mt Tremblant.
If this is your first time out, it's critical to listen to your instructor and learn the lines. It's complex track, but there are some interesting turns and a couple of them don't give a lot of room for error (e.g., turn 6 can be intimating at first -as you come in on a right hand sweeper after the "bus stop", hit brakes at turn 6 (not a lot of run-off), quick left into the chute).
Personally, I love turn 2 up the 90' climb to the top. Mastering turn 1 will set you up to carry a lot of speed all the way to bus stop.

Enjoy and drive safe!

[Groundpilot]

OP, are you going to WGI with bmcca Boston chapter? If yes, i will be there with my AW 135i (carbon fiber hood, trunk lid) this wedn. and thursday. If its your first time at this track you are going to love it. My fav. track by far. If you see me i will be happy to answer your questions

[larryn]

I'll be there with the GVC chapter on Fri-Sun. Can't get the mid-week time off to go with my home chapter, though both the GVC and Boston chapter pull off top-notch events.

I agree with the others on this thread.. WGI is a phenomenal track, but the hardest on brakes of any track I've ever been on. Have fresh high-temp fluids, and a spare set of pads, if possible. You will have a freaking blast. If you are also there this weekend, see you soon! I'm in my AW 135i.

[larryn]

Got back LATE last night from the Glen. A-Mazing time! I definitely improved my line and time, and pushed myself a bit more to be at the limit more. Friday it rained and rained, from noon throughout the rest of the day. A lot of cars wound up with either mechanical or armco-induced body rearrangement on Friday (moreso than I've ever seen at a single day at an event).

Saturday turned out to be damp in the morning, but they did put out the jet drier before we went out. So, the standing puddles were no longer there, from the overnight torrents. Since I was in the first run group (A Solo), we dried the course out for everybody else. From there on out it was dry and increasingly warmer and stickier out there, with bright sun and close to 80 for Sunday.

There were two 1Ms there, and four 135i's there running. One of the 135i's was nearly a twin to mine, and after it (unfortunately) lost control coming around the heel of the boot, it went into the armco on the passenger and rear, doing very significant damage, including really messing the rear suspension. I know they took the driver away by ambulance, and I hope they are okay!!! Everybody thought it was me, since we had the same car/wheel combo.

Regardless, being in A Solo, I was able to run in both the A/B run groups, plus the instructor run group. That allowed for 6 sessions on Sat, 7 on Sunday... including back to back sessions that made those an hour of seat time each. I chose to do 15-20 min sessions, pitting out 10 mins before the session ended to save my brakes and not exhaust myself.

What an awesome event though. Great times, friends (including my new ones), learning experience, and venue. Mucho thanks to the GVC Chapter for providing yet another top notch event!!


Come to think of it, this should prob be a new thread.. Doing that now.

[Groundpilot]

Came back from the Glen on thursday night and also had a fantastic time. More i learn this track more i realize what an amazing track it is. Met OP of this thread Pete from new jersey, very nice guy, was parked right next to me in the garage. Unfortunately we were running in different run groups and i coudnt test my skills against another 135i. I was assigned to an advanced gruop(i still dont understend is advanced group A?). Apparently every driver of every group other than instructors has to run the first session with an instructor no matter how good you are and based on their decision you are signed off and run in solo group. It was my first time running with bmwcca and i have to say my last one. Here is why. The event was very well organized but i was surprised how strict their rulels are. I was black flagged numerous times for things that other clubs dont even notice. My instructor was a very nice guy and i learned a few things from him. He sighned me off after the first session and after that i was running with a solo group and instructos at the same time. This instructor liked my car very much and came back to ride with me for 2 more sessions. I think he had a lot of fun in 135i They gave us a ton of track time on wednesday- 8 30 min. sessions and the same on thursday. First day was nice and dry but it rained over night and the track was wet in the morning. I had to sit out first 3 sessions because of my r-comp tires and my street tires are too soft for any kind of performance driving. After getting so much practice time i improved my lines and mainly my braking technique that is important on this very fast road course. I was impressed once again with my upgraded brakes(SRF fluid, DTC70/60, power slut vented rotors, cut and bent break dust shields). I was able to hold 110 mph in the esses and exiting esses at almost 125 mph hitting 140 mph(stock engine for now)before the braking zone. Toward the end of the second day i had so much confidence in my car that i was braking at 350 mark before the bus stop. For those who is familiar with this track, they know how late braking this is. Lap after lap i had no hint of brake fading. So i think this set up is great, not as good as BBK, but good enough for HPDE. 135I is a great car if set up properly, i am very impressed by this car and got a lot of compliments between sessions. In two days nobody passed me except for open wheel race car who came to practice. Overall i had a blast and cant wait to get back to WGI.

[eightcount]

Thanks to all who replied with advice and info. The Glen is an awesome track, I had a blast working on my line and learning what my 135 can really do! And of course there is much more for me to learn. Turns out I warped my rotors. I'm left wondering if I did something wrong or is stock fluid, pads and rotors just not meant for WGI. I did experience brake fade a couple times when I was really pushing it. Still I took the cool down lap easy and never parked with the e-brake. That I'll need to look into but if anyone has thoughts on the subject I'd love to hear them.

Thanks again David, I appreciate the help/advice on the track.

[Groundpilot]

Hey Pete, if your pads are street break pads, its most likely you have an uneven deposits of pad material on the rotors that causes vibration when braking. Uneven pad deposits can be easily removed from rotors by using a pad compound that is more abrasive at lower temperatures. I had this problem on my e46m3 a few years ago. I used track pads(PFC 01) to fix it. Have not used street pads on the track since.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

It was my first time running with bmwcca and i have to say my last one. Here is why. The event was very well organized but i was surprised how strict their rulels are. I was black flagged numerous times for things that other clubs dont even notice.

Any examples?

(Although anecdotally, I do believe this to be true).

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by jkoral

Any examples?

(Although anecdotally, I do believe this to be true).

I was expecting that question. Sure, i can give you a few examples.
First black flag came in the beginning of the first session. I have iCarbon hood and they thought my hood was opened. And it came after the long and slow tech inspection.
During the drivers meeting they told us to stay on the right side when entering the track "do not cross the yellow line". I was black flagged for going over the last portion of the yellow line, not crossing it.
During the classroom seminar they told us "if you see a late point by and take it, do not pull in front of the the slower car and brake, just stay in line and take off racing line". I was forced to do that many times because i was getting late point bys and had no choice but overtaking them in the corner. Chief instructor, i forgot his name came to talk to me twice between sessions, telling me that a lot of drivers are complaining about my agressive driving. And told me to dial it down. Instead of telling them to look in the rear view mirrors and give point bys sooner he is telling me to slow down Later one of the instructors told me that this guy is a pain in the ass.
Another black flag came when i went over the curb at the apex of the first corner. Didnt spin, my right wheels were still on the track. Later they told me that this club considers it as two wheels off. On the other hand i was surprised to see so many slow drivers in advanced group and instructors. I am not saying that i am so good, or my car is so great, just my observation. I do drive very hard when on the track, 10/10th most of the time, and at the end of the day my feeling was that drivers like me are not welcomed there.

[DriveHard]

David,

Not knowing you, i think it is not you but the venue that you have choosen to drive 10/10ths at..

An HPDE is by design an educational / untimed / instructional event. SCCA is world renouned for their safe carfule planned driving events. Thats how they get to maintain their insurance for alot of other events.

You need to get into Time Trialing... this is usually done thru racing organisations like EMRA (easter motorsports racing organization), NASA, TrackDaze and the such..

as much as you dont think so,
a) curbs are an indication of the apex, and are there to protect you from the grass / infield...just because its there, that doesnt make it "track surface".. personally since i run stock sport suspension that is soft enough, i love the curbs and hit the ones that matter all the time...

b) although you were pointed by....YOU have to be 100% sure you will complete the pass and not end up diveboming the corner... if you dive bomb the corner, you did not have enough time to pass and you should have lifted.. Think about this... the last thing i want or need to worry about when im out for a nice exciting track day with my Daily Driver!!! is to worry if some car is gonna loose it in the corner and wipe us both out... its just not worth it.. the plastic trophy is great and all, but not work the body work...

I run with EMRA, they are racers that offer timetrialing ( and transponders also so you can check your times) .....thats where you want to Run ..

They have rules.. they inforce rules... im even a volunteer corner worker. if you act unsafe, they will let you know..

look them up.. www.emraracing.org next event 2 days at Summit point..( actually last event for the season Nov 12/13 sat and sunday $300.00 bucks !!!

Regards,

Alex

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

It was my first time running with bmwcca and i have to say my last one. Here is why. The event was very well organized but i was surprised how strict their rulels are. I was black flagged numerous times for things that other clubs dont even notice.

Originally Posted by DriveHard

An HPDE is by design an educational / untimed / instructional event. SCCA is world renouned for their safe carfule planned driving events. Thats how they get to maintain their insurance for alot of other events.

You need to get into Time Trialing... this is usually done thru racing organisations like EMRA (easter motorsports racing organization), NASA, TrackDaze and the such..

as much as you dont think so,
a) curbs are an indication of the apex, and are there to protect you from the grass / infield...just because its there, that doesnt make it "track surface".. personally since i run stock sport suspension that is soft enough, i love the curbs and hit the ones that matter all the time...

b) although you were pointed by....YOU have to be 100% sure you will complete the pass and not end up diveboming the corner... if you dive bomb the corner, you did not have enough time to pass and you should have lifted.. Think about this... the last thing i want or need to worry about when im out for a nice exciting track day with my Daily Driver!!! is to worry if some car is gonna loose it in the corner and wipe us both out... its just not worth it.. the plastic trophy is great and all, but not work the body work...

I run with EMRA, they are racers that offer timetrialing ( and transponders also so you can check your times) .....thats where you want to Run ..

They have rules.. they inforce rules... im even a volunteer corner worker. if you act unsafe, they will let you know..

look them up.. www.emraracing.org next event 2 days at Summit point..( actually last event for the season Nov 12/13 sat and sunday $300.00 bucks !!!

Regards,

Alex

Not to insult any BMWCCA members (I am one #325037) but they ARE more strict at their events sometimes to the detriment of "Fun factor". For this reason most of the crew I run with usually do PCA(Porsche Club of America) events. Their prices (at least in my experience) were lower, they were strict but not unreasonably so, they realize it is a HPDE but know that most of us want to go fast (seriously do most of us go just to learn the limits of our car better? ), and they have FUN. That is just my .02. There are many other Car Clubs out there and their rules will likely be slightly different as well. Check out: www.clubregistration.net
It lists most of the events happening around the country from myriad different Car Clubs and groups (even some privateer team track rentals where they offer an "open" format to help them pay for the track time, these tend to have less cars participate and maximum track time)

[blotto649]

From a student perspective, I appreciate the intense focus on safety with the BMW club schools. I track my DD as I don't have time or money to look after a dedicated track car, and as DriveHard said, the worst would be getting into something with another car that made an overly aggressive move.

I don't know the chief instructor very well (Bill O'Neill) but I do know that Friday was a bit of a gong show with incidents which are VERY out of the ordinary, particularly for the GVC chapter. This put him on edge for the rest of the weekend, which is likely why you got a hard time from the corner marshals (as Bill brought it down on them).

Finally, that run group was HUGE, and I heard from more than a handful of individual guys that the number of cars made them a little uneasy that weekend. You can't fault guys for running slowly, even if they are A-solo or Instructors - everyone has a right to run at their own pace.

If I get a late point-by that I'm not entirely comfortable taking, I just get on their ass even harder at the exit and really take 'em down on the next one

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by blotto649

From a student perspective, I appreciate the intense focus on safety with the BMW club schools. I track my DD as I don't have time or money to look after a dedicated track car, and as DriveHard said, the worst would be getting into something with another car that made an overly aggressive move.

I don't know the chief instructor very well (Bill O'Neill) but I do know that Friday was a bit of a gong show with incidents which are VERY out of the ordinary, particularly for the GVC chapter. This put him on edge for the rest of the weekend, which is likely why you got a hard time from the corner marshals (as Bill brought it down on them).

Finally, that run group was HUGE, and I heard from more than a handful of individual guys that the number of cars made them a little uneasy that weekend. You can't fault guys for running slowly, even if they are A-solo or Instructors - everyone has a right to run at their own pace.

If I get a late point-by that I'm not entirely comfortable taking, I just get on their ass even harder at the exit and really take 'em down on the next one

VERY good points

[larryn]

Originally Posted by blotto649

Finally, that run group was HUGE, and I heard from more than a handful of individual guys that the number of cars made them a little uneasy that weekend. You can't fault guys for running slowly, even if they are A-solo or Instructors - everyone has a right to run at their own pace.

I was in that huge Instructor and A Solo run group, and I heard Bill at the drivers meeting as to the details of black flags. The turn 1 curbing was mentioned each morning as a definitive black flag situation (on Friday, they were even more harsh, saying it would cause you to be sitting out for the day). The other thing they clearly mentioned was the blend line from the pit, causing a no-questions-asked black flag for the driver.

I understand that rules are strict, but they were there because of safety, knowing the groups were huge. I heard them clearly, and simply obeyed them.

The other thing was that since the sessions were generally 25-30 mins, I waited a few minutes to go out, which minimized the cluster at the start. We had 7 sessions on Sunday, so I still had ridiculous amounts of track time anyway.

[Hobdul]

Originally Posted by M3 09 AND135I 11

Hey Pete, if your pads are street break pads, its most likely you have an uneven deposits of pad material on the rotors that causes vibration when braking. Uneven pad deposits can be easily removed from rotors by using a pad compound that is more abrasive at lower temperatures. I had this problem on my e46m3 a few years ago. I used track pads(PFC 01) to fix it. Have not used street pads on the track since.

I had the same issue as Pete. I ran two hard days at the Glen in July, fairly warm out, and had pedal and steering feel indicating rotor warp. The first dealer tech that looked at it said that there was not warping, so perhaps there was pad depositing--I was running stock pads. The symptoms remained, so I convinced the dealer to replace the rotors under warranty. I didn't get a chance to look closely at the rotors after the symptoms appeared to see whether there was pad depositing (and didn't even know that was a possible cause until after the rotors were replaced).

Regardless, the Glen is damn hard on brakes, but a ton of fun.