chilly summit point scca weekend

[pixelblue]

guys if you want real race pads you want pagids. expensive but worth it. they make only one compound for our cars. RS29 fronts run $400+. getting some cold air to the rotors will help everyone no matter the compound

[GaryS]

If it was available, I'd choose PFC06. It has way more stopping power than the DTC30s I tried, which was enough for me, and reputation for extremely smooth feel, and it lasts very long.

edit: About Pagid, here's a comment someone posted on the Grassroots review:

My experience with Pagid RS-29 pads on other track cars is also very good, but they cost more than double what the Hawks cost

[pixelblue]

Gary, what car were you using it on?

[GaryS]

Sorry Kori, I wasn't clear. I haven't tried the PFC06. I meant I know from reviews and specs that it has much higher friction than the DTC30s I tried. And I know also from reviews and talking to people that it lasts much longer than most other race pads.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I don't think it's available for our brakes.

adding: Grassroots did a brake pads test a few months ago. PFC01 beat DTC70/HT10 by a fraction. They wondered why Hawk didn't send them DTC70 rears and speculated that might win.

raceshopper.com shows them as an option for our cars if only for the fronts.. I was just wondering, I'm extremely happy with my DTC70/60 setup, bet never hurts too much to try different.

Thanks for the feedback

[joeo]

Joe, I am running ferrodo ds2500 with performance rotors, .5mm TI shields and castrol SRF

Three 135's go to Summit point - two have brake issues, one doesn't....You're not having burned boots, discolored calipers, or rotor problems. So, it's either:
1. BMW Performance rotors.
2. Pads.
3. Driving style.

I don't think it's 3, but that could certainly be a factor - so that leaves pads or rotors. Could the BMW rotors cool that much better? They are cross drilled/slotted like these - right?

[GaryS]

It seems Kori's brakes held up fine when he used Cool Carbon pads with stock rotors, so I don't think it's the holes in his rotors that made a difference. The thing that was different this time was the RacingBrake rotors on our cars. The shop I took my car to suspects a "bad batch" of RB rotors. I don't really know what that means.

About technique, you know from riding with me that I was previously too cautious and not very aggressive with threshold braking. This time using race pads I felt very confident and was braking late and hard. I was careful every time to start with a momentary medium-hard press on the pedal before standing on it because I had some instructors who told me to do that. Also, the pedal effort needed for threshold braking with these pads felt like a third to one-half what was needed with Cool Carbon pads. That's about all I can say.

[Focusedintntions]

Another big factor is Kori is running 17 inch wheels with Rcomps. Less rotating mass for the brakes to stop. Also the weight of the car makes a big difference. Without a driver I know my car weighs 3537 lbs with 1/2 take of fuel...with me and a full tank easily over 3800lbs

[Lubo]

Originally Posted by Focusedintntions

Another big factor is Kori is running 17 inch wheels with Rcomps. Less rotating mass for the brakes to stop. Also the weight of the car makes a big difference. Without a driver I know my car weighs 3537 lbs with 1/2 take of fuel...with me and a full tank easily over 3800lbs

WOW that is a lot of weight. I got mine weighted. It was 3470 with full tank, lots of junk in trunk and a baby seat that I swear weighted a ton. Car was early 09 build with premium,sport and cold weather...

[Focusedintntions]

I was really surprised at the weight when the car got corner balanced. What surprises me is that I have much lighter wheels and tires along with a coil over suspension....would have though that would have reduced the weight.

I have all the options bmw offered on the car minus idrive...maybe thats why.

[pixelblue]

I think there are several factors involved here. first it seems my car is much lighter than Chris' car. my car weighed in at 3250 with half tank with my track wheels/tires. second those light wheels/tires as Chris mentioned reduce so much rotational mass that helps with braking and handling. third and probably most important, I am certainly not as aggressive with the brakes than Chris. I think the combination of all of these factors has contributed to Chris and Gary's brake issues this last time at the track.

Joe, my advise is to give your self a little extra space for braking and remember not to trail brake. keep in mind you're not in a race and there's no reason to stress your car beyond it's capabilities. beyond that make sure you have either castrol srf or motul rbf fluid, titanium shims, bended shields and decent pads

[GaryS]

I wonder if you guys can advise me on the melted dust boots. I don't want to spend more money until I have a plan for these brakes that's going to work.

So what happens if I ignore the melted dust boots for a while? Is brake fluid going to squirt out or leak? Will I have a brake failure while driving? Am I going to break something else if I don't replace them?

[pixelblue]

Gary, unless you're planning on upgrading to BBK I would say repair the dust boots. there's no rational reason to drive the car with damaged components.

[GaryS]

Well that's it. A few people have given up and installed BBKs, and we've never heard them complain about the brakes again. But I'm not close to making that decision, there are so many factors to consider. So I'd like to wait on the dust boots if I can. I don't mind putting my track season on hold for a while, but I don't want a dangerous situation on street.

[pixelblue]

I say repair the dust boots and just back off a little bit on braking and you should be fine.

[Focusedintntions]

The dust seals are just that...seals to keep out dust and dirt from possibly scoring the pistons. Are you going to do immediate damage to them...probably not. Eventually though they could get scratched up enough to have a leak. You'll wear out the inner seals faster and could get debris in the brake fluid. Repairing the dust seals is fairly easy, but its pointless to put in another set that'll melt the next track day. We need a high temp set of silicone ones vs the rubber. Warren sent me this in an email

"We are developing an upgrade rebuild program for 135i calipers with stainless steel pistons and high heat seal/rubber. From the attached pictures you can see one piston already broken from the used caliper that I purchased."

[pixelblue]

Chris, that's great! btw, did you get in touch with RB? curious what they had to say

[Focusedintntions]

I did Kori and I've been email pictures of my rotors and pads to them and going back and forth. I'm waiting on a response from them now. I'm keeping pictures and anything regarding our convo pretty close right now till they have time to review it all. No need to toss stuff up on the forums where it can quickly turn into a flame war for no reason and drag a company's name through the mud. Figure give them time to do the right thing and research what could be an issue w/o worrying the forums

[Groundpilot]

Focusdintntions, what is the issue with your RB rotors?
Do they have deep grooves, high and low spots after using them with brand new DTC-70 pads?
I received these rotors about two weeks ago and have not installed them yet, but am very sceptical after your and Garys revew.
I like to brake very late and am very agressive like you, so i am not sure about RB rotors now.
Maybe it was a bad batch of rotors. Maybe they are too soft for track application? Did you and Gary order them at the same time?
Lots of questions, hope folks from RB chime in and help us understand whats the problem.

[Focusedintntions]

David,
I'll post up more information about all of that with pictures once a conclusion is reached by RB. In the meantime I'd say don't be afraid to use them. Go ahead and enjoy them while you can. I'm curious to see what yours look like after a weekend. If it's just Gary and I or the rotors as a whole so far. You aren't going to get a catastrophic failure or anything, just some abnormal wear patterns.

[Groundpilot]

Good rotors should not have abnormal pattern after using them with good new pads. The surface should be nice and flat with a very thin layer of pad material.
I used power slut rotors last season and was very happy with them.
I thought RB two piece rotors would be a nice upgrade, because they run cooler due to the design, and power sluts are 2 pounds havyer than stock ones.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Focusdintntions, what is the issue with your RB rotors?
Do they have deep grooves, high and low spots after using them with brand new DTC-70 pads?
I received these rotors about two weeks ago and have not installed them yet, but am very sceptical after your and Garys revew.
I like to brake very late and am very agressive like you, so i am not sure about RB rotors now.
Maybe it was a bad batch of rotors. Maybe they are too soft for track application? Did you and Gary order them at the same time?
Lots of questions, hope folks from RB chime in and help us understand whats the problem.

David, my rotors shipped on 11/14. After 7x20 minutes on track, they have many deep grooves and have been pronounced dead. My car is still at the shop where I left it on Tuesday, so I don't have pics yet. As I understand it, the damage on Chris's rotors is very different. We don't really know anything yet.