NOT a track car..

[TX78666]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

This was a discussion earlier on the thread. I honestly don't understand how you can translate any of what's done on a track to the street. Unless you're talking about slaloms, wet pads, etc?

Easy. When I start on the far left side of the track, come across the apex of a right-hand turn at 80 mph, and take a nice smooth line back to far left, I tell myself "you know, you need to not do that on the street."

Similarly, when I take a tight, 180 curve, and the whole car starts to drift a bit, and I'm feathering the throttle, to try to coax a little more control out of the car, I tell myself, "on the road, if I were doing this and a child ran in front of me, I wouldn't be able to do a thing to avoid him/her."

Stuff like that.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by TX78666

Easy. When I start on the far left side of the track, come across the apex of a right-hand turn at 80 mph, and take a nice smooth line back to far left, I tell myself "you know, you need to not do that on the street."

Similarly, when I take a tight, 180 curve, and the whole car starts to drift a bit, and I'm feathering the throttle, to try to coax a little more control out of the car, I tell myself, "on the road, if I were doing this and a child ran in front of me, I wouldn't be able to do a thing to avoid him/her."

Stuff like that.

If you're doing either of those on the road you're breaking the law and being irresponsible... So unless you're going to blatantly do that there's no point in the track experience..

On the road there are lanes and there are speed limits. If you stick to both (which you should) then I don't see how track experience helps.

[TX78666]

Originally Posted by AudiS4

A few examples:
1- losing traction in a turn or lane change on a wet or slippery road - learning to subtly countersteer to maintain control. same motion as managing your slip angle around a turn on a track
2 - emergency braking - learning the subtly of braking hard enough to stop before you hit the car in front of you , but not so hard so that you get rear-ended . Same motion as learning to manage the initial brake pedal pressure and the subtle last second lift before or while initiating the turn. (Not being a "gorilla" on the brakes)
3- and most important - at the Audi and BMW schools you learn that you are responsible for the safety of your co-participants. I find after track events I am more concerned with how my driving actions impact the saftey of the other drivers on the road. But maybe that's just me. (I think I need to do another track event soon ! )

Actually, those are pretty good. #2 is a good one, although it is a habit I already had, from not getting killed on motorcycles. #1, not so much. Maybe getting better at reading feedback from the car, so that you don't get to the point where you are losing traction. Regaining control is good. Maintaining control is better.

[TX78666]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

If you're doing either of those on the road you're breaking the law and being irresponsible... So unless you're going to blatantly do that there's no point in the track experience..

On the road there are lanes and there are speed limits. If you stick to both (which you should) then I don't see how track experience helps.

Please re-read, more carefully.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by AudiS4

A few examples:
1- losing traction in a turn or lane change on a wet or slippery road - learning to subtly countersteer to maintain control. same motion as managing your slip angle around a turn on a track
2 - emergency braking - learning the subtly of braking hard enough to stop before you hit the car in front of you , but not so hard so that you get rear-ended . Same motion as learning to manage the initial brake pedal pressure and the subtle last second lift before or while initiating the turn. (Not being a "gorilla" on the brakes)
3- and most important - at the Audi and BMW schools you learn that you are responsible for the safety of your co-participants. I find after track events I am more concerned with how my driving actions impact the saftey of the other drivers on the road. But maybe that's just me. (I think I need to do another track event soon ! )

Number 1 doesn't make sense to me because I don't see how if you stick to legal limits you'd ever spin out. Unless you run into something like oil on the street, which is much different and something that you don't learn in the track.

Number 2 I absolutely agree with and if you look at previous discussions I personally think that's the one very useful thing I take out of the track: to know how fast my car can stop and how to best do it.

Number 3 is interesting.. if you stick to the law to begin with you shouldn't need to be in a track to be reminded of this?

Good points anyway

[3liter1]

Originally Posted by TX78666

Actually, those are pretty good. #2 is a good one, although it is a habit I already had, from not getting killed on motorcycles. #1, not so much. Maybe getting better at reading feedback from the car, so that you don't get to the point where you are losing traction. Regaining control is good. Maintaining control is better.

Overall, what I learned as I got better on the track is the extaordinary subtlety in braking and steering that the experts have. And I think that translates strongly to the street (but in a subtle way !)

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by TX78666

Please re-read, more carefully.

lol right but do you really need to go out on a track to figure out that on the streets you shouldn't start on the leftmost lane, cut through the apex at 80mph then take nice smooth line to the far left ?

and as for the child example I thought that was kind of funny.. so did tracking teach you to just run him/her over instead of slamming the brakes to at least have the impact be at a lower speed?

[TX78666]

No, I was just being sarcastic, until AudiS4 made me think that there may be some practical application.

I suppose tracking did teach me that there are worse things in the world than flying off into the dirt/grass, to avoid a crash. That would probably come in handy in the kid in the street scenario. Of course, again from the motorcycles, I am almost instinctively looking for alternative paths at all times.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by TX78666

No, I was just being sarcastic, until AudiS4 made me think that there may be some practical application.

lol woops.

I think his second point is the one learning you take from the track.


It's just that honestly in the entire time I've been driving, which has been many years, when adhering to all laws and speed limits I have yet to experience a situation where the car escapes from my control and I am able to avoid a disaster due to something that I learned on the track..... it's just so different that I have trouble applying anything from one to another.

The useful things I would like to learn are to abruptly dodge an object at high speeds and learn how to minimize danger/damage, how to regain control upon hitting oil, and controlling the car on snow. Neither of those you learn on the track... Or at least let's hope not.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

It's just that honestly in the entire time I've been driving, which has been many years, when adhering to all laws and speed limits I have yet to experience a situation where the car escapes from my control and I am able to avoid a disaster

Consider yourself blessed. It can happen. And I've seen it.

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

The useful things I would like to learn are to abruptly dodge an object at high speeds and learn how to minimize danger/damage, how to regain control upon hitting oil, and controlling the car on snow. Neither of those you learn on the track... Or at least let's hope not.

There are courses for those scenarios as well.

[N55_BBM]

yeah what I meant is that I don't think my skills learned in the track every helped me control the car when it escapes from my control, given that i'm adhering to laws and speed limits. if you're going outrageously fast.. well then yes then track experience obviously helps

but yeah, anyway, this is getting too long lol

[adrean8j]

There is more to learning on the track than "car control". Not everyone may have those everyday skills on the regular road honed to a "T" like you may have or people may have taken them for granted:

1. Looking ahead.....looking at the car in front of you...and through him in anticipation of any trouble...or in higher levels...a passing opportunity.

2. Goes hand in hand with above: avenues of escape (already been mentioned I think). As a motorcycle rider myself and others have mentioned they do this as a matter of fact. Many, however, do not ride motorcycles and they will have to learn this on the track.

3. One lesser looked at benefit (at least for me it was) is to trust your tires more....they can actually take and grip wayyyyy more than the typical laymen believes. With that confidence, tempered by common sense, one may be able to come out of a dicey situation on the road a little better.

4. to continue that theme: trust your brakes more. It is amazing the actual stopping power our brakes have (maybe not lap after lap after lap for some people, but in everyday driving with the brakes not cooked). It wasn't until after my first HPDE that I realized you can basically STAND on these brakes and the car will shed speed waaaay faster than I realized it could. Good thing to know on the street given the amount of other crazy drivers out there.

That is just a touch of what I feel could be learned or dare I say relearned during a HPDE.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

There is more to learning on the track than "car control". Not everyone may have those everyday skills on the regular road honed to a "T" like you may have or people may have taken them for granted:

1. Looking ahead.....looking at the car in front of you...and through him in anticipation of any trouble...or in higher levels...a passing opportunity.

2. Goes hand in hand with above: avenues of escape (already been mentioned I think). As a motorcycle rider myself and others have mentioned they do this as a matter of fact. Many, however, do not ride motorcycles and they will have to learn this on the track.

3. One lesser looked at benefit (at least for me it was) is to trust your tires more....they can actually take and grip wayyyyy more than the typical laymen believes. With that confidence, tempered by common sense, one may be able to come out of a dicey situation on the road a little better.

4. to continue that theme: trust your brakes more. It is amazing the actual stopping power our brakes have (maybe not lap after lap after lap for some people, but in everyday driving with the brakes not cooked). It wasn't until after my first HPDE that I realized you can basically STAND on these brakes and the car will shed speed waaaay faster than I realized it could. Good thing to know on the street given the amount of other crazy drivers out there.

That is just a touch of what I feel could be learned or dare I say relearned during a HPDE.

alright I give up, this one was good.

[Experimental]

[scorcherjf]

Am I crazy for considering selling the 1 and buying a RX-8? =\

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

Am I crazy for considering selling the 1 and buying a RX-8? =\

YES

[N55_BBM]

yeah that car's crap lol

[pixelblue]

Car has no torque but a really nice chassis. If they were crap they wouldn't be racing them in the grand am series

[scorcherjf]

Yea that's what I'm saying... don't mean to derail the thread but the car has a superior chassis to the 1 hands down. After more and more track days you kind of realize the shortcomings of the 1's platform that can't be remedied no matter what mods you do. But ya the RX8 would need a turbo/supercharger or a different engine drop in, then it'd be perfect... except for the reliability issues of FI on a rotary =\

Originally Posted by pixelblue

Car has no torque but a really nice chassis. If they were crap they wouldn't be racing them in the grand am series

[Roen]

Where the 1 is about making speed at the exit of a corner, the 8 is about carrying speed all the way through the corner.

However, FI will be an awesome add to the 8.

[MD Designs]

Originally Posted by ianf2002

this a stock track car?... maybe not a track car as it falls apart at the end

this thread was saved thanks to this video.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by MD Designs

this thread was saved thanks to this video.

Wow.
That was some awesome driving skill.

Nicely edited video too.