What Do You Think of This Idea?

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

I've read lots of threads over the years where someone wants to stuff a big V8 into their little car, perhaps a Miata as an example.

Now I have a friend in the foreign car salvage business who recently acquired a nearly new wrecked M car. As you all know, it has a 3 liter straight six rated at 425 HP. It also has a DCT transmission.

Now the tantalizing thought, I'd bet the engine and transmission is almost a drop-in in my 135i M-Sport? The only big problem would be updating or replacing the ECU.

This would be one scary car!

[MightyMouseTech]

Be a hell of a lot easier to mod your current car to 425 hp.

There are many here running more than that.

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

You are forgetting a few things. The M engine is built to put out the 425 HP without any strain on the engine's internals. For example, it has a forged crankshaft while the N55 engine has a cast. There also improvements or updates in other areas such as the oiling and cooling systems along with the DCT designed to handle the extra torque of the M engine.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

You are forgetting a few things. The M engine is built to put out the 425 HP without any strain on the engine's internals. For example, it has a forged crankshaft while the N55 engine has a cast. There also improvements or updates in other areas such as the oiling and cooling systems along with the DCT designed to handle the extra torque of the M engine.

Fill yer boots then, tell us how it works out.

[ShocknAwe]

No one has yet reached the ceiling for strength of internal components on the N54 or N55 engines, and this is with cars north of 600whp. Way over your 425hp figure.

[all4bspinnin]

If you're going to do a swap put the m3 v8 in the car

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by all4bspinnin

If you're going to do a swap put the m3 v8 in the car

It's been done, with great success!

[e92ben]

Do it!!!!! Would be insane! Your gonna hear the v8 fan boys tell you to put an s65 but the amount of power and torque from that s55 is something special. Especially with a few bolt-ons. Your looking at probably 25-30 grand in labor tho lol

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

it has a 3 liter straight six rated at 425 HP. It also has a DCT transmission.

Your car has a 3 liter straight six, too, and with very minimal effort/modifications it can be "rated" at 425hp.

Personally I wouldn't try it, unless you're one of those people who just has money that they can part with to be the first person to do something cool. Either way, good luck, and happy motoring.

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

I wouldn't put the engine in my '13. I'd put it in an old beater. Next, the M3/M4 engine makes more HP than the recent V8, it's lighter, and it wouldn't cost me any more than the V8. It'd be a perfect fit in the engine compartment with plenty of elbow room. Another factor is the six compared to the eight is a less complicated engine in terms of mechanical complexity.

BMW like any other manufacturer designs their engine to reliably make their rated horsepower. And they also have bean counters reviewing manufacturing costs, so the company has a margin of profit. Hence the company doesn't have the goal to make the engine stout enough to produce another 125 HP to satisfy the hop up fraternity.

Whether the engine can reliably sustain that increase in HP is debatable. The guys who modify their engines are always going to claim some phenomenal gains in power, but it isn't know if that is reality or a pipe dream.

One other thing of note is the M235i engine with just an additional bump of 20 HP now sports a forged crankshaft. I suspect this was done to ready the engine's internals for the M2 which will supposedly have 400HP.

Interestingly, the N54 engine had a forged crank, and this was the engine used in the 1M or M1. which had an additional 40 HP.

[miro2296]

DO IT!

[Yeineken]

If you have the money and the connections do it! We know we can get a s65 in the e82 running like it would from the factory. Time to find out if the s55 is the same.

[Esteban]

The sound alone of the high revving naturally aspirated V8 S65 engine would make it my first choice. I can't help it! I can't get that video out of my head! I love the sound of that V8.

[Solo_M_Tech]

What he's overlooking is the electrical incompatibility. The engine and subframe are completely different as is the transmission crossmember and general size.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But for the money it will take to do the S55 swap, you might as well buy a f80.

Also. The N54 and N55 are drastically underrated. The component strength limit had yet to be exceeded on either engine. There are many examples of modded E82's that have 100+ thousand miles and other than wear parts, they are still running. Don't discredit BMW and their quality. It doesn't have to be ///M to have the same quality.

And to his comment about claimed power increases being pipe dreams, many of us have actual dyno proof of power increases and several of us make substantially more power than your S55 wanna be pipe dream swap.

[amsnow440]

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

What he's overlooking is the electrical incompatibility. The engine and subframe are completely different as is the transmission crossmember and general size.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But for the money it will take to do the S55 swap, you might as well buy a f80.

Also. The N54 and N55 are drastically underrated. The component strength limit had yet to be exceeded on either engine. There are many examples of modded E82's that have 100+ thousand miles and other than wear parts, they are still running. Don't discredit BMW and their quality. It doesn't have to be ///M to have the same quality.

And to his comment about claimed power increases being pipe dreams, many of us have actual dyno proof of power increases and several of us make substantially more power than your S55 wanna be pipe dream swap.

+1000.

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

Another factor is the six compared to the eight is a less complicated engine in terms of mechanical complexity.

An air-to-water intercooled twin turbo I6 is substantially more complicated than an N/A V8...

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

Whether the engine can reliably sustain that increase in HP is debatable. The guys who modify their engines are always going to claim some phenomenal gains in power, but it isn't know if that is reality or a pipe dream. .

How many N54/55 engines do you know of that have failed due to excessive internal stresses?

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

BMW like any other manufacturer designs their engine to reliably make their rated horsepower. And they also have bean counters reviewing manufacturing costs, so the company has a margin of profit. Hence the company doesn't have the goal to make the engine stout enough to produce another 125 HP to satisfy the hop up fraternity.

Your source for this conjecture is what?

I would suggest to you that BMW knows exactly what people are going to do with their cars. Their goal is to get as many people to buy their cars as possible, the "hop up fraternity" (whatever the fuck that is) included. They build the ultimate driving machine. Evidence: Do you think the 1 series with a twin turbocharged 3 liter has 6pot brembo calipers so that I can stop appropriately on my commute to the grocery store? How about the oil cooler? How about the BMW PPKs, PEs, PSs: Factory prepped additions to the car that have no bearing on the materials the engine was manufactured with and are designed with the explicit purpose of adding power and performance. - do you think these were created with "bean counting" in mind?

Cease fire with the pretending. You're not going to do the swap either way. Happy motoring.

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

Originally Posted by edisapimp

Your source for this conjecture is what?

I would suggest to you that BMW knows exactly what people are going to do with their cars. Their goal is to get as many people to buy their cars as possible, the "hop up fraternity" (whatever the fuck that is) included. They build the ultimate driving machine. Evidence: Do you think the 1 series with a twin turbocharged 3 liter has 6pot brembo calipers so that I can stop appropriately on my commute to the grocery store? How about the oil cooler? How about the BMW PPKs, PEs, PSs: Factory prepped additions to the car that have no bearing on the materials the engine was manufactured with and are designed with the explicit purpose of adding power and performance. - do you think these were created with "bean counting" in mind?

Cease fire with the pretending. You're not going to do the swap either way. Happy motoring.

Does your post have a point to make or do you just like to ramble on about nothing?

Any company that hopes to survive counts beans including BMW. The company provides brakes commensurate with the cars performance. We wouldn't want you hitting a tree while you are showing off. Also note you are paying a good price for what you get.

The extra 20 HP is an expensive joke which clearly says what the company is most concerned about, making money.

Also in response to a previous post, there isn't anything but anecdotal evidence how well the engine will stand up to increases in HP. Knowing car guys, they'll report their successes but seldom failures like a rod thorough the block. And just how many miles/time will the engine survive with the additional stresses imposed by more HP?

Anyway, it is easy to glibly talk trash without any real knowledge of what you are talking about. You are obviously a master at that.

[MuNkY6913]

out an N54 in it with some upgraded turbos and fueling and enjoy the 600+ hp. don't think I've seen anyone break one at that level. that's my end goal. right now I've been at 405 whp 430 wtq for a year and a half. with spec stage 2+ clutch I haven't broke anything. and I launch hard often with 2 step and push it regularly with no lift shift to the limit. I dynoed before modding and on the same dyno 2 years later I went from 280whp to 405whp. so I actually have proof of where I'm at. probably be cheaper to do that than have to change everything for a newer M engine.

[amsnow440]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

Does your post have a point to make or do you just like to ramble on about nothing?

Any company that hopes to survive counts beans including BMW. The company provides brakes commensurate with the cars performance. We wouldn't want you hitting a tree while you are showing off. Also note you are paying a good price for what you get.

The extra 20 HP is an expensive joke which clearly says what the company is most concerned about, making money.

Also in response to a previous post, there isn't anything but anecdotal evidence how well the engine will stand up to increases in HP. Knowing car guys, they'll report their successes but seldom failures like a rod thorough the block. And just how many miles/time will the engine survive with the additional stresses imposed by more HP?

Anyway, it is easy to glibly talk trash without any real knowledge of what you are talking about. You are obviously a master at that.

The evidence in not anecdotal. There is, in fact, quite a large sample of engines that have been dyno'd at approximately 150% of the manufacturer's power specification (and trust me, there are people making SIGNIFICANTLY more power than this) that are running splendidly. There are also MANY cases of these engines surviving 50k+ miles at 400hp+ power levels. That's not "anecdotal" evidence, that's empirical data (I'm not going to sit here and list all my sources, there is plenty of info on this topic). I'm willing to give my fellow "car guys" (the negative connotation was noted, btw ) like MuNkY's post above, the benefit of the doubt and interpret this data as valid.

I can tell you obviously haven't you visited many car forums of performance cars. This is evident by your statement "they'll report their successes but seldom failures like a rod thorough the block" when this couldn't be further from the truth. This is not gambling where you only hear about successes, and rarely failures. This is where car guys come to discuss their prized possessions AND bitch and moan when things inevitably go wrong.

Don't you think that 8 years later we'd be hearing about SOME tuned N54s putting rods through the block at 400whp? It's not like they just came out with the engine last year and Terry released the JB4 yesterday. Go on the Evolutionm or NASIOC forums and see how many "I blew my engine" threads there are. And while you're there, why don't you ask the Evo community how badly they would like to have a forged crankshaft and a sleeved block from the factory? That doesn't sound like something bean counters would do to me, that sounds like over-engineering.

[edisapimp]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

Does your post have a point to make or do you just like to ramble on about nothing?

Any company that hopes to survive counts beans including BMW. The company provides brakes commensurate with the cars performance. We wouldn't want you hitting a tree while you are showing off. Also note you are paying a good price for what you get.

The extra 20 HP is an expensive joke which clearly says what the company is most concerned about, making money.

Also in response to a previous post, there isn't anything but anecdotal evidence how well the engine will stand up to increases in HP. Knowing car guys, they'll report their successes but seldom failures like a rod thorough the block. And just how many miles/time will the engine survive with the additional stresses imposed by more HP?

Anyway, it is easy to glibly talk trash without any real knowledge of what you are talking about. You are obviously a master at that.

Dude, you just owned me.

I can't even hang with you when it comes to debating, so I'm not going to try.

#carguy

[Solo_M_Tech]

One guy has no clue what he's talking about (rooty) vs a forum full of people with first hand experience. How does he think this will turn out?

Again the idea of swapping a S55 into a 1er is a massive undertaking that will require a lot of re-engineering and money, both of which are pointless when the N54 is more than capable.

Take your stupid idea and go pound sand.

[Hellkite]

fortune favor the brave. Do it forget the nay sayers.
What you need to remember the s55 is based of the n54/55. So it will be close on fitting in. Swap the sub frames. You may need to make a sub frame hybird. I'm sure you will need a custom drive shaft.
I know people that put a s65 in a e30 m3. If that can be done this can be done.
Then as for the electronics swap the whole thing over the get someone that codes bmws to code it. It will be a lot of work and at times you my ask yourself why but in the end it will be worth it.