At the limit

[Robert]

Can someone help me characterize the cars behavior at the limit. I am use to driving fwd cars which tend to oversteer at the limit and has plenty of tire squeal at the limit. The other day I was pushing the 1 but not nearly as hard as I thought. Coming out of decreasing radius turn I must have gotten on the gas too early. Without tire squeal the rearend stepped out and traction kicked in. I let off the gas, counter steered and brought the car under control. Thank to traction the situation could have been more dramatic. Do you guys hear the tire squeal before the limit is reached?

[M J M]

Hi Robert,

The answer is not really. I just had the 1 out for the first time in several weeks (its winter up here in Canada!). I noticed that the car was getting lose without squealing the tires. I was out again tonight and it did it again the roads are dry but slightly greasy from the temp. I have noticed this in the summer as well. I find you lose adhesion prior to squealing most of the time.

PS I am glad you kept you traction control on or you might have had a more interesting event. I really love the TC on this car, very smooth and not a total killjoy, just keeps it under control. My 05 G35 had the worst TC and Stability control ever... very low tolerance for tomfoolery and very very abrupt!

Driving the car for the first time in basically a month was great almost like driving it for the very first time. I love this car!!!!

[Robert]

Traction control will stay on on public roads at all time. There was no way I would have the reflex of the machine. Planning to enroll myself in a bmwcca driver ed soon.

[former]

I assume the OP meant FWD cars that understeer at the limit... :smile:

Generally speaking, I've not known tires to necessarily squeal before breaking away. If you are used to FWD cars, then you know that when you overwhelm a car with both steering and power then they can get a little noisy and then result in the push. RWD on the other hand separates those tasks nicely. But, the car doesn't always talk to you very well before letting go.

I haven't pushed my 1 hard enough yet to find that point, but intend to as soon as we're reunited. However, my current car is RWD and once you start moving things back and forth, well, thank all that is holy for the computer! I only have all-seaons on my current car, a mistake I will not make again, but I doubt summer tires would make much difference. When the rear gets overwhelmed, it is going to break loose.

Just try to break, turn and accelerate in completely separate actions and you'll reduce the potential for the drama of the bad kind.

[xantdieselx]

Our cars come equipped with summer only tires. If you read the tire manual, summer tires are recc for temps above 45 degrees F. When these tires are cold or used in colder weather they will yield unpredictable results.

[former]

Originally Posted by xantdieselx

Our cars come equipped with summer only tires. If you read the tire manual, summer tires are recc for temps above 45 degrees F. When these tires are cold or used in colder weather they will yield unpredictable results.

Agreed in spades, but the OP is in Irvine, CA and Orange County doesn't regularly see sub-45 degree temps, so I didn't consider that. For lower temp areas, summer tires might as well be rocks for all the traction they give you! :wink:

[mtla4]

Honestly stock the car is limited with its soft suspension and crappy tires. With a tune it doesnt get better as the tires break loose easily. However its easily manageable and I drive with driving aids OFF all the time. I feel safer that way(thats just me). When a car skids you never control it with braking its always by keeping the throttle at the same level or by giving it more until it gains traction......thats why I dont believe in driving aids that cut the power. People living in northern regions where it snows could tell you from experience. Im sure Ill get flamed by people saying that nannies are safer but I personally dont believe in nannies. I cringe when I see people inquiring about JB3,downpipes and power upgrades while they cant control the car without nannies. First mod should be acquiring or perfecting skills. I can add that controling a RWD is the easiest thing to do. With a FWD well if you passed the limit theres nothing you can do. While with AWD or RWD you can control the car either by steering or throttle control.

Robert dont take it personal I'm not attacking you by any means. You're doing the right thing with asking us advice and investing in a driving course. I'm not saying by any means that I'm a pro but tracking cars and bikes I can speak from experience.

[Robert]

If you have some spare time, do you mind to explain how maintaining same throttle level will lead to faster recovery than letting off throttle. The assumption is car is already out of control therefore none of the wheels have traction. My guess is not to upset the balance by abrupt readjustments , (ie braking) but if the car is out of control and the throttle is maintained at the level that broke traction then, how does it lead to faster recovery. Thanks in advance.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by robert

If you have some spare time, do you mind to explain how maintaining same throttle level will lead to faster recovery than letting off throttle. The assumption is car is already out of control therefore none of the wheels have traction. My guess is not to upset the balance by abrupt readjustments , (ie braking) but if the car is out of control and the throttle is maintained at the level that broke traction then, how does it lead to faster recovery. Thanks in advance.

It is, as you guessed, about weight transfer. When the rear end breaks traction and steps out under corning if the throttle is closed the weight is transferred more to the front making the rear relatively lighter. Making the rear lighter in those conditions could result in snap oversteer and a spin. Keeping in the throttle and counter steering into the drift keeps weight bias on the rear allowing the rear tires to hook up sooner.

Be sure to learn this technique in a safe environment like an autocross.

[bman6074]

The tires will squeal. Mine did when I took it auto-x and I was pushing pretty hard.
Here is a video of my runs and you can hear the squealing.
Just skip to the second run at 1:30. My first run was slow to get a feel for the course.
Auto-x runs

[zbladejr]

One way to start getting acquainted with power slides and loosing the rear a bit is by hitting the DCT button once. This allows the car to step out a bit more making for some additional fun - but the nannie will step in eventually.

I agree with the rest of the posters, there is seldom any noise from the rear tires as they break loose. Exception is full throttle take-off, then it does tend to squeal a bit in first, then second and if dry and tires heated it should not spin [much] going into third. Then, it's you and Johny law.

I don't like the rft's and did not realize the 45 degree thing. Truly a good learning as today had it out with my son and it's 36 out. I was not going to get winter tires (have a spare car, though a bit of a junker), but now I think it's a must.

Have fun with her and make sure you're in open territory - my favorite is wide curving on-ramps - easy to go slow and play with the power to get the feeling of on-throttle and counter steer.

[135i_]

As already stated you need accelerate out of a slide. Your assumption was correct.

If you've got understeer, as you're accustomed to with FWD, to correct you take your foot off the throttle at steer the direction you want to go (away from the understeer). This is because the front tires have lost traction. The opposite is true for oversteer.

When accelerating, the weight shifts towards the rear. You need to open the throttle and steer into the slide.

This is why you don't want to "lift" (let off the throttle) while in the middle of a corner. When you lift, the weight shifts off the back tires, they lose traction and you find your ass end sliding.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by 135i_

As already stated you need accelerate out of a slide. Your assumption was correct.

If you've got understeer, as you're accustomed to with FWD, to correct you take your foot off the throttle at steer the direction you want to go (away from the understeer). This is because the front tires have lost traction. The opposite is true for oversteer.

When accelerating, the weight shifts towards the rear. You need to open the throttle and steer into the slide.

This is why you don't want to "lift" (let off the throttle) while in the middle of a corner. When you lift, the weight shifts off the back tires, they lose traction and you find your ass end sliding.

but if the rear has already broken loose, why would lifting do anything at all to change balance? If the rears are just spinning, there's no traction to begin with. A slight lift reduces the amount of power going to the wheels, which is probably why the rear broke loose in the first place...too much gas while going around a corner. You can obviously lose the rear by lifting mid-corner as well, and the solution is to add power.

In other words, whatever you did to cause the rear to break loose, do the opposite to correct.

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering how you guys got to your opinions.

[gyrfalcon]

In my Auto X experience I've found the car typically understeers quite a bit unless you are on the throttle hard with the steering cranked. I've also found that the increasing miles on the stock tires are making it easier and easier to get the rear end to slide out.

[moff]

The oversteer advice is good, but not for the road.

I can see it now... 135i driver gets a bit of oversteer, nails throttle, back end comes round and whale tail begins, over correcting the steering, before skidding off the road.

Don't be a hero, on the road if you start to oversteer and it's at speed, nail the brakes hard and turn gently into the skid. Let the DSC/DTC sort you out - it will individually brakes the relevant wheel(s) and help you out of the sh1t. Your more likely to walk away too.

[Robert]

You guys are awesome and patient to help me understand driving a RWD car. A big THANKS. I am going to buy some cones tomorrow to toss on local streets and tell Johnny Law it's an autox. That on ramp is especially tricky because not only it's decreasing radius but it is also embanked wrong. Instead of the lowest point at the inner apex, the apex is the highest point of the turn.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by moff

The oversteer advice is good, but not for the road.

I can see it now... 135i driver gets a bit of oversteer, nails throttle, back end comes round and whale tail begins, over correcting the steering, before skidding off the road.

Don't be a hero, on the road if you start to oversteer and it's at speed, nail the brakes hard and turn gently into the skid. Let the DSC/DTC sort you out - it will individually brakes the relevant wheel(s) and help you out of the sh1t. Your more likely to walk away too.

With DSC/DTC on I don't think the engine will put more power to the wheels once the car detects lost of traction, even if you command it to.

[135i_]

Originally Posted by amurph182

but if the rear has already broken loose, why would lifting do anything at all to change balance? If the rears are just spinning, there's no traction to begin with. A slight lift reduces the amount of power going to the wheels, which is probably why the rear broke loose in the first place...too much gas while going around a corner. You can obviously lose the rear by lifting mid-corner as well, and the solution is to add power.

In other words, whatever you did to cause the rear to break loose, do the opposite to correct.

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering how you guys got to your opinions.

If you're already in a slightly oversteering condition, lifting the throttle is going to cause a sudden shift in weight to the front wheels. This causes your rears to break free and induce a spin. The way to correct this is slight throttle input and steering into the slide.

If you're experiencing power-over steer, where too much throttle was the problem to begin with and you're already in a spin, the best thing to do is ease off the throttle while counter steering.

I think we're saying the same thing and maybe your post wasn't to me. The answer to your original question is that your engine is still transferring power and moving. The engine literally shifts back and forth when you get on and off the throttle. Obviously the effect of this is minimal.

Road or track, the way to recover from oversteer is the same. That being said, on the road you shouldn't ever be in that situation to being with but that's not always within your control.