250whp N/A possible?

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I personally think flinchy is great. I don't agree with him on this but I do like the guy and his project.

hey, at least you're unique there all the Australian guys are nothing but hate across the board!*shrug*

i highly suggest you run through the physics though, it'll help you understand so much more about your own car, even with the S65, and you'll likely actually agree with me too haha. (maybe not, but it's still worth going through)

[ilikebmxbikes]

I agree with the general concept but do not believe a 700hp n54 1 series, no matter the throttle curve, is going to be an ideal track car. It would be fun but it will not be quicker than a 450hp one.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I agree with the general concept but do not believe a 700hp n54 1 series, no matter the throttle curve, is going to be an ideal track car. It would be fun but it will not be quicker than a 450hp one.

can you break down your reasoning though?

the factory turbos make for a TERRIBLE track setup, because there's no top end.. add to that the aggressive boost giving traction issues. Pure daily driver spec lol. The S65/M3 makes for a better track car because you can gear it out better with a high end power band. At least in a straight line (and on MANY tracks) the N54 is faster/quicker with a longer final drive. 2.56 in simulations/calculations (even with absurdly quick shift times or a 6AT) gives much faster acceleration than 3.08, as well as putting less torque to the ground making it easier to control... with a higher power banded single, not only would it be faster final drive:final drive, it would be able to be fit with shorter final drives and only be *as bad* to control around a corner at worst.

the worst part about 1 series track car imo, is the wheelbase, it just loves to rotate too much as soon as it gets out of shape. anything that helps with traction should do nothing but help with speeds.

straight line times are a much simpler story more power higher up can only help.. the only N54 in the 10's so far is a stripped out single as far as i know, still.... and... i'm pretty sure you've already said your thoughts from a roll-on.. the highest power N54's decimate litre bikes on a rollon already haha.

what about 600whp ST N54 > 450whp ST N54? even less torque then, higher end power band etc. etc (everything else i've already said still applies).. if you can agree the 600whp lower torque setup is better, i can't see the logic in saying a 700whp one is worse.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by flinchy

can you break down your reasoning though?

the worst part about 1 series track car imo/afaik, is the wheelbase, it just loves to rotate too much as soon as it gets out of shape. anything that helps with traction should do nothing but help with speeds.

straight line times are a much simpler story more power higher up can only help.. the only N54 in the 10's so far is a stripped out single as far as i know, still.

Plainly put the chassis will not put down 700hp. You could baby a 700hp car like it's a 450ish hp car but on a road track your not going to unleash that car.

Heat soak is another issue. Tuned FBO n54's with upgraded intercoolers and supercharged s65's have cooling issues on the track. A 700hp n54 wouldn't have equal or likely worse cooling issues. Many guys are removing their superchargers off of their m3's getting better times.

It would be more useful as an airstrip or drift car in my book.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Plainly put the chassis will not put down 700hp. You could baby a 700hp car like it's a 450ish hp car but on a road track your not going to unleash that car. It would be more useful as an airstrip or drift car in my book.

but why are you still talking about power, when it's torque you should be talking (torquing? no?) about? -_-

power doesn't matter, torque matters.. when you're talking 700hp from a single, it's as much torque as a ~500hp stock twin... and given still using 3.08 rear end, it's no more torque to the ground either. torque twists a chassis/puts strain on bushings/mounts, not power.. torque breaks traction, not power.

if you want to stick to 450hp stock twin for the debate, then talk about a ~650hp single. the 650hp single only needs the same peak torque.

if it's still not clicking.. imagine your S65 (or an imaginary theoretical S65 in some other E82 hah), putting on a blower. high boost, E85, whatever it needs, and getting it 700whp at like 9000rpm. right gearing, beautifully smooth torque+power curve, only like 410 ft-lb of torque lol

the chassis can handle that perfectly fine.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by flinchy

uhhh wtf are you disagreeing with? that's EXACTLY what i'm saying ffs.

you know, where to get 500hp, it's making that at maybe 5000rpm, which means, it's making 525ft-lb~... which is 700whp at 7000rpm if that's from a single.

I was trying to be a little more apples to apples. Let's pretend the 700 hp car was peaking at 5000 rpm just like your mythical 500 hp at 5000 rpm.

700 hp, 735 lb/ft at 5000 rpm > 500 hp, 525 lb/ft at 5000 rpm.

How about we really drive your point home? Let's assume the 700 hp motor peaks at 15,000 rpm and the 500 hp motor peaks at 3000 rpm.

With 700 hp at 15,000 rpm that bad boy would only be pushing 245 lb/ft while the 500 hp "stock framed" car at 3000 rpm is self destructing with 875 lb/ft.

There, your point's proven. That 700 hp car is a pussy cat compared to the stocker.

[Obioban]

Flinchy, since you mention the strength of the m3 axels as an upgrade path: food for thought, I've snapped two m3 axels, NA, with all of the non existant torque that implies.

Not sure you really fully comprehend how hard on cars tracking is. I've never seen a stock output n54 upgrade to the point where it doesn't have cooling issues, much less one with more than doubled output.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by flinchy

but why are you still talking about power, when it's torque you should be talking (torquing? no?) about? -_-

power doesn't matter, torque matters.. when you're talking 700hp from a single, it's as much torque as a ~500hp stock twin... and given still using 3.08 rear end, it's no more torque to the ground either. torque twists a chassis/puts strain on bushings/mounts, not power.. torque breaks traction, not power.

if you want to stick to 450hp stock twin for the debate, then talk about a ~650hp single. the 650hp single only needs the same peak torque.

if it's still not clicking.. imagine your S65 (or an imaginary theoretical S65 in some other E82 hah), putting on a blower. high boost, E85, whatever it needs, and getting it 700whp at like 9000rpm. right gearing, beautifully smooth torque+power curve, only like 410 ft-lb of torque lol

the chassis can handle that perfectly fine.

When I say the chassis wont handle it, I am not talking about parts breaking but about the car using the power in a practical situation while driving on a track. I do not believe a 700hp 135i would be any better on the track in the real world than a lesser tuned counterpart.

[631twentyeighteye]

This argument is really still happening? i literally couldn't care less about a 700hp tuned n54. I mean not like this isn't the n52 section or anything.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

This argument is really still happening? i literally couldn't care less about a 700hp tuned n54. I mean not like this isn't the n52 section or anything.

+1 and I am not even an N52 owner!

[kobeballer96]

lmao basically

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Suprgnat

I was trying to be a little more apples to apples. Let's pretend the 700 hp car was peaking at 5000 rpm just like your mythical 500 hp at 5000 rpm.

700 hp, 735 lb/ft at 5000 rpm > 500 hp, 525 lb/ft at 5000 rpm.

yes, at those numbers, and the 700hp 5000rpm one SUCKS so much more. things break, traction is nonexistant..

the 500hp at 5000rpm isn't even 'mythical' though haha.. it's exactly what the stock frame N54's produce - hell, the record stands at 558whp

wait..

I can't link the dyno as it's on the other forum but...

"6th run: 558WHP / 619WTQ - Same map as 5th run, just full cool down, and 5th gear pull"

by Vargas... that 619 ft-lb of torque? ~4300rpm. not even 5000. 4300.

It's making over 550-ft-lb at 5000rpm where peak power is approximately at.

I'm not even making up the stock turbo numbers, i'm talking 100% real world done by tons of people.

Originally Posted by Suprgnat

How about we really drive your point home? Let's assume the 700 hp motor peaks at 15,000 rpm and the 500 hp motor peaks at 3000 rpm.

ok

Originally Posted by Suprgnat

With 700 hp at 15,000 rpm that bad boy would only be pushing 245 lb/ft while the 500 hp "stock framed" car at 3000 rpm is self destructing with 875 lb/ft.

yup... taking the forces of the motor itself having the RPM's disintegrate everything, the higher torque motor is putting more force from the flywheel-back, more force through the transmission, the driveshaft, the diff.

Originally Posted by Suprgnat

There, your point's proven. That 700 hp car is a pussy cat compared to the stocker.

well yeah, for the most part ignoring a couple of things haha

i mean... ignoring the fact the ultra high RPM motor will self destruct by itself in the real world lol, it's gentler on every other part of the car, torque to the wheels is much better controlled via gearing.. either way, it's significantly faster.

You can put on much shorter gearing, still have similar or less torque to the ground, accelerate faster, higher top speed, the lot.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Flinchy, since you mention the strength of the m3 axels as an upgrade path: food for thought, I've snapped two m3 axels, NA, with all of the non existant torque that implies.

Not sure you really fully comprehend how hard on cars tracking is. I've never seen a stock output n54 upgrade to the point where it doesn't have cooling issues, much less one with more than doubled output.

S65 M3 axles? or on your E46?

different parts.

I'm not aware of an S65 axle that's snapped from anything other than masses of wheel hop, and a honda could snap that axle with wheel hop.

and how haven't you seen an N54 with fixed cooling? you know there's countless oil cooler upgrades right? I haven't seen a thread about an upgraded oil cooler where cooling is still an issue lol.

not one of the cars making 6xx or 7xxhp on a single has cooling as any kind of real issue after upgrading the oil cooler, if you'd care to have a read about them lol

ED: remembering.. the stock twins add loads of heat through the turbos themselves being inefficient and that sort of thing.. the 700hp single isn't putting out as much heat as the 700hp theoretical stock twin would be.

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

When I say the chassis wont handle it, I am not talking about parts breaking but about the car using the power in a practical situation while driving on a track. I do not believe a 700hp 135i would be any better on the track in the real world than a lesser tuned counterpart.

Yes, but it's TORQUE the chassis doesn't handle, not power

you keep missing the fact people have made 650 ft-lb on stock twins, and mid to high 5xx isn't abnormal... yes, on cars that have been at the track.

a 700hp, because we live in a world with various phsyical laws, single turbo N54, MUST be easier to drive than a high power (ie high torque) stock frame turbo N54.

if you can't agree with that, start comparing a 450hp stock twin N54 to a 600-650hp single turbo N54.

wait, no, compare a 550 ft-lb stock twin N54, to a 500 ft-lb single turbo N54, and WORK OUT how much power each option will be producing, which means you have to think about the physics for once.

why do you keep repeating the same point, with no reasoning of any sort other than 'BECAUSE I THINK SO' that isn't even correct man? It's just strange.

why are you still not thinking through the real world physics of it?

you're trolling, right?

when heaps of N54's and 1ers start making 700hp and PROVING that it's easier, are you still going to be going with this same argument, because none of you are in the real world?

ED: because lots of people in this thread don't understand the actual relation between torque and horsepower.. I know i'm probably wasting my time, but i'm betting at least one person might listen.

when you're talking about the final drive.. 3.08, 3.46, 2.56... it multiplies TORQUE not power. It doesn't give a shit how much power the car is producing, because that's a totally separate relationship.

if you're in 1:1 transmission gear, a 500 ft-lb car at 3.08 is putting 1540 ft-lb to the ground

now bringing it back to the N54, that's 1540ft-lb at say 4000rpm... making say 450whp peak at 5000~ after dropping to 472 ft-lb (because torque drop)

if we're talking single turbo, lets say 450 ft-lb, LESS torque and just say it's full boost by 5000rpm too, holding torque perfectly to 7000rpm... that's 1386 ft-lb to the ground -LESS TORQUE- and 599hp (lets say 600hp lol)

out of those two cars... which one is harder to drive? which one has less traction? which one is faster? which one is more reliable? which one is easier to drive?

***SPOILERS**
the 500ft-lb 450whp one

the 500ft-lb 450whp one

the 450 ft-lb 600whp one

the 450ft-lb 600whp one

the 450ft-lb 600whp one.

and a final bit of fact that won't matter to half the people reading this... peak instantaneous engine acceleration happens at peak TORQUE. it has nothing to do with peak power.

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

This argument is really still happening? i literally couldn't care less about a 700hp tuned n54. I mean not like this isn't the n52 section or anything.

yeah.. i agree, it's a bit strange

fact is, i don't know if anyone disagreeing with me should risk trying to increase the power on their cars... it's just silly, having enough knowledge to make things faster but have no idea how it works.

especially if (not entirely related to this thread) anyone here is thinking of putting the blower on. i mean.. it's making more torque AND power.. everyone else here in this thread agrees that more power and less torque is harder to control... so more power and more torque must cause car to literally disintegrate, right?

people need to not reply to this before FULLY UNDERSTANDING how this all works in the real world, how when taking in real world physics as a consideration, higher power DOESN'T mean worse, for our car.. with a single turbo. Yeah, the old adage of 'more power isn't necessarily better' holds true for many cars.. but the stock frames on our cars and how power is delivered just does not hold for the N54... more power on the stock frames however, yes, isn't necessarily better.

[Obioban]

People who chose the n52 want one of two things:
1) a balanced (power/handling/braking) car
2) a reliable car

What you're missing is that these people actively don't want what you're doing to your car (downgrade) because you're ruining both, whether you realize it yet or not.
(More than doubling the power detracts from reliability on EVERY platform, regardless of what you've read on the internet where people feel the need to defend their purchasing decisions)

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Obioban

People who chose the n52 want one of two things:
1) a balanced (power/handling/braking) car
2) a reliable car

What you're missing is that these people actively don't want what you're doing to your car (downgrade) because you're ruining both, whether you realize it yet or not.
(More than doubling the power detracts from reliability on EVERY platform, regardless of what you've read on the internet where people feel the need to defend their purchasing decisions)

yeah you're right there.

there's no sensible argument saying a 700whp single turbo lower torque N54 is less reliable or balanced than the higher torque stock frame N54 is all i'm saying.

Personally i chose the N52 because it was all i could afford at the time haha.

no reason you can't get a high power N54 powered 1er and keep it relatively balanced, it just costs a hell of a lot more in big brakes, expensive suspension etc.

same re: reliability, it just costs more than is.. well, sane hah.

[Wakka]

Originally Posted by flinchy

yeah you're right there.

there's no sensible argument saying a 700whp single turbo lower torque N54 is less reliable or balanced than the higher torque stock frame N54 is all i'm saying.

Personally i chose the N52 because it was all i could afford at the time haha.

no reason you can't get a high power N54 powered 1er and keep it relatively balanced, it just costs a hell of a lot more in big brakes, expensive suspension etc.

same re: reliability, it just costs more than is.. well, sane hah.

Dude no one cares about this on this sub forum. Go to the 135 forum if you want to talk about this garbage. I could afford a 135i and i didnt purchase one. If i wanted some kind of platform where i could do that i sure as hell would not start with a 135i anyway. Probably a GT 500 would be a good place to start for something like that. end of discussion, move on to a different thread to troll.

Can we please get back on topic now?

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Wakka

Dude no one cares about this on this sub forum. Go to the 135 forum if you want to talk about this garbage. I could afford a 135i and i didnt purchase one. If i wanted some kind of platform where i could do that i sure as hell would not start with a 135i anyway. Probably a GT 500 would be a good place to start for something like that. end of discussion, move on to a different thread to troll.

Can we please get back on topic now?

*shrug* to each their own.. why are you on here if you don't want to learn things.. I'm not the one that brought it up, so apparently others DO care.

want to get back on topic:

no

end of thread.

aiming for real >250whp NA is an expensive and stupid prospect, probably moreso than a 700whp N54.

hell, if you would get a GT500 for power, why are you driving a 128i for balance? if you call 135i owners stupid for wanting lots of power, i'll call 128i owners stupid for wanting a balanced car and not owning a toyobaru or miata etc. "end of discussion"

[Taskmaster]

Ok.

[Wakka]

Originally Posted by flinchy

*shrug* to each their own.. why are you on here if you don't want to learn things.. I'm not the one that brought it up, so apparently others DO care.

want to get back on topic:

no

end of thread.

aiming for real >250whp NA is an expensive and stupid prospect, probably moreso than a 700whp N54.

hell, if you would get a GT500 for power, why are you driving a 128i for balance? if you call 135i owners stupid for wanting lots of power, i'll call 128i owners stupid for wanting a balanced car and not owning a toyobaru or miata etc. "end of discussion"

??? Where did i call 135i owners stupid. This is the n52 forum. This conversation regarding the n54 is stupid in this forum. Good talk.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Wakka

??? Where did i call 135i owners stupid. This is the n52 forum. This conversation regarding the n54 is stupid in this forum. Good talk.

it was implied in your last post lol.

If you read the conversation, if evolved past purely N54 related a couple pages ago, it's about how drivability is effected by various setups, it pertains to supercharging the N52 as well. It's important for anyone modifying their car for more power, to understand how it works.

The actual topic of this thread was covered by page 2 at latest, continuing and evolving a conversation isn't a bad thing, it's quite good normally.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by flinchy

it was implied in your last post lol.

If you read the conversation, if evolved past purely N54 related a couple pages ago, it's about how drivability is effected by various setups, it pertains to supercharging the N52 as well. It's important for anyone modifying their car for more power, to understand how it works.

The actual topic of this thread was covered by page 2 at latest, continuing and evolving a conversation isn't a bad thing, it's quite good normally.

Lets make this very clear:

NO ONE HERE CARES.

[Taskmaster]

So...about N/A power.

[MarkkyyMan]

We need cams!!