Our 1M worth more than $10,000 over MSRP!?

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

the 1M is not comparable to any STI no matter what....there is no STI that sells for *over* MSRP 3 or 4 years after being on sale....period.

1M does trade for over MSRP... for now. I think prices will moderate in coming months when the M2 is introduced ... then maybe start climbing as the comparison tests and nostalgia set in.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Initial depreciation may be higher - particular when crossing generational thresholds (i.e. 135i -> M235i), but I'll eat my hat if a 2015 STI and 2015 M235i (all else equal) ever invert in the used market. As Subaru continues to grow and saturate the market, I suspect their depreciation curves to resemble those of larger manufacturers.

STI steering is OK. It may be hydraulic, but with the front wheels also responsible for putting power down, there's a lack of communication vs. RWD.

Again, it's a fine car. Lots of great tech (mostly vectoring via the Torsen diffs) and pedigree...but if I wanted a small AWD four cylinder sedan for 40k+ it'd be an S3.

have you driven the current/last Evo? It's steering is FANTASTIC.....i've always actually preferred the Evo to the STI......if i wanted an AWD 4 banger sedan, it would most certainly be the Evo.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Initial depreciation may be higher - particular when crossing generational thresholds (i.e. 135i -> M235i), but I'll eat my hat if a 2015 STI and 2015 M235i (all else equal) ever invert in the used market. As Subaru continues to grow and saturate the market, I suspect their depreciation curves to resemble those of larger manufacturers.

STI steering is OK. It may be hydraulic, but with the front wheels also responsible for putting power down, there's a lack of communication vs. RWD.

Again, it's a fine car. Lots of great tech (mostly vectoring via the Torsen diffs) and pedigree...but if I wanted a small AWD four cylinder sedan for 40k+ it'd be an S3.

Hope you don't have to eat your hat

I don't see the 235i as ever being considered collectible, with its electric steering and everything else. It is probably not even a logical purchase with a manual transmission given the other components that are there, you might as well just go for fast power, and everyone knows that modern automatic transmissions are more efficient and faster than humans when it comes to shifting . . . just AT isn't connected to the driver very much and isn't as much fun to drive. But then why not just get either an American muscle car or some other luxury car, what is so special about sticking with a BMW just for the sake of the roundel on the front and back? There are so many fast and powerful luxury cars out there if all one wants is power and speed and comfort. Of course, that is not what BMW made their name with (in the past).

The STi is a driver's car in the same way that older BMWs (not just M models, even garden variety 3 and 5-series) used to be. The STi is not elegant, but it is very much connected to the driver. So, as these sorts of cars disappear, it will continue to be valued, albeit by an ever diminishing group of old codgers who remember what driving used to be like :-)

When the "my car is better than your car" type threads get posted on various forums (I'm not counting this thread as being in that group) my response is always the same; we are damn lucky that there are ANY drivers cars left today, and in a few more years there probably won't be any at all. So celebrate your A3, your 1M, your 135is, your Golf R, your EVO, whatever; I wish there were more of these cars out there and I fear there won't be any left in another few years, unfortunately. Time to start up a collection :-)

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by champignon

Hope you don't have to eat your hat

I don't see the 235i as ever being considered collectible, with its electric steering and everything else. It is probably not even a logical purchase with a manual transmission given the other components that are there, you might as well just go for fast power, and everyone knows that modern automatic transmissions are more efficient and faster than humans when it comes to shifting . . . just AT isn't connected to the driver very much and isn't as much fun to drive. But then why not just get either an American muscle car or some other luxury car, what is so special about sticking with a BMW just for the sake of the roundel on the front and back? There are so many fast and powerful luxury cars out there if all one wants is power and speed and comfort. Of course, that is not what BMW made their name with (in the past).

The STi is a driver's car in the same way that older BMWs (not just M models, even garden variety 3 and 5-series) used to be. The STi is not elegant, but it is very much connected to the driver. So, as these sorts of cars disappear, it will continue to be valued, albeit by an ever diminishing group of old codgers who remember what driving used to be like :-)

When the "my car is better than your car" type threads get posted on various forums (I'm not counting this thread as being in that group) my response is always the same; we are damn lucky that there are ANY drivers cars left today, and in a few more years there probably won't be any at all. So
celebrate your A3, your 1M, your 135is, your Golf R, your EVO, whatever; I wish there were more of these cars out there and I fear there won't be any left in another few years, unfortunately. Time to start up a collection :-)

My point re: resale isn't about the 1M, per se, but rather, that the STi (S3, M235i, M2 et al) will never be collectable. There are too many of them and too many better options for well-healed nostalgic drivers (if 'feel' is your criteria...Ariel, Lotus, etc.). Depreciated prices for used STIs and M235i will be decided by the then current JB4 crowd.

The 1M's value has a lot to do with scarcity and sentiment (and a deep brand fan base).

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

have you driven the current/last Evo? It's steering is FANTASTIC.....i've always actually preferred the Evo to the STI......if i wanted an AWD 4 banger sedan, it would most certainly be the Evo.

That's the thing- I have no interest in an AWD sedan. They're fine cars (and in the case of the Evo, boosted to within an inch of their lives) that offer a great performance at a lower price point.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by cSurf

That's the thing- I have no interest in an AWD sedan. They're fine cars (and in the case of the Evo, boosted to within an inch of their lives) that offer a great performance at a lower price point.

i hear ya....but seeing as you own an X3 for example......you can get a good MIDDLE ground between an SUV and a sports coupe by getting something like an Evo. It's more than enough car for most people...

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

i hear ya....but seeing as you own an X3 for example......you can get a good MIDDLE ground between an SUV and a sports coupe by getting something like an Evo. It's more than enough car for most people...

I have a golden retriever that would disagree.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

i hear ya....but seeing as you own an X3 for example......you can get a good MIDDLE ground between an SUV and a sports coupe by getting something like an Evo. It's more than enough car for most people...

My ideal stable is: X3 (great road trip/family hauler), 1M (I'm just smitten) and a Cayman S (to mod and track).

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by cSurf

My ideal stable is: X3 (great road trip/family hauler), 1M (I'm just smitten) and a Cayman S (to mod and track).

hmm....

mine is:

daily driver: 1M
winter car: 1M
baby hauler and family cruiser: 1M
weekend car: 1M

lol

[champignon]

Originally Posted by cSurf

I have a golden retriever that would disagree.

All time best car for a moderate or smaller sized dog is a Z3/Z3M Coupe.

They have their own private little space to curl up in, but it remains confining (as they like), they can sit up and watch the scenery, or roll into a ball. Perfect, and easy in easy out.

[GimmeanM]

Originally Posted by champignon

Well I hope so! The average BMW depreciates faster than just about any other car out there . . . . .

I believe there is some overlap in the potential buyer pool for a Subaru WRX-STi and for a 1M/M2, given that the STi is a much less refined automobile. Still, the STi depreciates very little when compared to just about any modern BMW. One "side-effect" of that is that a very high proportion of BMWs are leased as opposed to purchased, because the leases offered are attractive when one considers the depreciation one would suffer otherwise. The opposite is true of the STi, where finding an advantageous lease is very difficult, and it pays to buy the car and resell it later as opposed to leasing.

Just to back up a second...There are two factors that determine the monthly payment on a lease; first is the residual and second is the money factor. Whether you purchase or lease you are still going to pay for the depreciation of any car. The reason why old-school financial advisers would advise against leasing calling it a waste of money is because leasing primarily allows you to have a more expensive car for the same monthly payment. 45% of $70K over 3 years versus 100% of $70K over 5 years. So, leasing a 7er for 36 months with a ~55% residual is about $900 a month whereas purchasing the same car on a 5 year loan is ~$1500 per month. The caveat is that most people use this to buy a more expensive car than they should.

Leasing or purchasing doesn't matter. Each serve a purpose to the right buyer. What is important to consider is the depreciation/residual of a particular vehicle with all other things being equal.

As far as an STi not depreciating as fast as a modern BMW (notwithstanding the 1M)...it's a race to zero, and all vehicles are headed there. The more expensive ones have catching up to do!

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by champignon

All time best car for a moderate or smaller sized dog is a Z3/Z3M Coupe.

They have their own private little space to curl up in, but it remains confining (as they like), they can sit up and watch the scenery, or roll into a ball. Perfect, and easy in easy out.

Attachment 1244625

Stunning...but even on a good set of snows, I'd rather be in my X3 in these conditions (this is my X3, with its winter wheel/tire combo)...

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by GimmeanM3

Just to back up a second...There are two factors that determine the monthly payment on a lease; first is the residual and second is the money factor. Whether you purchase or lease you are still going to pay for the depreciation of any car. The reason why old-school financial advisers would advise against leasing calling it a waste of money is because leasing primarily allows you to have a more expensive car for the same monthly payment. 45% of $70K over 3 years versus 100% of $70K over 5 years. So, leasing a 7er for 36 months with a ~55% residual is about $900 a month whereas purchasing the same car on a 5 year loan is ~$1500 per month. The caveat is that most people use this to buy a more expensive car than they should.

Leasing or purchasing doesn't matter. Each serve a purpose to the right buyer. What is important to consider is the depreciation/residual of a particular vehicle with all other things being equal.

As far as an STi not depreciating as fast as a modern BMW (notwithstanding the 1M)...it's a race to zero, and all vehicles are headed there. The more expensive ones have catching up to do!

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

hmm....

mine is:

daily driver: 1M
winter car: 1M
baby hauler and family cruiser: 1M
weekend car: 1M

lol

Same here except for the baby.

Far too risky.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by vocan

Same here except for the baby.

Far too risky.

risky? the 1M is a very safe car....

[champignon]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Stunning...but even on a good set of snows, I'd rather be in my X3 in these conditions (this is my X3, with its winter wheel/tire combo)...

[IMG]http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...psa45fa1b7.jpg[/IMG]

Z3/M certainly not my type of snow car

[vasmir]

Originally Posted by cSurf

1M does trade for over MSRP... for now. I think prices will moderate in coming months when the M2 is introduced ... then maybe start climbing as the comparison tests and nostalgia set in.

Concur-
Initial drop during the first year or two of M2 sales... Then steady appreciation after enthusiasts realize it's not a 1M replacement.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by vasmir

Concur-
Initial drop during the first year or two of M2 sales... Then steady appreciation after enthusiasts realize it's not a 1M replacement.

I think the proper response to this is, "from your mouth to god's ears"



But, in reality, if we really like/love this car, do we really care? Is anyone here seriously considering selling their 1M, barring some sort of unforeseen situation forcing us to do so? I'm not, although if the value rises to a couple hundred thou, then I'll have to reconsider . . . .

[blinded]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

hmm....

mine is:

daily driver: 1M
winter car: 1M
baby hauler and family cruiser: 1M
weekend car: 1M

lol

Give it some time. I got an e82 because I had a little one on the way. I have no complaints, but the mrs. prefers her SUV on trips so that we don't have to pack light. Strollers dominate our trunks.

[CarJunkie]

I owned a 2005 STi for about 2 years. The car was not very good at being a daily driver. It was a lot of fun to play with, was a BEAST at the track, but it was tedious in daily use.

Clutch pedal was heavy and the gear ratios were very close, which meant rowing through 5 gears with every stoplight. The suspension was stiff and bouncy. The seats were hard. It was not the least bit comfortable on drives longer than 1 hour and my wife absolutely hated riding in it.

Next up was an RX8, short on power, but handled 10x better despite being much more comfortable. My wife and I went on an RX8 club drive with 40 cars through New England and upstate NY, basically 2.5 days of endless driving, no complaints from her!

The 1M is the perfect combination of daily driving convenience, long road trip comfort, and beast mode. I drove by myself to San Francisco (13 hours each way) and could have turned around and done it again when I got home. To my wife (the ultimate comfort test, right?) she occasionally comments about "feeling every bump" which never was an issue in the RX8, but she has never refused to take the 1M even when we have gone someplace several hours away.

[SpencerMH]

Originally Posted by vasmir

Concur-
Initial drop during the first year or two of M2 sales... Then steady appreciation after enthusiasts realize it's not a 1M replacement.

M2 will never be a 1m, might be more refined but the 1m is what it is because they didn't start with a 1 and look at widening its stance in a vacuum- they did it in a weekend and spread the body work over the off the shelf subframe a of a wide body e9x this making it the equivalent of s wide body 1, made further wide. It is an overly wide, square car, some things could benefit from a bit more refinement, some benefit from the parts of a very refined bigger brother coming down unmolested for the lessor needs of a smaller, slightly lighter car. I am curious to see the fun factor of a well sorted m2 vs a well sorted 1m- I doubt a modded m2 would approach the performance of a car like mine(accidentally a very similar car to a dinan s3r) with the n55 as a base motor and the more conventional proportions(I run insane amounts of very sticky tire and the 1m easily produces the power to put it to use).

The only reason I ever think of selling my 1m is its not getting any newer as I pour miles on it, the constant pointless dent repair and concern at what point do I redo bushings or walnut blast the head, but Ill enjoy the day I pull up to a chipped m2 in my wildly better looking 1m and get to his face as his newer, next gen m2 shows its higher market appeal by being a smoother, more thought out and lessor car. Only plus box I see is that the 2 it starts from had some better looking designs than the e82 and it looks to be a longer, lower, more aerodynamic profile to start.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by CarJunkie

I owned a 2005 STi for about 2 years. The car was not very good at being a daily driver. It was a lot of fun to play with, was a BEAST at the track, but it was tedious in daily use.

Clutch pedal was heavy and the gear ratios were very close, which meant rowing through 5 gears with every stoplight. The suspension was stiff and bouncy. The seats were hard. It was not the least bit comfortable on drives longer than 1 hour and my wife absolutely hated riding in it.

Next up was an RX8, short on power, but handled 10x better despite being much more comfortable. My wife and I went on an RX8 club drive with 40 cars through New England and upstate NY, basically 2.5 days of endless driving, no complaints from her!

The 1M is the perfect combination of daily driving convenience, long road trip comfort, and beast mode. I drove by myself to San Francisco (13 hours each way) and could have turned around and done it again when I got home. To my wife (the ultimate comfort test, right?) she occasionally comments about "feeling every bump" which never was an issue in the RX8, but she has never refused to take the 1M even when we have gone someplace several hours away.

The 2015 STi can't be compared to the 2005 STi; the current version is much more "luxurious" and dare I say more comfortable than earlier models. It suffers from being offered only as a 4 door sedan, and is still rather rough and harsh to spend long periods of time in. I don't think they will ever change that part of the package, however, as it is part of the raison-d'etre of the car itself, and I don't think that Subaru could charge enough for a more luxurious version to offset the cost of doing better sound deadening, and adding more refinement.