Who has used a Motive Bleeder on their 135i?

[Ginger_Extract]

Second time using the Motive, still can't get a totally firm pedal. I'm curious if people's experiences are similar to mine. Set the Bleeder at 10psi and when I cracked open the right-rear, nothing really happened...Progressively dialed in more pressure until I was at 18psi, then I was able to get a slow dribble of fluid out of the calipers. Moved to left-rear, and pretty much the same deal. The closer I moved to the Master, the better the flow, but it was never a solid stream of fluid. After about hour and change, I managed to get about 3/4 of a Liter of fluid out, most of which came from the front calipers.

Is this similar to your experiences with the Motive on a 1'er? Other DIY's show a solid flow of brake fluid leaving the caliper, I have not gotten that from ANY of the calipers. Is there something I'm missing here? Afraid to go past 20psi for fear of killing the master cyl...

Thinking that the brake lines could be clogged, or an issue with the calipers? However, this car is 2010 with just over 25k miles, it's not some old beater, how could this be the case? Anecdotes from around the net state that I should remove the bleed valve completely from the caliper to see if I get any flow.

[A_Squared]

I kind of had the same thing happen to me. It actually worked better when I hung or held the catch bottle above the bleed screw rather than let it hang down on the ground. Not sure if this actually makes a difference, but I got a better flow although it was still a little slow. So I ended up going through the sequence twice. I was at about 12 psi also the whole time.

[Pyrat 2]

Not sure what the issue is. I have a motive bleeder and just used on my 1 for the first time a couple months back. It seemed to work fine from what I recall. I do know that you'll need 15 to 20 to get any sort of flow.

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

I used it a few weeks ago. 10-13psi is plenty. Did you have air in the line between the Motive unit and the fluid res? Happened to me because I didn't initially place the rubber washer they provided in the cap at the end of the hose. After that the flow was better (around 75ml/minute). The bleeder screw only needs a 1/3 of a turn to flow.

My concern with the MotivePB is the micro bubbles that seem to appear. I ran out of fluid and will be doing again on the weekend.

Also concerned that this method does't flush the ABS unit and there seems no way other than a dealer-bleed to get the ABS unit to cycle?

I use the Motive "dry", which is, that I fill the reservoir and use the Motive as a pressurizer only.

Concerned that since flow rate is so dismal that nothing is really being accomplished other than wasting my time, and brake fluid. Because the fluid just sort of "dribbles" out of the caliper, it's hard to tell if it's effective.

Pedal is wishy-washy, never as firm as it was when I first bought the car (and then proceeded to promptly boil the fluid at a D.E.).

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

Air in the system. I would think only a wet bleed would really work in replacing the fluid. Dry is risky, as may get air in the MC.

Bleed 400ml rear and 250ml front should do the trick.

Tomato-tomatoe, the net result is the same no matter which method you use the Motive, provided I never let the reservoir run low. Trust me on this, the fluid was dripping out the calipers so slowly, that would be tough to do.

Curious that you say the rears require more bleeding than the fronts. What is your rationale behind this, more brake line to cover? I was able to eek out perhaps .2L from the combined rears, while getting ~.5L from the combined fronts.

[JimD]

The one time I used my son's Motive to bleed the brakes on my 128i I used it the same was as "Ginger Extract", I filled the resovor and used the Motive to pressurize it. I had no issue with flow rate. Fluid moved readily. I suggest the OP recruit a friend to help bleed the old fashioned way. Put the friend in the drivers seat, set up on a wheel to bleed, have them push down, and open the bleed screw. Close it before they raise the brake pedal. Do this a few times. With this pressure, flow will not be an issue (or at least it better not be). I think you have something in the line. Could be air, could be something else. If it was air, I would think the motive would move it. The brake fluid is a light oil so if you get it flowing, I think it will move whatever is obstructing the line. If pumping the brake pedal doesn't do it, I would pull the bleeder valve and replace it.

The disadvantage of putting the brake fluid in the Motive is it gets more chance to absorb moisture. Especially the next time you use it since it is nearly impossible to clean all the old fluid out. The only disadvantage of putting the fluid in the master cylinder (only) is you have to refill for each brake. That's a hassle but I want good fluid in my lines so I do it that way. Only real advantage of dumping fluid in the Motive is the convenience. I choose a quality job over convenience.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

See how quickly it flows in the video though.

I don't think dry is the same as wet with the Motive. Wouldn't fluid pressure would be different to air pressure?

The further away from the MC, the longer the line so the more you have to bleed. I recall reading that the system holds 1 litre, but the ABS unit would hold some of that, so 0.8 litre should be sufficient.

Send Dackelone a PM as he knows

Pressure is pressure - first lesson in hydraulics. Not only that but there is an air spring in the Motive (you pump it up) and there is another air spring in the master cylinder reservoir (because the motive pressurizes the air space that you left in the reservoir when you started). Conclusion: dry = wet.

The volume of fluid in the brake lines themselves is negligible. Also fresh fluid immediately displaces the old fluid in the lines. At the calipers, the fluid has to get changed by progressive dilution. That takes a while.

The first caliper you bleed also has to deal with the progressive dilution of the old fluid remaining in the reservoir when you start. You suck out all you can before starting to reduce the amount of new fluid needed to do this.

The amount of fluid needed is a judgement call, made easier if you alternate coloured fluids.

The pressure bleeder doesn't touch any fluid accumulated in the ABS unit, but that is likely too little to be worried about.

Given that you shouldn't store brake fluid after the container has been opened, 1.0 litre is "sufficient" for a full flush, unless you buy your fluid in 0.8 litre bottles ...

Originally Posted by JimD

The disadvantage of putting the brake fluid in the Motive is it gets more chance to absorb moisture. Especially the next time you use it since it is nearly impossible to clean all the old fluid out. The only disadvantage of putting the fluid in the master cylinder (only) is you have to refill for each brake. That's a hassle but I want good fluid in my lines so I do it that way. Only real advantage of dumping fluid in the Motive is the convenience. I choose a quality job over convenience.

This is nonsense. The point of the Motive is convenience. And if you do run your reservoir dry by mistake, that would be really inconvenient.

Final obvious observation - if you want the fluid to flow faster, pump the brake pedal (slowly, releasing it slowly) with the Motive attached and pressurized. The only place air can theoretically get it is around the threads of the bleeder screws if your drain hose is full of fluid and immersed in fluid in the catch bottle (which is standard practice). In the unlikely event some air does get drawn in on the return pedal stroke, it will be expelled immediately by the pressurized flow from the Motive, even if that flow is slow.

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

Final obvious observation - if you want the fluid to flow faster, pump the brake pedal (slowly, releasing it slowly) with the Motive attached and pressurized. The only place air can theoretically get it is around the threads of the bleeder screws if your drain hose is full of fluid and immersed in fluid in the catch bottle (which is standard practice). In the unlikely event some air does get drawn in on the return pedal stroke, it will be expelled immediately by the pressurized flow from the Motive, even if that flow is slow.

You beat me to my own resolution.

I spoke with a friend, whose opinion I value greatly on all matters automotive, and this was his suggestion. When working on the car, I tossed around the idea of doing this, simply because ~15psi from the Motive is nothing compared to pedal force, but was leery of exploding the master cyl, or having the reservoir burst as you're putting pressure on both ends, so to speak. He (and subsequently you) confirmed that this would be a non-issue.

Pedal feel is the same as it was before this current round of bleeding, which is to say, not bad. Activating ABS is still possible. However, the first inch or so of pedal stroke is just dead zone, so it doesn't communicate/articulate as well.

Will be applying this solution in the near future, as my schedule permits.

[mlifxs]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

Pressure is pressure - first lesson in hydraulics. Not only that but there is an air spring in the Motive (you pump it up) and there is another air spring in the master cylinder reservoir (because the motive pressurizes the air space that you left in the reservoir when you started). Conclusion: dry = wet.

The volume of fluid in the brake lines themselves is negligible. Also fresh fluid immediately displaces the old fluid in the lines. At the calipers, the fluid has to get changed by progressive dilution. That takes a while.

The first caliper you bleed also has to deal with the progressive dilution of the old fluid remaining in the reservoir when you start. You suck out all you can before starting to reduce the amount of new fluid needed to do this.

The amount of fluid needed is a judgement call, made easier if you alternate coloured fluids.

The pressure bleeder doesn't touch any fluid accumulated in the ABS unit, but that is likely too little to be worried about.

Given that you shouldn't store brake fluid after the container has been opened, 1.0 litre is "sufficient" for a full flush, unless you buy your fluid in 0.8 litre bottles ...

This is nonsense. The point of the Motive is convenience. And if you do run your reservoir dry by mistake, that would be really inconvenient.

Final obvious observation - if you want the fluid to flow faster, pump the brake pedal (slowly, releasing it slowly) with the Motive attached and pressurized. The only place air can theoretically get it is around the threads of the bleeder screws if your drain hose is full of fluid and immersed in fluid in the catch bottle (which is standard practice). In the unlikely event some air does get drawn in on the return pedal stroke, it will be expelled immediately by the pressurized flow from the Motive, even if that flow is slow.

regarding pump the brake pedal, in the 3 series Bentley manual, that's what they recommend....in addition to a pressure bleeder.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

I used it a few weeks ago. 10-13psi is plenty. Did you have air in the line between the Motive unit and the fluid res? Happened to me because I didn't initially place the rubber washer they provided in the cap at the end of the hose. After that the flow was better (around 75ml/minute). The bleeder screw only needs a 1/3 of a turn to flow.

My concern with the MotivePB is the micro bubbles that seem to appear. I ran out of fluid and will be doing again on the weekend.

Also concerned that this method does't flush the ABS unit and there seems no way other than a dealer-bleed to get the ABS unit to cycle?

I used 20 PSI on my Z4M. I have yet to do my 128, but will be doing it this spring.

I run my Motive-Type Bottle dry. I have a quick disconnect at the adapter that I can quickly add fluid to prevent it running dry, while still keeping pressure in the bottle.

As for ABS, you're correct in your statement. You will not be able to get the fluid out of ABS, but when you do your brake test, just make sure you activate ABS to have that fluid 'mix" with the other. In reality it will not that big of a difference with such little old fluid left.

[pj.rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I used 20 PSI on my Z4M. I have yet to do my 128, but will be doing it this spring.

I run my Motive-Type Bottle dry. I have a quick disconnect at the adapter that I can quickly add fluid to prevent it running dry, while still keeping pressure in the bottle.

Which bleeder do you have? Just curious. I want to keep my bleeder clean and dry also by doing the "empty" method. I've never seen one with a quick disconnect? Mine is a screw top. I have the bavarian bleeder

[Kgolf31]

I have the Bav Auto bleeder:



Part Number PB03

[dcaron9999]

I noticed no one mentioned about lightly tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet during the bleed, helps remove tiny air bubbles. You end up with a firmer pedal. I use 20PSI in my Motive bleeder.

Bleeding the longest brake line (rear passenger caliper) first, and the shortest brake line last (front driver caliper). Probably obvious to all, but just thought I would mention ...

I typically use two 500ml bottles, and I usually have enough for two cycles of bleeding.

I check on my pump bleeder liquid level, and pump back up to 20 psi, every two bleeds. Dont want to run out or run the reservoir dry...

I ensure the tubing is dipping in the purge bottle liquid before shutting down the bleed screw, to prevent sucking ari back into the caliper.

so to summarize, brake bleeding sequence on LHD cars ...
1-rear right
2-rear left
3-front right
4 front left

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

I noticed no one mentioned about lightly tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet during the bleed, helps remove tiny air bubbles. You end up with a firmer pedal. I use 20PSI in my Motive bleeder.

Bleeding the longest brake line (rear passenger caliper) first, and the shortest brake line last (front driver caliper). Probably obvious to all, but just thought I would mention ...

I typically use two 500ml bottles, and I usually have enough for two cycles of bleeding.

I check on my pump bleeder liquid level, and pump back up to 20 psi, every two bleeds. Dont want to run out or run the reservoir dry...

I ensure the tubing is dipping in the purge bottle liquid before shutting down the bleed screw, to prevent sucking ari back into the caliper.

so to summarize, brake bleeding sequence on LHD cars ...
1-rear right
2-rear left
3-front right
4 front left

I gave the calipers more than "a light tapping" with my rubber mallet. Didn't seem to do much. Otherwise, already applying all of these principles.

This thread is a useful resource for everyone, so all insights are welcome.

[pj.rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I have the Bav Auto bleeder:



Part Number PB03

I have the same one. There's a quick release lid for the brake fluid reservoir on this?