Can I use track pads in front with Cool Carbons in the rear?

[GaryS]

I use Cool Carbon S/Ts front and rear, but I'd like to start using something more aggressive for track days. If possible I'd like to get used to swapping the front pads first, before I start messing with the rears too. Is there something more aggressive that would work in front with Cool Carbons in the rear?

[pixelblue]

Ferrodo DS2500 are worth looking into. HPA sells them. I have heard great stuff about them but they have similar tolerances as CC. I was considering switching to them but I hear they make some noise and dust. I really can't complain about my CC. Five track days and still good for one more.

[GaryS]

Well I want to try real track pads because I was standing on the brake pedal last weekend and still scaring my instructor, and meanwhile half the other guys in my group have started using track pads.

But I'm not an experienced mechanic at all, so I'm worried that until I get it down I'll be at the track until 9:00 on Sunday nights putting the street pads back on.

I guess another option is changing the rear pads at home and changing the fronts at the track. Then I could use the DTC-70/DTC-60 combo that so many people recommend.

[pixelblue]

Too much hassle changing pads at the track especially if you are not use to doing it. Like I said I've been using CC since last year and I've posted very fast times. You may want to try altering your braking technique first

[Xaeryan]

It's not hard once you do it once or twice and are familiar with the intricacies - I can post the details from memory if you want (just did them a few hours ago).

I drive to/from the track on my light-track pads (HP+) with no issues - I'm just mindful that 1.) they won't work as well cold, and 2.) I should avoid using them as much as possible to prevent undoing the bedding process (not as big an issue with HP+, but with DTCs this would be more of an issue).
I plan on doing the same once I'm on DTCs as well.

Semi-off topic: I think it's a good idea to bed the pads beforehand on a quiet, open road anyway, instead of being a danger to others ontrack (it's not often I find enough clear traffic or track to do repeated 80-10 mph stops, and I'd have no way to follow it with a 15 minute no-braking period).

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Xaeryan

It's not hard once you do it once or twice and are familiar with the intricacies - I can post the details from memory if you want (just did them a few hours ago).

Thanks. I have a few questions. I've looked through some DIYs on changing brake pads, so I understand some of it. But I haven't even taken a wheel off yet.

I spent a few hours today having fun ordering tools, but I'm not sure about a few. I see there are some specialty brake tools advertised for BMW called brake pad spreaders and caliper piston tools. Do either of those help?

What about brake cleaner, a rubber mallet, caliper grease, white grease, Lubro Moly Anti-seize, or anti-squeal compound? The DIYs posted on 1addicts don't mention any of this stuff, but some other DIYs I've looked at do. Do I need any of that?

I'm going to get my feet wet by replacing my Cool Carbons with a new set. I don't have any stock OEM pads, so I'm hoping I can use the backing plates from the old Cool Carbons to hold the new track pads. Does anyone know if that's actually going to work?

Originally Posted by Xaeryan

Semi-off topic: I think it's a good idea to bed the pads beforehand on a quiet, open road anyway, instead of being a danger to others ontrack (it's not often I find enough clear traffic or track to do repeated 80-10 mph stops, and I'd have no way to follow it with a 15 minute no-braking period).

I notice several people swap between street and track rotors to avoid having to bed in over and over. Some people have told me that swapping rotors adds only a few minutes to changing the pads. So I'm wondering if I should do that. I don't see the cost of the rotors as an issue, because I'll have to buy new ones eventually anyway.

[Focusedintntions]

Gary, last track event I had to swap my pads out after 2 sessions due to a stuck piston. Changing the pads in the front can be tricky, and thanks to Kori, showed me a quick shortcut to get them done. I did them with very basic tools, spread the pistons with my hands while the calipers were still hot. Took me about 20-25 mins with the first side, and about 10-15's for the second side one i got the trick to putting the pads in. I wouldn't recommend learning at the track side if you aren't familiar with mechanical work you can avoid it. Take a day on teh weekend to mess with them. Try taking out the pads you have in there now and put them back in. Then imagine doing that when they're extremely hot haha.

[Xaeryan]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I spent a few hours today having fun ordering tools, but I'm not sure about a few. I see there are some specialty brake tools advertised for BMW called brake pad spreaders and caliper piston tools. Do either of those help?

Nah, crack the brake fluid reservoir open a bit to make it easier and with the original pads still in, you can push/pull them toward the pistons to get them (pistons) to back off a bit. You need to do this when the pads you're putting in are thicker. You'll feel them slide back. So no need for the spreader. Some cars have calipers where the pistons must rotate as they are pushed back (usually on the rears), otherwise the seals can be damaged, and there are various tools for this, but we do not need to do this - push/pull 'em straight back.

Originally Posted by GaryS

What about brake cleaner, a rubber mallet, caliper grease, white grease, Lubro Moly Anti-seize, or anti-squeal compound? The DIYs posted on 1addicts don't mention any of this stuff, but some other DIYs I've looked at do. Do I need any of that?

Rubber mallet is useful to pop off the front calipers - even with the mounting bolts out, they stick fast to the disc pretty good. Light tapping on the flat part of the calipers which point forward (aiming the hammer toward the back of the car), alternating between top and bottom, and they come off. You can do it without the mallet using the "wiggle hard" technique, but the mallet makes it quicker/easier.

Anti-squeal is up to you, make sure it's high temp stuff. My Hawks came with packets that I used. I don't think it would harm not having it.

No requirement for anti seize or white grease, although I use a light coating of anti seize on the wheel mounting surface of the discs during the winter months to prevent sticking. If you're swapping discs, the locating screws can often benefit from a light coat of anti-seize - I can't tell you how many cars I've seen with stuck locating screws.

I use Loc-Tite (blue) on the caliper mounting bolts just to be safe. Technically they are "stretch" bolts designed for one use only, but find me a tech that actually adheres to this (they're rare). Just make sure they are tightened properly.

Brake clean is useful if you get the discs dirty, but I don't bother - I just make sure I don't touch the discs on the brake pad surface. You don't want stuff on your discs to cause improper bedding.

Originally Posted by GaryS

I'm going to get my feet wet by replacing my Cool Carbons with a new set. I don't have any stock OEM pads, so I'm hoping I can use the backing plates from the old Cool Carbons to hold the new track pads. Does anyone know if that's actually going to work?

Depends on the track pads - my Hawks were clearly cut to match OEM size *without* the backing plate, meaning they basically need the backing plate, otherwise they were too loose for my comfort.

Originally Posted by GaryS

I notice several people swap between street and track rotors to avoid having to bed in over and over. Some people have told me that swapping rotors adds only a few minutes to changing the pads. So I'm wondering if I should do that. I don't see the cost of the rotors as an issue, because I'll have to buy new ones eventually anyway.

Really easy on the fronts - you already have the caliper off, so it's only one extra bolt (the "rotor locating screw"). The rears I haven't done this yet, so I can't comment on that yet.


A few things you probably already saw in the DIYs:

The four pad locating torx bolts on the front calipers can be backed off (don't remove them, just unscrew them to their last threads) and it can make it much easier to get the new pads in the right position (you don't have to fight the pad retaining spring). These are much easier to break loose while the caliper is still mounted (leverage). To get at the inner two, it's easiest if you have the wheel turned toward the opposite side.

The sensors (1 Front Left, 1 Rear Right) can be brittle when you try to pull them off the pads. They pry straight up from the "top" of the pads, but always seem to give me trouble. There's a little metal surface that popped out on mine every time I've done them, make sure you take note of this and ensure you put it back on. Alternatively, some people have bought replacement sensors, but if you're swapping a lot and monitoring the pads yourself, no point in wasting the money.

If this all sounds foreign, give it a shot one day as others have said. Then come back and re-read everything and it will all make sense. You can seriously get this down to under 15 minutes per corner while still being thorough.

[GaryS]

Wow, thanks Xaeryan. I think I'm good to go. My only worry is whether the Hawk pads will fit the Cool Carbon backing plates. I'll order the DTC70/60 pads today and find out pretty soon.

[Xaeryan]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Wow, thanks Xaeryan. I think I'm good to go. My only worry is whether the Hawk pads will fit the Cool Carbon backing plates. I'll order the DTC70/60 pads today and find out pretty soon.

Let me know - I had asked about that (whether they accept backing plates) in another thread but got no definite responses.

[and 1]

Originally Posted by Focusedintntions

Gary, last track event I had to swap my pads out after 2 sessions due to a stuck piston. Changing the pads in the front can be tricky, and thanks to Kori, showed me a quick shortcut to get them done. I did them with very basic tools, spread the pistons with my hands while the calipers were still hot. Took me about 20-25 mins with the first side, and about 10-15's for the second side one i got the trick to putting the pads in. I wouldn't recommend learning at the track side if you aren't familiar with mechanical work you can avoid it. Take a day on teh weekend to mess with them. Try taking out the pads you have in there now and put them back in. Then imagine doing that when they're extremely hot haha.

care to share this trick?

i can do my rears in no time, but the fronts are still a PITA

[Focusedintntions]

Hard to explain but you basically use a metal pick with a 90* bend in it to pull back the metal clip and the pads sorta pop into place. You never have to undo the torx bolts.

[and 1]

like an allen wrench? i know what you mean by lifting up the clip

[Focusedintntions]

Generally I've used something like this...

[and 1]

ohhhh ok....actually i think i still have a set of those from when i swapped out my kidney grilles

here's hoping it goes smoothly. i'll be swapping pads first thing in the morning at tremblant...next effing weekend! zomfg are we there yet???