Underbody Suspension Rust

[champignon]

Originally Posted by autosense

Can you share a pic of the underbody?

I'm actually going through a similar situation. Based on my situation, we could replace the bolts with new ones? on the control arms, exhaust, and other areas.

Where could we get replacement bolts/fasteners? I'm sure on ECS but what are their names?

after cleaning did you apply protectants? Like AMMONYC's wheel protection? or other "wax" type products?

Can you share a pic?

I may have some pictures at home, where the car is, but I'm currently in France and will not be back where the car is for at least a week and a half, so I don't have any pictures to share now. If any old pictures exist they are on the SD card of a camera I don't use much anymore.

What I did was to use a pressure washer underneath repeatedly until I got all of the dirt and salt caking off of the underside of the car. Once the car had dried out, I then applied Corroseal

http://www.corroseal.com/

liberally, a number of coats slathered on with paint brushes to every part of the underside that I could reach. The result was that virtually all of the apparent rust turned black, which is what the manufacturer says should happen. Supposedly this turns the rust into a stable form of iron oxide that doesn't further corrode. My mechanic, who is the lead tech at my BMW dealer, inspected the car underneath both before and after I did this. He had been concerned somewhat about the appearance before the application, since it showed worse corrosion than is normally seen in this part of the country (southern Idaho). Afterwards, he said it looked "much improved." He did not advise doing anything else, such as replacing fasteners, etc. I have had no issues with the car since, certainly nothing related to body or suspension corrosion. Barring some reason to muck around under there, I was prepared to leave well enough alone. If some of these parts need to be replaced in the future, then that issue will have to be dealt with then, but I don't expect it to be a major problem.

My car was exposed to about 2.5 Toronto winters, was driven in the snow, but was a low mileage car when I bought it (~26K miles at close to 3.5 years of age. The car was always garaged, even in Toronto. In my own usage of the car, I do not have snow tires and the car is only driven in late spring, summer, and fall. I have only put around 4000 miles on the car now in a bit less than 3 years of my own ownership. I don't think there will be any further corrosion-related issues with this car so long as it continues to be a summer car.

Your car might have been more exposed than mine was and may be more corroded. I will try to get you some current pics in a few weeks if I can.

[autosense]

I'll try to get pics too.

Did you put Corroseal on the bolts/fasteners too? How did it turn out? Does it create a seal which would make it difficult to remove them later??

[Happy Jose]

Rust you can see isn't a problem. It's the rust you can't see that'll cause the problems.

In your case, you aren't looking in the right places. You have to take off fender & quarter panel liners and any coverings that hide the car's metal structure. You'll have to look inside the quarter panels, rocker covers, around the head lights, etc.

With the conditions you described, you'll have rust in these areas hidden from view.

I've had several professional vehicles restorations done, and while a car might look great, it can be a rusted out wreck. The moral is to find out exactly where the vehicle has spent its life.

[Happy Jose]

I should add the precursors of rust are salt, moisture, dirt, & road debris which migrate up into the metal structures of the body. The only way to combat against these destructive elements is to frequently wash the underside of the car's body.

On my One, I have a monthly plan with an automated car wash. I have an RFID sticker on my windshield. I simply drive through without having the hassle of making a payment on the sport and a couple of minutes the car is clean. BTW, make sure you make sure the underbody wash is included in your plan.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

Rust you can see isn't a problem. It's the rust you can't see that'll cause the problems.

In your case, you aren't looking in the right places. You have to take off fender & quarter panel liners and any coverings that hide the car's metal structure. You'll have to look inside the quarter panels, rocker covers, around the head lights, etc.

With the conditions you described, you'll have rust in these areas hidden from view.

I've had several professional vehicles restorations done, and while a car might look great, it can be a rusted out wreck. The moral is to find out exactly where the vehicle has spent its life.

I have seen rusted out cars, too, and even bought one by accident. They have generally been ones extensively driven in the snow in the NE and Central North America where lots of road salt is used, and the cars have been driven in it for quite a few years. In addition, cars made ~20 and more years ago were much more susceptible to rust than more recently manufactured vehicles, as the manufacturers' rust proofing processes have greatly improved.

Are you proposing that a car that had exposure for several years and never gets any more exposure is going to rust out just from the earlier exposure that it had? I guess that is possible, but given that rust is a chemical reaction, the absence of further exposure to what exacerbates rust makes me think that this is unlikely.

[Happy Jose]

Once rust starts, it doesn't stop. It may not be serious or notable at first, but given time, sometime years, it'll do serious damage.

If you have any rust or deterioration you can see, you can bet it has gotten a foothold somewhere you can't see. Also it takes more than just scraping it out and covering it with some kind of goop. It usually takes cutting out the rusty section or replacing the panel, fender, etc.

The guy above is just rationalizing his faulty belief it isn't possible his car could have any rust. He's afraid to look into those dark hidden crevices which his car has plenty.

For those who care, start by lifting up all carpeting and removing all interior plastic panels. A good place to start is the trunk. Here's an example of just how bad rust can get:

Now I know his car isn't in this bad of shape, but it's instructive where to look for problems.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

Once rust starts, it doesn't stop. It may not be serious or notable at first, but given time, sometime years, it'll do serious damage.

If you have any rust or deterioration you can see, you can bet it has gotten a foothold somewhere you can't see. Also it takes more than just scraping it out and covering it with some kind of goop. It usually takes cutting out the rusty section or replacing the panel, fender, etc.

The guy above is just rationalizing his faulty belief it isn't possible his car could have any rust. He's afraid to look into those dark hidden crevices which his car has plenty.

For those who care, start by lifting up all carpeting and removing all interior plastic panels. A good place to start is the trunk. Here's an example of just how bad rust can get:

Now I know his car isn't in this bad of shape, but it's instructive where to look for problems.

We've all seen videos like this and many of us have seen cars like this, however what you post is not relevant to modern cars, which have way better rustproofing than anything made in your example from 1969. It is just, excuse me, total horseshit to post this sort of material and try to tell people that this is representative of what happens in cars manufactured in 2011 (as 1M vehicles were).

Rust is of course a chemical reaction and I have no doubt that were someone to take my car completely apart, they would find some areas of hidden body and other rust. What I do sincerely doubt is that within the lifespan of a modern car, that a few years of exposure and then no further exposure will end up in a rusted out vehicle. Do you have any proof of that? Of course not, you do not.

[NorthernDancer]

Happy Jose is very right in encouraging you to remove front and rear bumpers to check for rust hidden in there. Try to not drive your car in the rain to keep the bottom as dry as possible. AND as others have said, drive your car and enjoy it-you've done enough to stop further rust.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by NorthernDancer

Happy Jose is very right in encouraging you to remove front and rear bumpers to check for rust hidden in there. Try to not drive your car in the rain to keep the bottom as dry as possible. AND as others have said, drive your car and enjoy it-you've done enough to stop further rust.

The car lives on a car lift for months at a time. This means that it is fairly easy to look at parts of the car that are otherwise hidden from view, and I have done that; there really isn't anything to see.

Again, what exactly would be learned by removing bumpers at this point and what further action would be taken? I'd think nothing, given that there is zero evidence of any body rust anywhere, and the only rust that was visible was superficial and on some suspension and undercarriage parts.

Also, it's pretty obvious that most cars that live and are driven regularly in road salt are going to have some rust on them; I don't know how you prevent that even with regular under-body washing. The road salt is going to get into hard to clean and wash places and there will be some corrosion occurring. Once this process starts, what exactly is the difference in reactivating/encouraging it between washing the underbody repeatedly, vs. driving in the rain? It's all water and it is going to get splashed into places.

From a practical standpoint, in my own case, the car is a fine weather car that is not driven in inclement weather, and has been such since I personally took possession of it almost 3 years ago, when it was 3+ years old.

All sorts of stuff is said about car rust and very little evidence is given to support what is being said. Here is what I know to be true, from personal observations and personal experience:

(1) Cars produced decades ago had very little to no rustproofing and it took relatively little time for them to have body panel rust through, when they were driven in snowy climates in places where road salt applications are intense, such as the NE and Central parts of N. America. There were commercial treatments at the time that some people used and in retrospect some or all of them were found to actually promote rusting, by making holes in body panels, etc.

(2) More recently produced cars have extensive rust-proofing done to them in the manufacturing process. This does not make them "rust-proof," however it significantly delays rust-through. As a result, manufacturers usually offer rust-through guarantees, which apply wherever the cars are driven, and which would not be offered if the manufacturers expected to have to fulfill them. The shortest rust-through guarantees that I can remember on cars produced in the last decade have been on the order of 60 months.

(3) If you have body panel rust anywhere it is likely that you have it in many places;

(4) Cars do not last forever even if they do not rust through;

The question that was originally posed in this thread, and subsequently asked again by another forum participant, has to do with cars that were initially exposed to road salt and are not being further exposed; in the presence of superficial rust on the undercarriage, what is the risk of continuing rust progression if the car is no longer exposed to the conditions that caused the rust to occur in the first place? And yes, one can assume that if there is visible even if superficial, rust on the undercarriage, there is likely some rust elsewhere, which does not mean it is rust that is going to perforate anything, anytime soon.

That question hasn't been answered, but common sense would appear to indicate that such a car is not going to continue "rusting" at anywhere near the rate that it would have rusted if it were to be continually exposed to wet road salt. My guess is that it is unlikely to present a real problem going forward to future owners who don't continually expose the car to that which causes the problem in the first place.

It would be cool if someone who actually has some first-hand knowledge of this situation, someone who works in a body shop, or a tech, for example, who sees this scenario, could comment on this beyond using references to cars built differently decades ago, or referring to cars that are continually and constantly exposed to the same conditions (wet road salt) for their entire lives.

[Happy Jose]

The OP is the guy full of horseshit, but I do give him high marks for saying the same thing over and over again.

Yup cars are built better today. Instead of rusting out in a year or two, they now take 5 or 6. LOL!

I have a body shop that does all my work, and I have inspected plenty of "modern cars" with serious rust. The vehicles that seldom have rust problems are the ones which weren't driven in salt and had frequent underbody washings to remove dirt which traps moisture and salt.

And expensive cars rust out just as fast as the cheap ones. I recently looked at 5 year old Bentley which has serious rust in the rockers. I also observed the same in a fairly new Porsche SUV. The internet has plenty of example of problem rust in fairly new cars or visit any junkyard where there are plenty of late model wrecks.

But what's the point? The OP came to the forum worried about his car having rust, and the he does everything to defend his car as the perfection of autombiledom.

Not a chance in hell. A 1M is now what 7 or 8 years old? If you want to keep this car as a garage queen, you had better start tearing it apart and inspecting it. If not already there, the little bubbles will start showing up. Unfortunately for the car, the OP is so myopic he'll never see them.

Regarding the value of the 1M, if you can find someone to sell it to for an outrageous price, I'd advise a sale. BTW, buying and selling car was one a hobby. Now it occupies me full time, so I'm looking at cars all the time.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

The OP is the guy full of horseshit, but I do give him high marks for saying the same thing over and over again.

Yup cars are built better today. Instead of rusting out in a year or two, they now take 5 or 6. LOL!

I have a body shop that does all my work, and I have inspected plenty of "modern cars" with serious rust. The vehicles that seldom have rust problems are the ones which weren't driven in salt and had frequent underbody washings to remove dirt which traps moisture and salt.

And expensive cars rust out just as fast as the cheap ones. I recently looked at 5 year old Bentley which has serious rust in the rockers. I also observed the same in a fairly new Porsche SUV. The internet has plenty of example of problem rust in fairly new cars or visit any junkyard where there are plenty of late model wrecks.

But what's the point? The OP came to the forum worried about his car having rust, and the he does everything to defend his car as the perfection of autombiledom.

Not a chance in hell. A 1M is now what 7 or 8 years old? If you want to keep this car as a garage queen, you had better start tearing it apart and inspecting it. If not already there, the little bubbles will start showing up. Unfortunately for the car, the OP is so myopic he'll never see them.

Regarding the value of the 1M, if you can find someone to sell it to for an outrageous price, I'd advise a sale. BTW, buying and selling car was one a hobby. Now it occupies me full time, so I'm looking at cars all the time.

Again, a totally unresponsive and arrogant post. So what you are saying is that a car that had some salt exposure over 2-3 winters, that has been fully washed underneath and not exposed to anything since, is going to continue to rust out like all these cars you describe that do not have the same usage and storage pattern?

And if you were correct, which I sincerely doubt, you obviously don't make any effort to consider other factors that might be relevant, for example the relative humidity the car lives in and where it is stored? Rusting is a chemical reaction that requires more than simply time to advance.

It's irrelevant what you do with your time now. Lots of people have exposure to all sorts of things and learn little or nothing in the process.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

Rust doesn't have to be destructive. Oxidation on cast iron brakes is rust, no matter what you call it.

Not sure how much more simple I can make it, iron oxide is rust.

Iron Man talking about rust!

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

The OP is the guy full of horseshit, but I do give him high marks for saying the same thing over and over again.

Yup cars are built better today. Instead of rusting out in a year or two, they now take 5 or 6. LOL!

I have a body shop that does all my work, and I have inspected plenty of "modern cars" with serious rust. The vehicles that seldom have rust problems are the ones which weren't driven in salt and had frequent underbody washings to remove dirt which traps moisture and salt.

And expensive cars rust out just as fast as the cheap ones. I recently looked at 5 year old Bentley which has serious rust in the rockers. I also observed the same in a fairly new Porsche SUV. The internet has plenty of example of problem rust in fairly new cars or visit any junkyard where there are plenty of late model wrecks.

But what's the point? The OP came to the forum worried about his car having rust, and the he does everything to defend his car as the perfection of autombiledom.

Not a chance in hell. A 1M is now what 7 or 8 years old? If you want to keep this car as a garage queen, you had better start tearing it apart and inspecting it. If not already there, the little bubbles will start showing up. Unfortunately for the car, the OP is so myopic he'll never see them.

Regarding the value of the 1M, if you can find someone to sell it to for an outrageous price, I'd advise a sale. BTW, buying and selling car was one a hobby. Now it occupies me full time, so I'm looking at cars all the time.

Typical Unhappy Jose dickery!

[Happy Jose]

Originally Posted by champignon

Again, a totally unresponsive and arrogant post. So what you are saying is that a car that had some salt exposure over 2-3 winters, that has been fully washed underneath and not exposed to anything since, is going to continue to rust out like all these cars you describe that do not have the same usage and storage pattern?

And if you were correct, which I sincerely doubt, you obviously don't make any effort to consider other factors that might be relevant, for example the relative humidity the car lives in and where it is stored? Rusting is a chemical reaction that requires more than simply time to advance.

It's irrelevant what you do with your time now. Lots of people have exposure to all sorts of things and learn little or nothing in the process.

All metal needs to rust is oxygen. Add some moisture and the process speeds up. What more do you need to know? The only way to combat it is to protect metal surfaces with some sort of protective coating. Unfortunately, the underside of a car isn't ideally protected from damage from road debris like rocks or just plain dirt that traps moisture. In fact, manufacturer often don't do a very good job of protecting the under carriage.

Yes rust is a chemical reaction. Just how many times do you need to say this? Just about everything in our world is a chemical reaction even digesting our lunch. I'd bet some hidden area of your precious car is suffering a chemical reaction right now.

And you keep denigrating my experience with automobiles. You make a lot of claims about thoroughly cleaning out the salt, but it wasn't supposedly addressed until you bought the car. Even then, you are just speculating about ridding the car of all traces of salt. Assume you did? Any untreated damage done by its presence will continue to grow. You really haven't examined all areas of the car for rust. What you are doing is just praying you did enough to stop it.

I'm tired of your arrogance and ignorance especially with a subject you have had very little experience with. I've bought and sold thousands of car, and a good number were "modern cars". I haven't seen one yet that didn't have some rust somewhere. It is just a matter of opening your eyes and really looking and not rationalizing your feeble attempts to address the problem.

Finally BMW & Mercedes will give you 100% guarantee against any rust through on body panels if you'll always have the car serviced by them. Obviously, if they see any rust, they'll point it out and direct you to their body shop for repair.

All makers know they can't really guarantee against rust. The hook is the car will be traded or junked before a claim is made. Anyway, for me, this subject is closed.

[champignon]

No point in responding to someone who either can't comprehend what he reads, or refuses to do so.

I have no doubt that there is hidden rust on my car. I also don't question that depending on future usage and how it is stored, that there will be evident rust going through body panels after _______ (period of time).

If the period of time is 2 years from now, I'm concerned. If on the other hand the period of time is 30 years from now, with the car used as a warm weather car in clement weather, I could care less. I'll be dead and/or incapacitated at that time, and having the car rust out will be the least of my problems. If the car does visibly rust at some point, be it 2 months or 50 years from now, it is not going to effect either my ego or my finances.

The reality is that this is going to take a long time to happen, with a car only exposed for a few years and then later used solely in warm dry weather and living in a dry climate. Obviously, there are no guarantees, but odds are, this is what will happen, regardless of anything unhappy Joe says.

Using common sense alone and the experience I and others have had in the past with rusting cars (yes, I had one a long time ago, and had work done on it) even when a car is continually exposed to salty roads, the process does not happen overnight.

Forgetting this one individual's arrogance, if anyone else does have some experience with a snow country car that was exposed for a few years and then never exposed again, please chime in with your own observations. They would be appreciated.

[Gangplank]

One man's rust is another mans patina.

[Happy Jose]

Originally Posted by champignon

No point in responding to someone who either can't comprehend what he reads, or refuses to do so.

I have no doubt that there is hidden rust on my car. I also don't question that depending on future usage and how it is stored, that there will be evident rust going through body panels after _______ (period of time).

If the period of time is 2 years from now, I'm concerned. If on the other hand the period of time is 30 years from now, with the car used as a warm weather car in clement weather, I could care less. I'll be dead and/or incapacitated at that time, and having the car rust out will be the least of my problems. If the car does visibly rust at some point, be it 2 months or 50 years from now, it is not going to effect either my ego or my finances.

The reality is that this is going to take a long time to happen, with a car only exposed for a few years and then later used solely in warm dry weather and living in a dry climate. Obviously, there are no guarantees, but odds are, this is what will happen, regardless of anything unhappy Joe says.

Using common sense alone and the experience I and others have had in the past with rusting cars (yes, I had one a long time ago, and had work done on it) even when a car is continually exposed to salty roads, the process does not happen overnight.

Forgetting this one individual's arrogance, if anyone else does have some experience with a snow country car that was exposed for a few years and then never exposed again, please chime in with your own observations. They would be appreciated.

One assumption after another. I've changed my opinion of you. You've been a short bus passenger and continue to be!

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

sure but for example brake discs get oxidation on them---we don't consider that 'rust'. it's not destructive. it may look like rust but it doesn't infiltrate the disc just sits on top. know what I mean!

Rust is rust.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

One assumption after another. I've changed my opinion of you. You've been a short bus passenger and continue to be!

I have no opinion of you other than that if I met you in person I would probably quickly head in the opposite direction, since I don't much care for dickheads.

[champignon]

Now back from a long trip, I took two cars in to my dealer earlier this week for service. I arranged to speak with my tech who is the lead tech for the dealership, and the guy who works on my 1M. Among other things, he was the guy who spent 2 days tracking down the battery leak in the car, which turned out to be from a hidden Lojack device installed by the former owner than no one knew was in there. This was 2+ years ago. In the process he disassembled and then reassembled a large part of the car's interior in order to find the thing, remove it, and patch the wiring.

I discussed the undercarriage corrosion on the car that he had pointed out to me when I had them put the car up on the lift for an inspection shortly after receiving it. When I recalled this, the tech cut me off when I said that he was "concerned" about this, and he said I was overstating it, rather he "noticed" it as being somewhat worse than he sees here in S. Idaho, but he was not concerned about it.

I discussed with him his observations on rust-belt cars brought to Idaho and driven here later, and what happens with the rust here? He said that he has seen a number of cars like that and that other than for ones that have accumulated a lot of mileage and driven for many years back east first, he has not seen any rust through or progression of the rust once the car gets here and stays here. He went so far as to say that the rusting stops because the climate here is very dry (both that there isn't much precipitation and the air has very low relative humidity) plus there's hardly any road salt used here when it does snow. He said he has no concern about my car rusting through.

I then mentioned the possibility of taking off bumpers and looking for hidden rust. He said that he could do that, and it would take about an hour's time to remove and reinstall a bumper. He said that in his opinion this would be a waste of money, and instead suggested that he could use a boroscope to get most of the same information, and that this would cost very little to do.

So, we'll do that when I bring the car in for its next service this summer. For now, I'll concentrate on avoiding unhappy Joe should our paths cross in real or virtual reality.

[Happy Jose]

Originally Posted by champignon

I have no opinion of you other than that if I met you in person I would probably quickly head in the opposite direction, since I don't much care for dickheads.

In that case, you must hate yourself, Dickhead!

We have a group of people here that I refer to as the Los Retrasados! They discourage any discussion that conflicts with their myopia. I have put this group of dimwits on my ignore list. Now I'm going to consign champignon to the same fate!

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Happy Jose

In that case, you must hate yourself, Dickhead!

We have a group of people here that I refer to as the Los Retrasados! They discourage any discussion that conflicts with their myopia. I have put this group of dimwits on my ignore list. Now I'm going to consign champignon to the same fate!

You must be the leader of the group that thinks nothing they say can be wrong, in bad taste, or insulting, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary!