How to handle the 1M during a spin-out?

Tom303 · 04-11-2013, 02:09 PM

I need some advice on controlling the beast during a spin-out.

I participated in my second BMW CCA ADSS (Advance Driving Skills School) but this was the first time with my 1M.

During the wet skid pad excercise, I was practicing my oversteer skid control and would give too much input causing me to spin-out. The instructor kept on saying both feet-in. I did but the brakes felt like I was standing on a brick and the car kept rolling to a slow stop.

All electric nannies were off. I do not remember my 135i doing this rolling to a stop. My instructor said it felt like the ABS was trying to work.

When I say rolling, I mean like half a car length before the car would come to a complete stop. Good thing there were nothing for me to run into.

Is this normal?

Has this happened to anyone else with a 1M?

Should I be calm during a spin-out and lightly press down on the brakes (with the clutch in of course)?

de85275 · 04-11-2013, 09:31 PM

Hang on and pretend it's a plan.

Artemis · 04-11-2013, 10:26 PM

On a side note: collision avoidance.

Try to resist the natural panic reflex to look at obstacles, but look where you wanna go.

Interesting read: http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-an-Obst...ce-Without-ABS ("How to Avoid an Obstacle on a Slippery Surface Without ABS"):
"Look where you want the car to go (the solution) and not at the obstacle (the problem). This will allow you to steer away from the obstacle and to get over the urge to stay on the brakes. The way to do this is:
- shake your whole head away from the obstacle: this will force your eyes to follow.
- focus on a visual target down the road in which you seek to escape."

Of course, that's easier said than done, once you get into an emergency situation...

Dackelone · 04-11-2013, 10:59 PM

When the rear end breaks loose... the last thing you want to do is get on the brakes and transfer more weight to the front. You would only use the brakes to stop the car from rotating or hitting something or leaving the road?skid pad.

The best plan of attack is to feather the throttle and maintain the oversteer. IF you feel the rear end is lost, then get on the brakes. I assume this is when your having the problem.

Pete_vB · 04-11-2013, 11:17 PM

So you're talking about after you've lost the car, how do you bring it safely to a stop?

Both feet in is the right advice there. What you're describing with the brake pedal sounds like it was invoking ice mode. Certain pavement and conditions can provoke this- it's designed to keep the wheels from locking even under very slippery conditions, and when it activates the braking force is dramatically reduced. I've had it happen a few times in one particular part of a course a couple weeks ago, and I didn't figure out a good way to get out of it other than not invoking it in the first place.

In a spin I'd try pumping the brake pedal or less brake pressure, but I have no idea of this would correct the issue. Might be better to just focus on avoiding the spin in the first place?

Pete_vB · 04-11-2013, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian///M

It is VERY difficult to hold a drift for more than 3/4 of a circle on a wet skid pan. The back end snaps around too quickly and once past a certain angle impossible to correct.... even the instructor struggled when I gave him a go.

This is on the stock PS2s I assume? I was very impressed at how much difference tires made to drift-ability. PSS are better than the PS2s, but RS3s and 18s make the car a drift machine. Slow in the wet of course, but easy to hold and recover from all kinds of sideways.

Kgolf31 · 04-12-2013, 01:32 AM

If you loop the car, hard as hell on the brake and clutch in. Clutch in is sooooo important so you don't spin the oil nut off.

I know the exact feeling you're describing. The skid pad, is well a skid pad, slippery. I learned car control with an E60 M5 on a skid pad. Looping it is easy with too much throttle, but when you're on the brake it seems like you have no brakes and then the car kicks in and finally stops.

You essentially have no traction. The brakes are doing all they can (and you're feeling ABS go insane) but the tires can grip. The car is a light feeling because you're looping it, but once it settles down it will stop.

Looping on a skid pad doesn't transfer over into real life. The car will stop.

Here is a nice lift off oversteer I did at autocross

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hqT0OgjySWQ

I wasn't on the brakes until I decided to nail the last slalom cone and finally lost it (I was bouncing off the 2nd gear limiter which was 65 into the slalom. I was flying). You can see how the car pauses, and then grips and stops. Fairly quick.

Don't be a hero, if you're loosing it give up. You always want a car you can drive off the track

sparoz · 04-12-2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom303

I need some advice on controlling the beast during a spin-out.

I participated in my second BMW CCA ADSS (Advance Driving Skills School) but this was the first time with my 1M.

During the wet skid pad excercise, I was practicing my oversteer skid control and would give too much input causing me to spin-out. The instructor kept on saying both feet-in. I did but the brakes felt like I was standing on a brick and the car kept rolling to a slow stop.

All electric nannies were off. I do not remember my 135i doing this rolling to a stop. My instructor said it felt like the ABS was trying to work.

When I say rolling, I mean like half a car length before the car would come to a complete stop. Good thing there were nothing for me to run into.

Is this normal?

Has this happened to anyone else with a 1M?

Should I be calm during a spin-out and lightly press down on the brakes (with the clutch in of course)?

Just to check you haven't stalled?

Tom303 · 04-12-2013, 07:40 AM

Thanks all for your responses.

sparoz- I have not stalled. What I am surprised at is that the brake pedal does not move at all. The car is rolling to a stop. Rolling to a stop isn't a big deal unless your are trying to avoid hitting something. I read a similar experience from another driver and he end up using his emergency brake to stop the rolling to avoid hitting an object.

Underwood · 04-12-2013, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dackelone

When the rear end breaks loose... the last thing you want to do is get on the brakes and transfer more weight to the front. You would only use the brakes to stop the car from rotating or hitting something or leaving the road?skid pad.

The best plan of attack is to feather the throttle and maintain the oversteer. IF you feel the rear end is lost, then get on the brakes. I assume this is when your having the problem.

I second this.

My experience with the car always tells me to steer towards where the car is suppose to go and balance with throttle. Worst thing you can do is shift the balance forward with brakes, and don't send a text message while doing it. The 1M is all about reaction and quick response, but dealt correctly - it's the best handling (read most fun) chassie I've ever driven.

MDORPHN · 04-12-2013, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

So you're talking about after you've lost the car, how do you bring it safely to a stop?

Both feet in is the right advice there. What you're describing with the brake pedal sounds like it was invoking ice mode. Certain pavement and conditions can provoke this- it's designed to keep the wheels from locking even under very slippery conditions, and when it activates the braking force is dramatically reduced. I've had it happen a few times in one particular part of a course a couple weeks ago, and I didn't figure out a good way to get out of it other than not invoking it in the first place.

In a spin I'd try pumping the brake pedal or less brake pressure, but I have no idea of this would correct the issue. Might be better to just focus on avoiding the spin in the first place?

+1 re: ice mode.

I still instruct (and occassionally perform) both feet in when going into a spin (i.e., after you've lost it).

In the pre-ABS days, this would prevent you from shooting off the track -- you'd essentially do a pirouette (sp?). ABS complicates this some and can lead to some unpredictable outcomes.

Neil

Dackelone · 04-12-2013, 08:42 AM

One other "tool" to have in one's bag of tricks is... when you have "lost" the rear.... and you realize you will be leaving the road shortly... (but you haven't just yet) try pushing in the clutch BUT STANDING on the brakes LOCKING all four wheels. (or if your car has ABS stay on the brake pedal 100% and let the ABS lock and unlock all four wheels.

What this does is gives all four wheels equal(a locked up tire will give you roughly 70% traction or near equeal(if you have ABS). THIS will stop the car from ROTATING and then you can regain control of your car and steer in the direction you WANT to GO!

Also... always LOOK where you WANT to GO. Often times people freak out or panic and lock onto that tree at the side of the road or other car or what have you... bc WHAT you look at is WHAT you will HIT! Always LOOK where you want to go. Sounds simple but its not.

On a side note... cops tell me this is what makes their hair stand up on end during a traffic stop... when you go to pull out your driver's lic or papers... ALWAYS break eye contact with the cop. BC... the cop knows you have to maintime eye contact in order to shoot your target... and when you keep looking at them as your hands are moving in the car... this makes the cop VERY uneasy. Same principle in practice.

Tom303 · 04-12-2013, 09:13 AM

Pete_vB- I think you hit it right on the head with your comment on "ice mode".

I had to google it with ABS. And from what I was reading it sounds like exactly what I am experiencing. During the spin-out when I jump on the brakes right away I experience this ice mode situation. Also from what I have been reading is that if this happens then release the brakes and re-applied to get out of "ice mode".

Thanks again for everyone's input.

04-11-2013, 02:09 PM	#1
Tom303 Private 11 Rep 85 Posts Drives: VO 1M Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Nashua, NH iTrader: (0)	How to handle the 1M during a spin-out? I need some advice on controlling the beast during a spin-out. I participated in my second BMW CCA ADSS (Advance Driving Skills School) but this was the first time with my 1M. During the wet skid pad excercise, I was practicing my oversteer skid control and would give too much input causing me to spin-out. The instructor kept on saying both feet-in. I did but the brakes felt like I was standing on a brick and the car kept rolling to a slow stop. All electric nannies were off. I do not remember my 135i doing this rolling to a stop. My instructor said it felt like the ABS was trying to work. When I say rolling, I mean like half a car length before the car would come to a complete stop. Good thing there were nothing for me to run into. Is this normal? Has this happened to anyone else with a 1M? Should I be calm during a spin-out and lightly press down on the brakes (with the clutch in of course)?
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04-11-2013, 09:31 PM	#2
de85275 Second Lieutenant 35 Rep 217 Posts Drives: Valencia Orange 424/740 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Delaware iTrader: (0) Garage List 2015 BMW X4 35i [0.00] 2014 Jeep JKU Rubicon [0.00] 2011 BMW 1 Series M [0.00]	Hang on and pretend it's a plan.
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04-11-2013, 10:26 PM	#3
Artemis Moderator 29278 Rep 13,090 Posts Drives: BMW M2 Competition Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Belgium iTrader: (0)	On a side note: collision avoidance. Try to resist the natural panic reflex to look at obstacles, but look where you wanna go. Interesting read: http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-an-Obst...ce-Without-ABS ("How to Avoid an Obstacle on a Slippery Surface Without ABS"): "Look where you want the car to go (the solution) and not at the obstacle (the problem). This will allow you to steer away from the obstacle and to get over the urge to stay on the brakes. The way to do this is: - shake your whole head away from the obstacle: this will force your eyes to follow. - focus on a visual target down the road in which you seek to escape." Of course, that's easier said than done, once you get into an emergency situation... __________________ ///M is art ↔ Artemis
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04-11-2013, 10:59 PM	#4
Dackelone European Editor 10528 Rep 22,992 Posts Drives: N54 e82 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bayern, Germany iTrader: (1)	When the rear end breaks loose... the last thing you want to do is get on the brakes and transfer more weight to the front. You would only use the brakes to stop the car from rotating or hitting something or leaving the road?skid pad. The best plan of attack is to feather the throttle and maintain the oversteer. IF you feel the rear end is lost, then get on the brakes. I assume this is when your having the problem. __________________ Dackel's European Delivery Museum Guide
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04-11-2013, 11:17 PM	#5
Pete_vB Captain 118 Rep 898 Posts Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman iTrader: (0)	So you're talking about after you've lost the car, how do you bring it safely to a stop? Both feet in is the right advice there. What you're describing with the brake pedal sounds like it was invoking ice mode. Certain pavement and conditions can provoke this- it's designed to keep the wheels from locking even under very slippery conditions, and when it activates the braking force is dramatically reduced. I've had it happen a few times in one particular part of a course a couple weeks ago, and I didn't figure out a good way to get out of it other than not invoking it in the first place. In a spin I'd try pumping the brake pedal or less brake pressure, but I have no idea of this would correct the issue. Might be better to just focus on avoiding the spin in the first place? __________________ 1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
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04-12-2013, 01:32 AM	#7
Kgolf31 Brigadier General 459 Rep 4,531 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Ohio iTrader: (4)	If you loop the car, hard as hell on the brake and clutch in. Clutch in is sooooo important so you don't spin the oil nut off. I know the exact feeling you're describing. The skid pad, is well a skid pad, slippery. I learned car control with an E60 M5 on a skid pad. Looping it is easy with too much throttle, but when you're on the brake it seems like you have no brakes and then the car kicks in and finally stops. You essentially have no traction. The brakes are doing all they can (and you're feeling ABS go insane) but the tires can grip. The car is a light feeling because you're looping it, but once it settles down it will stop. Looping on a skid pad doesn't transfer over into real life. The car will stop. Here is a nice lift off oversteer I did at autocross http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hqT0OgjySWQ I wasn't on the brakes until I decided to nail the last slalom cone and finally lost it (I was bouncing off the 2nd gear limiter which was 65 into the slalom. I was flying). You can see how the car pauses, and then grips and stops. Fairly quick. Don't be a hero, if you're loosing it give up. You always want a car you can drive off the track
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04-12-2013, 07:40 AM	#9
Tom303 Private 11 Rep 85 Posts Drives: VO 1M Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Nashua, NH iTrader: (0)	Thanks all for your responses. sparoz- I have not stalled. What I am surprised at is that the brake pedal does not move at all. The car is rolling to a stop. Rolling to a stop isn't a big deal unless your are trying to avoid hitting something. I read a similar experience from another driver and he end up using his emergency brake to stop the rolling to avoid hitting an object.
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04-12-2013, 08:42 AM	#12
Dackelone European Editor 10528 Rep 22,992 Posts Drives: N54 e82 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bayern, Germany iTrader: (1)	One other "tool" to have in one's bag of tricks is... when you have "lost" the rear.... and you realize you will be leaving the road shortly... (but you haven't just yet) try pushing in the clutch BUT STANDING on the brakes LOCKING all four wheels. (or if your car has ABS stay on the brake pedal 100% and let the ABS lock and unlock all four wheels. What this does is gives all four wheels equal(a locked up tire will give you roughly 70% traction or near equeal(if you have ABS). THIS will stop the car from ROTATING and then you can regain control of your car and steer in the direction you WANT to GO! Also... always LOOK where you WANT to GO. Often times people freak out or panic and lock onto that tree at the side of the road or other car or what have you... bc WHAT you look at is WHAT you will HIT! Always LOOK where you want to go. Sounds simple but its not. On a side note... cops tell me this is what makes their hair stand up on end during a traffic stop... when you go to pull out your driver's lic or papers... ALWAYS break eye contact with the cop. BC... the cop knows you have to maintime eye contact in order to shoot your target... and when you keep looking at them as your hands are moving in the car... this makes the cop VERY uneasy. Same principle in practice. __________________ Dackel's European Delivery Museum Guide
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04-12-2013, 09:13 AM	#13
Tom303 Private 11 Rep 85 Posts Drives: VO 1M Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Nashua, NH iTrader: (0)	Pete_vB- I think you hit it right on the head with your comment on "ice mode". I had to google it with ABS. And from what I was reading it sounds like exactly what I am experiencing. During the spin-out when I jump on the brakes right away I experience this ice mode situation. Also from what I have been reading is that if this happens then release the brakes and re-applied to get out of "ice mode". Thanks again for everyone's input.
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