Dinan Stage 2 v Stock - my dyno results

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by michifan

What part isn't entirely true? All warranties are insurance. Dinan is selling you a moderately aggressive tune and insuring that if, specifically, their tune (or any other mod that they sell) creates a problem that voids your warranty in the first 50,000 miles, they'll fix it. After that, you are on your own.

Of course, if you purchase other mods (other than Dinan), they'll point to that being the cause of the problem (and given their moderate tune, it probably is).

I'd like to hear about ONE person that has had a warranty failure due to a JB3 running at Map 3 - NO OTHER MODS.

Again, I have respect for Dinan - they run a good business and do put out good products. If it's worth it to you to spend $1,500 for the elimination of pulling out a piggyback mod 1-2x per year before you go to the dealer - respect.

End of the day, until you get to the very serious boost pressures and catless mods, the likelihood that a moderate boost will cause any problems in the first 50,000 is almost infinitesimal.

This is a BMW. Things always go wrong. I've brought my car to the dealership at least 10 times in the past year. I've had my car re-flashed 4 times now. It's definitely worth it to me.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

This is a BMW. Things always go wrong. I've brought my car to the dealership at least 10 times in the past year. I've had my car re-flashed 4 times now. It's definitely worth it to me.

i'm in my second year and outside of the oil changes (2), recall (with the oil change) and replacing my wheels - that's the sum of my dealer experience.

Maybe I'm brave, but I left my BMS in the car all three times (I have no other mods yet) and my SA is the one that recommended that I use BMS.

I looked at the Dinan tune, but end of day I just didn't think the insurance was worth it - and once you go Dinan - to maintain their coverage you have to pretty much go all Dinan (intercooler, oil cooler...)

[BzzzBom]

My dealer recommended the GIAC flash over the Dinan flash. I have had the GIAC stage 1 for about 3 months and am very pleased.

[ILMOSTRO]

My car is at the dealer right now getting new injectors. I'm running Dinan Stage 2. The only thing I have to worry about is which route to take home in the M Roadster loaner!

Seriously, I've had a turbo replaced, hpfp replaced and had the software reflashed once. No questions asked. What would have happened if I limped into the dealer with a JB piggyback?

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by michifan

Gary,
Dinan with no other mods can not, and has not ever dyno'd higher than the highest non-moded BMS or Proceed tune. Both BMS and Proceed run about 20HP higher with no other modifications.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=374508

Dinan Stage 2 produces the same 1/4 mile time as JB3 map 5 as we have seen. But Dinan has said all along that its N54 tunes produce reduced power on dynos because the dynos don't have big enough fans to keep the intake, oil and water temperatures within safe limits for full power. Dinan criticizes the piggyback tunes for not having adequate safety strategies to reduce power in high heat conditions:

If the piggy back boxes are not losing as much power as a stock or Dinan car on the dyno, you should be afraid because this means that your engine is in jeopardy as a result of these safety controls being compromised. Maybe not on purpose, but none the less compromised.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Dinan Stage 2 produces the same 1/4 mile time as JB3 map 5 as we have seen. But Dinan has said all along that its N54 tunes produce reduced power on dynos because the dynos don't have big enough fans to keep the intake, oil and water temperatures within safe limits for full power. Dinan criticizes the piggyback tunes for not having adequate safety strategies to reduce power in high heat conditions:

Gary,

Stage 2 on a Dyno with no other mods puts out 20-30 less horsepower than BMS or Proceed with no other mods. This doesn't matter whether you are running a dyno in 50 degree or 90 degree settings. There is overwhelming, repeated evidence of this.

As far as the same 1/4 mile times with less horsepower and torque than a map 5 JB3, that can only be explained by driver error. Physics (equal weight and more horsepower and torque) prevent anything else.

Look, the best reason to get a Dinan is because you don't want to mess around under the hood when you take your car into the shop. The next best reason is the piggyback warranty for the 1st 50,000 miles.

But the downside is that with a Dinan, your car will be flagged the same as leaving your JB3/Proceed in the car at service. You are unlikely to be able to get a BMW extended warranty with a Dinan tune.


As a final note, I'm the last person that would be a fanboy for any tune. I think that each of the tunes have its benefits and drawbacks. I made my decision after seriously reviewing each of the tunes, and actually discussing it with my local shop which is a Dinan dealer.

The Manager told me that he cannot recall having to cover a single warranty problem for people that go with tune alone. He said most of the problems happen with people in the upper stages and even then, they start adding on things like Meth or add products from the paint stores to up their octane. He stands behind the Dinan products, but admits that they are expensive and even the hours to install are dictated (4 hours for a FMIC vs 2 hours real time).

[michifan]

Originally Posted by BR3CK

My car is at the dealer right now getting new injectors. I'm running Dinan Stage 2. The only thing I have to worry about is which route to take home in the M Roadster loaner!

Seriously, I've had a turbo replaced, hpfp replaced and had the software reflashed once. No questions asked. What would have happened if I limped into the dealer with a JB piggyback?

The same thing that happened when you limped into the dealer with the Dinan flash.

BMW cannot treat a BMS piggyback differently than a Dinan flash. If the flash/piggyback caused the limp, the dealer would not perform the warranty work for free. But again, unless you misused your piggyback (setting it for Map 9 and throwing in some carcenogenic mixture from Lowes) - odds are that your limp mode were unrelated to the tune and at worst they can 1) remove your tune and charge you the labor - 2) tell you they won't work on your car until you pull your tune.

There are dealers that lie to customers about 'voiding' your entire warranty - but dealers lie (or are misinformed). Warranties are federally protected contracts and BMW dealers (and regional reps) know where to pick their battles. No smart dealer is going to piss off a potential return customer for a simple piggy back tune. Start adding Meth, pulling off the cats - you might have to escalate (and if goes to court explain why you are running without cats).

Fear is not realty.

[Revelate]

Originally Posted by michifan

Gary,
As far as the same 1/4 mile times with less horsepower and torque than a map 5 JB3, that can only be explained by driver error. Physics (equal weight and more horsepower and torque) prevent anything else.

That's a huge exaggeration. Tires, suspension, aerodynamic downforce and weight transfer play critical roles in vehicle performance. It's very possible that a stock 135 can't utilize the full potential of either flash and the performance results, especially in a 1/4 mile, will be nearly identical.

The short conversation is:

Want max hp? Get xx brand tune that offers it.

Want a solid product with reputable R&D? Get Dinan.

There are many, many reasons to perfer one over the other, but the confidence in expecting that your 45k+ vehicle will be taken care of by BMW and Dinan should a problem occur can't be compared, argued or dismissed.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by michifan

As far as the same 1/4 mile times with less horsepower and torque than a map 5 JB3, that can only be explained by driver error.

Haha, tell Sal his driving errors are the reason why his car is so slow. And Jjse90 must have incredible driving skills to squeeze 12.9 and the 12.8 he shows in his sig from his 20-30hp underpowered Dinan Stage 2.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365213

[james33]

I'll probably go with a JB3 at the end of the year. I looked into the Dinan and my nearest dealer is over 3 hours away. They way I read the warranty, if there is an issue and BMW points at Dinan, you have to take it to a Dinan dealer. Or if they were to reflash the ECU at my local BMW, I'd have to drive 3 hours or send my ECU in for a re-flash. Also, once your car is out of BMW warranty, Dinan only covers it's stuff for 1 year - period, with no break on the price. No thanks on all of the above. Taking the 20 minutes to remove the piggyback is much more convenient and provides more power.

Just my 2 cents and decision process.

[Revelate]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Haha, tell Sal his driving errors are the reason why his car is so slow. And Jjse90 must have incredible driving skills to squeeze 12.9 and the 12.8 he shows in his sig from his 20-30hp underpowered Dinan Stage 2.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365213

I want to know where this drag strip is. 167 degrees F and 100% humidity. Ouch.

Seriously, those two times are too close to explain any single difference in performance. A drag strip is a poor choice of venue to compare performance mods (unless 1/4 mile times are your only goal for modifying the vehicle). Too many other variables that can alter the outcome.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Revelate

Seriously, those two times are too close to explain any single difference in performance.

I don't know what you difference you mean. I showed this as an example of there not being a significant difference in power between the two tunes, which I think is the same thing you're saying.

The question was whether JB3 Map 5 is more aggressive than any Dinan tune, as someone claimed. I say Dinan Stage 2 is as aggressive as JB3 Map 5. So I'm pointing to the 12.92 shown here and the 12.8 in the guy's sig, which are roughly equal to JB3 Map 5 in this case and most others that I've seen.

[james33]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I don't know what you difference you mean. I showed this as an example of there not being a significant difference in power between the two tunes, which I think is the same thing you're saying.

The question was whether JB3 Map 5 is more aggressive than any Dinan tune, as someone claimed. I say Dinan Stage 2 is as aggressive as JB3 Map 5. So I'm pointing to the 12.92 shown here and the 12.8 in the guy's sig, which are roughly equal to JB3 Map 5 in this case and most others that I've seen.

I think the only way to know for sure based on 1/4 mile runs is to have the exact same driver run each car down the track 4-5 times each and then compare. One run by 2 different drivers may not be an accurate representation of the performance.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by Revelate

That's a huge exaggeration. Tires, suspension, aerodynamic downforce and weight transfer play critical roles in vehicle performance. It's very possible that a stock 135 can't utilize the full potential of either flash and the performance results, especially in a 1/4 mile, will be nearly identical.

The short conversation is:

Want max hp? Get xx brand tune that offers it.

Want a solid product with reputable R&D? Get Dinan.

There are many, many reasons to perfer one over the other, but the confidence in expecting that your 45k+ vehicle will be taken care of by BMW and Dinan should a problem occur can't be compared, argued or dismissed.

The point I should have made was that ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL it is impossible for an identical car with less horsepower and torque, and similar hp/tq curves to beat the higher horsepower and torque without it being driver error.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Haha, tell Sal his driving errors are the reason why his car is so slow. And Jjse90 must have incredible driving skills to squeeze 12.9 and the 12.8 he shows in his sig from his 20-30hp underpowered Dinan Stage 2.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365213

Two points.

1) If I'm not mistaken, he was running 1.4 and not the 2.0 (current mod).
2) Even if the Dinan Stage 2 = JB3 Map 5 - no other mods, my point still stands. The Dinan Stage 2, installed is $1800. JB3 is $350 pin out.

Call your local Dinan dealer. Ask them if they've ever had to cover a warranty repair caused by their tune-only (No other mods on the car). The answer will be no.

I shouldn't have dogged the Dinan tune, because I think they are a great company. I wouldn't turn down a Dinan tune, and would pay a few hundred more for it than any of the piggybacks. But I wouldn't pay close to $1500 more.

I just believe that you are paying extra money for something you'll never need. The dealer will flag your car with a Dinan tune as quickly as a pin out JB3. But by law they cannot 'void' your warranty unless they can show that the tune created whatever warranty problem you are having.

I still think its a good idea to take out the tune before you bring it into the dealer (who needs an argument unless its online?) - and if you don't want to spend 30 minutes pulling your tune, go with the flash.

End of day, the Dinan warranty is like buying the airport life insurance when you fly. It might give you some piece of mind, but you are more likely to hit the powerball than die in a plane crash - and its cheaper to play the powerball and the payout is much higher.

[GaryS]

Cool. I agree that paying for the Dinan warranty only makes sense for certain people who are particularly sensitive about hiding or removing a piggyback or other flash.

[plasar]

Michifan:

I agree with you that, on the surface, the main differentiating points to consider between Dinan and other tunes are the software-only nature of tune (some others are SW only) and the 4 yr/50K mile backstop warranty (unique to Dinan as far as I can tell).


But one also should also consider the reputation of Dinan, history, that they are a BMW-only tuner, and they have a sales network, including many BMW dealers. When you check out their web site, it is obvious that they give you a lot of clear, meaningful info about what their tune is doing. Boost and power curves by RPM, for both stock and tune, comments about cooling challenges, tapered boost at high RPM, etc. I found a lot less info at other tuner sites.

Dinan Stage 2 335i Press Release

And a big part of tuning is trust. You must trust that your tuner did proper engineering, testing, and adjustment if you want reliability and longevity, and that they didn't just "crank up the boost".

(Furthermore, I think I am correct in saying that piggybacks must provide the standard ECU software with sensor data that is within standard ranges, and therefore, must "trick" the ECU. Ex. standard ECU considers max boost 8.8 lbs. To get above 8.8 lbs, the piggyback must increase the boost past 8.8 lbs but report no more than 8.8 lbs back to the ECU. Dinan changes the ECU software max boost to 13.2 lbs. If I am wrong here, please ignore this point...)


So I must disagree that the $1,500 price difference is due to the Dinan backstop warranty coverage alone, or just "insurance". It also includes the engineering skill that Dinan employed to develop their tune and the overall quality of their product and service.


And likewise to your statements, this is in no way a knock on JB3, Procede, or others. Heck, there are many situations in which I would have gone with them instead, depending on my budget, how long I was keeping the car, if I had the energy to tinker with cables under the hood, if I was interested in choosing programs, etc. But I chose and can highly recommend Dinan S2.


Oh, and perhaps the biggest competitor in the "Dinan S2" space is BMW's own Performance Power Kit. At roughly the same price, you get a less aggressive tune, but full BMW warranty coverage.

I'm just glad there are so many tuning choices out there. Love that free market!

[michifan]

Originally Posted by plasar

Michifan:

I agree with you that, on the surface, the main differentiating points to consider between Dinan and other tunes are the software-only nature of tune (some others are SW only) and the 4 yr/50K mile backstop warranty (unique to Dinan as far as I can tell).


But one also should also consider the reputation of Dinan, history, that they are a BMW-only tuner, and they have a sales network, including many BMW dealers. When you check out their web site, it is obvious that they give you a lot of clear, meaningful info about what their tune is doing. Boost and power curves by RPM, for both stock and tune, comments about cooling challenges, tapered boost at high RPM, etc. I found a lot less info at other tuner sites.

Dinan Stage 2 335i Press Release

And a big part of tuning is trust. You must trust that your tuner did proper engineering, testing, and adjustment if you want reliability and longevity, and that they didn't just "crank up the boost".

(Furthermore, I think I am correct in saying that piggybacks must provide the standard ECU software with sensor data that is within standard ranges, and therefore, must "trick" the ECU. Ex. standard ECU considers max boost 8.8 lbs. To get above 8.8 lbs, the piggyback must increase the boost past 8.8 lbs but report no more than 8.8 lbs back to the ECU. Dinan changes the ECU software max boost to 13.2 lbs. If I am wrong here, please ignore this point...)


So I must disagree that the $1,500 price difference is due to the Dinan backstop warranty coverage alone, or just "insurance". It also includes the engineering skill that Dinan employed to develop their tune and the overall quality of their product and service.


And likewise to your statements, this is in no way a knock on JB3, Procede, or others. Heck, there are many situations in which I would have gone with them instead, depending on my budget, how long I was keeping the car, if I had the energy to tinker with cables under the hood, if I was interested in choosing programs, etc. But I chose and can highly recommend Dinan S2.


Oh, and perhaps the biggest competitor in the "Dinan S2" space is BMW's own Performance Power Kit. At roughly the same price, you get a less aggressive tune, but full BMW warranty coverage.

I'm just glad there are so many tuning choices out there. Love that free market!

Given Dinan's revenue stream, it is inconceivable that the R&D associated with their tunes is anywhere near 10% of revenue. Just based on size of the organization, BMS and Proceed probably spend more dollars of R&D to total sales as a percentage than Dinan - economies of scale and all. No argument that Dinan probably spends more total dollars.

As far as trust - you hit the nail on the head with that comment. If you don't trust BMS or Proceed, it wouldn't matter if they gave their tunes away. Frankly when it comes to this kind of engine modification, you either trust the vendor or you don't. Price isn't an issue.

However, I read somewhere on E90 that BMS is the most popular tune, mores than Dinan, Proceed and the rest. I cannot vouch for that, but if true, that along with a pretty high satisfaction on virtually every site I've seen would vouch for BMS.

Before I bought BMS, I was ready to go with Dinan. I never heard of BMS until I saw this site. I did as much research as possible, including talking with the local Dinan dealer who happens to be an independent BMW mechanic (Dinan isn't dealer affiliated here).

He stands behind Dinan and has zero negative to say. He knows they are expensive, but he also knows that for the money there are a whole bunch of other options that perform without concern. He has never had to backstop a Dinan tune alone (ie no other mods on the car).

If you are leasing a car, Dinan makes no sense. You cannot CPO a vehicle with Dinan and you cannot take it with you or sell it. If you plan to own the car and don't want to ever open your hood, Dinan is a fine option.

[Revelate]

Originally Posted by michifan

The point I should have made was that ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL it is impossible for an identical car with less horsepower and torque, and similar hp/tq curves to beat the higher horsepower and torque without it being driver error.

That's a logical statement. And my point, borrowed from the economics world, was that there's a law of diminishing returns.

Example: A 600hp 135 with stock suspension and RFT tires will not be 2 times faster than a 300hp 135 with an identical setup.

An additional 20-30hp in a car that can't take advantage of the extra power is not going to be proportionately faster than it's lesser powered rival.

For real world performance in cars with mild mods, there's very little difference in actual performance. Buy what makes you happy.

[135iCab]

Well, an update...I no longer have Dinan Stage 2 on my car. I now have a JB3 2.0.

I was initially not very excited by the Dinan gains, but the final straw for me was when I took the car to the track. The car would lose power after just 3 or 4 laps for a few corners and then it'd come back online (no CEL). I asked Dinan to check my car and they told me that a fault code was generated from the software that detects aggressive driving and backs off the power to quote "protect the brakes"!! Dinan gave me a refund.

It seems to me that Dinan is really protecting their warranty liability as previously I did 2 hours at the track in 20-minute sessions while I was stock and there was never any power loss like this. If anything, oil temps were lower when the Dinan software shut down my power.

I understand and support anyone going the Dinan route as I initially chose it myself. But, I would say its a probably a moderate tune and I doubt anyone taking their car to a road circuit will be impressed, if they have the same experience I've had. But, that's just my experience for what it's worth.

I'm looking forward to taking my car back to the dyno once again and to Eurofest on Sunday! Therefore, I'll probably post JB3 v Dinan2 v Stock dyno results soon. Curious? I am!!