[E90Fleet]

It wont start 1 September, but 4 September

EDIT: Not shure about USA model

[Greeney]

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

It wont start 1 September, but 4 September

Awesome!! I wonder if I can work somthing out with the dealer... my car is off lease end of August...

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by Greeney

Awesome!! I wonder if I can work somthing out with the dealer... my car is off lease end of August...

Please note my EDIT. My info still doesnt confirm USA model production

[luxman999]

I actually don't feel sorry for them, and here's why. There are several categories of 330 owners. Some bought the car in 2005. Hence, they have enjoyed a great car for several months now, if not a year. Furthermore, they had a car with a new bodystyle before anybody else. You have to be willing to pay for that.

Another category of 330 owners bought their car recently, but got some great deals on them. They knew the 335 was coming out, but were unwilling/unable to spend extra for it, even if the price increase is marginal, or were unwilling/unable to to wait for it. We've seen 500 over invoice pretty regularly. No matter what the price of the 335 sedan is, you won't be seeing 500 over invoice for a couple of months at least, unless you have a relationship with the dealer (which first time buyers do not have).

Finally, the last category of 330 owners bought their car without performing any research whatsoever, and had no idea that a 335 sedan was in the works. This category of people would have waited for a 335 sedan, would have been willing to shell out extra, but did not bother to do the research. I have no sympathy here; sorry. Seems harsh, but if you are rash enough to buy a $40K car without fully researching it, then you should not complain if you think you are getting "screwed over" in a few months.

Now, in some cases, there was no way that someone could have known that a replacement was in the works. For instance, a member of this board bought an e46 sedan a few years ago, and a few months later, found that BMW replaced the 323 with the 325 for a minimal price increase.

However, people buying this time round, should have read these boards, and would have seen the e46 precedent, and realized that BMW is quite capable of replacing the e90 330 sedan after only 18 months of production.

I hear your points.

However I bet more than 90% of recent 330i buyers didn't know anything about the 335i sedan coming out this fall. 335i coupe maybe but NOT 4 door 335i this fall! I'm regular visitor to this forum and considered myself very well informed about the BMW, but even I only found this out this week....Still not 100% convinced about 335i sedan though.

So unless they got super deal like you are saying, they WILL be pissed to see 335i on the road this fall at little price increase. Not just because 335i will be much faster than 330i (recent test showed 335i is almost as fast as 650i or 550i), but it will seriously reduce the resale value of current 330i.

I see some current 330i owners already trying to justify their choice as "Oh, I'm enjoying my car". OK, whatever. Even if you bought your 330i as soon as it came out last year, it has been only about a year! If seeing a much better version of your car at little price increase in a year doesn't bother you, I don't know what would. Whether you admit or not, you are officially screwed by BMW.

Of course, they can sell their 330i and buy 335i. But replacing a car in less than 2 years is like throwing your money away and one of the worst financial move you can make.

The 335i sedan would almost perfect for my taste....only wish it has the super DSG tranny from Audi/VW. Man, I test drove Jetta GLI with DSG and I almost bought it just for the tranny. There is no way that car has only 200hp engine, felt more like 230 or more. Some recent test showed stock GLI put down 200hp to the wheel, so it must have 230 or so. Different subject...sorry.

[wyrm11]

Originally Posted by luxman999

So unless they got super deal like you are saying, they WILL be pissed to see 335i on the road this fall at little price increase. Not just because 335i will be much faster than 330i (recent test showed 335i is almost as fast as 650i or 550i), but it will seriously reduce the resale value of current 330i.

I see some current 330i owners already trying to justify their choice as "Oh, I'm enjoying my car". OK, whatever. Even if you bought your 330i as soon as it came out last year, it has been only about a year! If seeing a much better version of your car at little price increase in a year doesn't bother you, I don't know what would. Whether you admit or not, you are officially screwed by BMW.

I hear what you're saying and I think you're right. I think a lot of 330 owners will, at the very least, be disappointed if/when the 335i sedan comes out. Having said that, that's just the reality of technology and innovation. You won't always have the best thing regardless of what it is unless you have absurd amounts of money.

Also, this topic has been discussed over and over for months, and according to others on this board, BMW has done this kind of thing in the past, with a new engine coming out only a year or two after the previous model. So it's not like this is a completely unheard of thing and clearly it hasn't hurt BMW sales in the past.

BMW had to step up with the 335 to answer growing competition from the likes of Lexus and Infiniti. 300+hp sport sedans are increasingly common and BMW needed an answer to maintain its position at the top.

Some people might complain, but the bottom line is that part of the reason BMW is so great is because they're constantly innovating and offering the best products. I would have been disappointed in BMW if they DIDN'T release the 335.

[luxman999]

I hear what you're saying and I think you're right. I think a lot of 330 owners will, at the very least, be disappointed if/when the 335i sedan comes out. Having said that, that's just the reality of technology and innovation. You won't always have the best thing regardless of what it is unless you have absurd amounts of money.

Also, this topic has been discussed over and over for months, and according to others on this board, BMW has done this kind of thing in the past, with a new engine coming out only a year or two after the previous model. So it's not like this is a completely unheard of thing and clearly it hasn't hurt BMW sales in the past.

BMW had to step up with the 335 to answer growing competition from the likes of Lexus and Infiniti. 300+hp sport sedans are increasingly common and BMW needed an answer to maintain its position at the top.

Some people might complain, but the bottom line is that part of the reason BMW is so great is because they're constantly innovating and offering the best products. I would have been disappointed in BMW if they DIDN'T release the 335.

I agree. BMW has little choice but replace 330i with 335i ASAP to compete against Lexus IS350 and new Infiniti G35, both with more than 300hp. With current 330i, BMW CANNOT beat these fine sport sedans hand down. 330i may still win the handling category but will be smoked by others. But with 300hp 335i sedan, the BMW will be again undisputed champion in the segment.

Without "help" from IS350 and G35, BMW would NEVER replaced 330i with 335i so soon. The new over-300hp G35 sedan will be one fast sedan too. Can't wait to test them both. It's a good time for buyers.

[WA_Bimmer]

I don't necessarily agree with the weight people are putting on the horsepower factor for BMW's strategy. It may be one consideration amongst many, but look at the e46 model during the years 2003 to 2005. Those models still sold well even though Infiniti and Lexus had better horsepower under the hood. Plus, people were willing to pay a premium over the competitors. If horsepower was a determining factor, I think you would have seen either sales decline on the e46 models or pricing wouldn't have had such a premium.

In any case, we should enjoy whatever BMW we get. There are many other things to worry about in life than having the "best" car. Lots of people may drive the most beefed up, expensive cars, but have to always worry about the next month's mortgage, while others may drive Kia's but live very comfortably within their means in a nice place.

[Daneel]

Originally Posted by luxman999

I hear your points.

However I bet more than 90% of recent 330i buyers didn't know anything about the 335i sedan coming out this fall. 335i coupe maybe but NOT 4 door 335i this fall! I'm regular visitor to this forum and considered myself very well informed about the BMW, but even I only found this out this week....Still not 100% convinced about 335i sedan though.

Crap, I just wrote out a huge ass reply and hten accidently hit the "back" button on my mouse (the mouse has extra buttons for going back and forward while web browsing).

Anyways, so I was saying that I feel bad for owners who feel like they got "screwed". But I don't feel too much pity because these people are still driving one of the finest sports sedans on the market.

It was common knowledge that the coupes would be getting a new engine. Given that the coupes and sedans eventually get the same engine lineup, it was not much of a leap to imagine that the sedans would eventually get the new engines.

If you bought your 330 while knowing abotu the turbo engine in development, then you must have had some valid reasons for buying the 330; price considerations, need for a car asap, whatever.

For instance, I was considering buying an 06 330 sedan in june, just before the orders shut down, so that I could get a good deal on it, evne though the turbo coupe info has been out for months now (I don't have strong preferences either way when it comes to the coupe or the sedan). However, I think I'll wait

Another example: consider people who have ordered the 335 coupe without even driving it. They want to be the first on the block/city/state to own the 335 coupe. Never mind the speculation of a 335 si (ZHP type thingie?) for '08. Personally, the 335 will be more than enough power for me, and I don't want to spend extra for the si. But some of the people buying a 335 right now, without even knowing the price can probably afford to pick up the speculated si model next year. In a year, they might feel that BMW screwed them over as well. Well, you makes your choice and takes your chances.

Another argument that some people make is that there will always be the next best thing.

This is true to some extent. What this argument fails to address is that yes, there will be marginal improvements over the years, but the introduction of the turbo engine is a MAJOR improvement.

For instance, the turbo comes out this year. Next year or the year after, the ZHP comes out; in my mind, that's a marginal improvement. 2 years later the mid-generation facelift happens. Thats a marginal improvement. 2-3 years later, the next generation fo the 3 series comes out. That's a major improvement.

It is worth waiting for a major improvement if one is expected in the near future (maybe a year or so). It is probably not worth waiting for a minor improvement if the minor improvement is more than a year away.

So for example, I would wait for a november software upgrade. I would not wait for an 2007 may software upgrade. But I *would* wait for a 2007 engine upgrade (if one was happening and I wanted it).

Ok, I've rambled enough, but hopefully, this made my views clearer. My last post was probably a little harsh on current 330 owners and I apologize for that.

[richlux]

As a future 330i owner (it's on order), the only way a 335i will bother me at all will be if it costs around the same price as a 330i. If the pricing rumors that put it at around $40K are true and the fact that there will only be a 328i and 335i, then I will be very glad that I got my 330i before they stopped making them. I certainly wouldn't want the 328i (less HP and Torque, which is why I didn't get the 325i) and the 335i will be more than I want to/can spend. For me, the 330i was at a perfect price point for me. Would I want more performance? Of course, but not if it's gonna cost me $3.5 Grand. And I certainly wouldn't want less (e.g. 328i)

Rich

[scubajag]

I took ED on my E-90 325i last year, pretty basic car, but still plenty of power. Folks, I drove on the autobahn and I could still leave many of BMW's competitors in the dust. The point is, why should I be upset that BMW will probably be making a 328i sedan late this year. The engine is basically the same as the 325 will a bit more torque. There will be a price increase, even for ED. So, lets not go crazy about buying one car, and another model comes out later. BMW did not guarantee to anyone that advances would not be made. The E-93 will start production in the Spring of 2007. Won't this hardtop convertible make the ragtops obsolete. That's just the way business works. As Donald Trump says, its not personal, its just business.

[fragra]

Originally Posted by Greeney

Awesome!! I wonder if I can work somthing out with the dealer... my car is off lease end of August...

Shouldn't be a problem. My lease comes to term early August and my CA suggested I wait to see what Sept brings (hopefully a RWD Touring ). BMWFS will extend your lease until you take delivery (up to 6 months).

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by luxman999

Without "help" from IS350 and G35, BMW would NEVER replaced 330i with 335i so soon. The new over-300hp G35 sedan will be one fast sedan too. Can't wait to test them both. It's a good time for buyers.

I ought to add that I think that the 335i was already planned for a quick roll out years ago - right about the time the G35 started rolling out and well before much was even known about the IS350. There's a lot of evidence to support this:

1.) The 335i is designed to complement the rest of the E90 lineup in Europe and many other markets. No doubt, then, that this model was slated to go along with the E90 from the time the E90 was put into serious development, but the new engine placed a one model year delay on release.

2.) It's becoming increasingly clear that the N52 engine found in the current E90 was a stop-gap from the very beginning. Why? The quick emergence of the biturbo N54 (supplanting the N/A variants as the most powerful model), for one, but more importantly the quick introduction of the HPI/direct injection N53 (which does make use of several improvements first shown on the N52, sans the Valvetronic), which is also slated to join the N54 in LIEU OF the N52 in several markets THIS fall.

3.) Stop-gap N52 theory in mind: what does all of this mean for the US market? BMW has always had to plan differently for the US market, which presents its own set of fairly unique challenges. For one, unlike the rest of the world, fuel in the US is relatively cheap, as are cars due to the fact that there is no federal sales tax. Power is also heavily in demand for these reasons and others - the end result is that US consumers have more buying power in the automotive industry than virtually any other market in the world, resulting in much more opportunity (and competition) in the market segment that the most powerful 3 series variants fall into. The G35 and IS350 are sold and heavily marketed in the US, but not Europe or even many Asian markets (where the most powerful Lexus might be the IS250, for example). BMW's biggest competitors in Europe (and several of the aforementioned Asian markets) are Audi and MB, whose most powerful entry level sport sedans currently produce around 250-270 hp (and what does the 330 produce? ).

BMW has had to adopt a different approach for the US market than the rest of the world, and this has already been readily apparent for years if not decades. Knowing the perfect suitability of the already-in-development N54 as a high volume engine for the US market, and given the tight market/price spacing and high level of competition here, I do suspect that BMW planned in advance to consolidate the 325 and 330 into a single model (conveniently dubbed 328) and sell the 335 as the top model for only a bit more than its predecessor...and as soon as the 335 was ready to go.

4.) BMW Ag documents leaked out some while ago (and dated all the way back to the 2003) showing an engine release time table (along with some rough specs) which has subsequently proven to be remarkably accurate. On this now three-year-old document, the N54 and N53 alike were slated for Fall 06' SOP.

Note that I'm not trying to discount the idea that competition "forced" these changes (quite the contrary - I agree entirely with the quoted post above), just trying to throw out my theory for why it's all happening just a single model year after the release of the E90 in current guise - it's not an accident or a desperate response.

I think the release of the G35 is really what prompted BMW to adopt the US strategy that they appear to be taking...the IS350 came really late to the party, and Lexus is traditionally slow at getting new models out and as a result has rarely been a class leader in power (and when they are, they aren't for long). Bottom line is that the consumer always wins when competition is stiff. I'm quite glad that Infiniti and Lexus decided to step up to the plate in such a big way.

[chonko]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

I ought to add that I think that the 335i was already planned for a quick roll out years ago - right about the time the G35 started rolling out and well before much was even known about the IS350. There's a lot of evidence to support this:

1.) The 335i is designed to complement the rest of the E90 lineup in Europe and many other markets. No doubt, then, that this model was slated to go along with the E90 from the time the E90 was put into serious development, but the new engine placed a one model year delay on release.

2.) It's becoming increasingly clear that the N52 engine found in the current E90 was a stop-gap from the very beginning. Why? The quick emergence of the biturbo N54 (supplanting the N/A variants as the most powerful model), for one, but more importantly the quick introduction of the HPI/direct injection N53 (which does make use of several improvements first shown on the N52, sans the Valvetronic), which is also slated to join the N54 in LIEU OF the N52 in several markets THIS fall.

3.) Stop-gap N52 theory in mind: what does all of this mean for the US market? BMW has always had to plan differently for the US market, which presents its own set of fairly unique challenges. For one, unlike the rest of the world, fuel in the US is relatively cheap, as are cars due to the fact that there is no federal sales tax. Power is also heavily in demand for these reasons and others - the end result is that US consumers have more buying power in the automotive industry than virtually any other market in the world, resulting in much more opportunity (and competition) in the market segment that the most powerful 3 series variants fall into. The G35 and IS350 are sold and heavily marketed in the US, but not Europe or even many Asian markets (where the most powerful Lexus might be the IS250, for example). BMW's biggest competitors in Europe (and several of the aforementioned Asian markets) are Audi and MB, whose most powerful entry level sport sedans currently produce around 250-270 hp (and what does the 330 produce? ).

BMW has had to adopt a different approach for the US market than the rest of the world, and this has already been readily apparent for years if not decades. Knowing the perfect suitability of the already-in-development N54 as a high volume engine for the US market, and given the tight market/price spacing and high level of competition here, I do suspect that BMW planned in advance to consolidate the 325 and 330 into a single model (conveniently dubbed 328) and sell the 335 as the top model for only a bit more than its predecessor...and as soon as the 335 was ready to go.

4.) BMW Ag documents leaked out some while ago (and dated all the way back to the 2003) showing an engine release time table (along with some rough specs) which has subsequently proven to be remarkably accurate. On this now three-year-old document, the N54 and N53 alike were slated for Fall 06' SOP.

Note that I'm not trying to discount the idea that competition "forced" these changes (quite the contrary - I agree entirely with the quoted post above), just trying to throw out my theory for why it's all happening just a single model year after the release of the E90 in current guise - it's not an accident or a desperate response.

I think the release of the G35 is really what prompted BMW to adopt the US strategy that they appear to be taking...the IS350 came really late to the party, and Lexus is traditionally slow at getting new models out and as a result has rarely been a class leader in power (and when they are, they aren't for long). Bottom line is that the consumer always wins when competition is stiff. I'm quite glad that Infiniti and Lexus decided to step up to the plate in such a big way.

Precisely said. I was reflecting the other day about car adverts in the US:it's usually the 300HP xxxx sedan, or the xxxx sedan with 350 HP. Why are most car ads in the US quoting HP numbers- it's because that is what the average consumer here understands, and to most people it is a sellling point.
Bearing this in mind, one can understand the strategy of BMW to go the 328i/335i line up.
In Europe which is the home market for BMW and others, the consumer looks at fuel efficiency and CO2 emissions, driving dynamics etc.

[akhbhaat]

I don't think 330 owners are in a particularly disadvantageous position. Sure, there will be a small, short term resale hit, but this alleviates itself over the following two or three years. Current 330 owners will be in a good position to trade into the facelifted E90 in a few years down the road, or even an M3.

The point is, these products exist in a constant state of evolution. Whichever model you buy will invariably be replaced, changed, or upgraded within a relatively short period of time - regardless of which model you buy or when you buy it. There's no sense in sitting around waiting for the next best thing (be prepared to wait!) or regretting the decision to buy.

[Marcus Frost]

This is a great discussion, but what I think a lot of BMW enthusiasts (and possibly even some of the powers-that-be at BMW) may not realize is what a significant new group of enthusiasts the N54 will appeal to - basically the tuner crowd. Don't get me wrong, tuning BMWs is nothing new, but as an ex-E46 M3 owner - getting significant hp out of BMWs traditional engines has involved significant and expensive packages that most people simply are not willing to go through with. With factory turbocharging the whole playing field has changed. Take my S4, do you know how large of a portion of that community simply has not jumped into the newer V8 versions because of the lack of factory turbocharging and the fact that a simple remapped B5 chassis ('99-'02) S4 can out run the new S4? In addition, the abundance of extremely moderately priced turbo upgrade kits can put the S4 well into supercar territory. That's the beauty of factory turbocharging.

Bottom line is that the N54 is why I'm here. It's the #1 reason without question why I'm considering a 335. I will not be alone, not even close. Right now, relatively few people know about this car and the N54, but when word starts getting out, I'm telling you all - it's going to be a huge hit - AND - M3 owners are going to have something to be afraid of...

-m

[foofighter]

and so will the fighting with the various tuner camps and the posts about how the dealer wont work on my moddied turbo motor and so on and so on...with all good things there will come the bad.

[chazmtb]

Although I might be a little PO if there is a 335 in 07, I was ready for the eventual replacement of the 330. That's why I just ordered the car on a lease. What I really would be pissed off at was them giving 2grand dealer incentive. My order won't be here until mid to the end of July. BMW takes a 1 month break in August. From what I understand, BMW might give the incentive to clear out the remaining cars in August. By then I wouldn't be able to get the exact car that I want and must chose from a very limited supply or wait until October/November and pay MSRP on a 328 or 335. In three years, l'm hoping that my income will increase enough for an M3.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Marcus Frost

This is a great discussion, but what I think a lot of BMW enthusiasts (and possibly even some of the powers-that-be at BMW) may not realize is what a significant new group of enthusiasts the N54 will appeal to - basically the tuner crowd. Don't get me wrong, tuning BMWs is nothing new, but as an ex-E46 M3 owner - getting significant hp out of BMWs traditional engines has involved significant and expensive packages that most people simply are not willing to go through with. With factory turbocharging the whole playing field has changed. Take my S4, do you know how large of a portion of that community simply has not jumped into the newer V8 versions because of the lack of factory turbocharging and the fact that a simple remapped B5 chassis ('99-'02) S4 can out run the new S4? In addition, the abundance of extremely moderately priced turbo upgrade kits can put the S4 well into supercar territory. That's the beauty of factory turbocharging.

Bottom line is that the N54 is why I'm here. It's the #1 reason without question why I'm considering a 335. I will not be alone, not even close. Right now, relatively few people know about this car and the N54, but when word starts getting out, I'm telling you all - it's going to be a huge hit - AND - M3 owners are going to have something to be afraid of...

-m

I would guess the large onslaught of turbo tuners happen in 3+ years when there are lease returns and used vehicles available for purchase at a cheaper than new prices (& the warranties are expired). How many people are willing to void BMWs great warranty (& possibly some maintenance) by modding? I’m sure the 335 warranty will include some very stiff modding addendums to keep BMW from fixing or maintaining aftermarket mods.

I agree the 335 will be a sought after vehicle and many tuners will want the vehicle. But wont most tuners look for slightly used 335s when they become available?

[Marcus Frost]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

I would guess the large onslaught of turbo tuners happen in 3+ years when there are lease returns and used vehicles available for purchase at a cheaper than new prices (& the warranties are expired). How many people are willing to void BMWs great warranty (& possibly some maintenance) by modding? I’m sure the 335 warranty will include some very stiff modding addendums to keep BMW from fixing or maintaining aftermarket mods.

I agree the 335 will be a sought after vehicle and many tuners will want the vehicle. But wont most tuners look for slightly used 335s when they become available?

My friend you do not give tuner's enough credit! In the Audi world tuners have developed re-mapping techniques that can be set back to stock and are undetectable by dealers! You go in for service and it's like you have a stock ECU'd car. Sure, the big 500hp+ mods may not be as easy, but with a nice exhaust system (which is not something that will void your warranty, unless you start messing with O2 sensors and catalytic converters) and a well done chip, plus maybe a more efficient intercooler, you will see very pleasant gains. Just look at the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO and Subaru WRX crowd - while they are without question a different demographic, the offerings from tuners on those cars are huge!

Everyone mods, M3 guys, 325 guys, everyone. This is nothing new. The difference will be whereas the M3 guys pick up 5hp from a Dinan ECU, the 335 guys could pick up 50hp . That's where the beauty lies!

-m

[Greeney]

Originally Posted by fragra

Shouldn't be a problem. My lease comes to term early August and my CA suggested I wait to see what Sept brings (hopefully a RWD Touring ). BMWFS will extend your lease until you take delivery (up to 6 months).

Too bad I drive an Infiniti

[Brett]

Originally Posted by Dukenole

So a car with 4 doors will be priced less that a car with two doors? Can you explain the logic behind that, sir.

Supply / Demand. And the coupes have more features standard.

This whole thing about pricing is ridiculous. 335 Coupe will not start for more than $40k.

Likewise, the price increase from 325 to 328 Sedan will not be $2,000. If you want a point of reference look at the 323-->325.

Engine Models have lasted shorter than 18 months in the past. For example, Lexus had an ES250 at initial launch and changed that within 12 months. So an early engine change is not unheard of...

-Brett

[gohawks23]

Originally Posted by Brett

Supply / Demand. And the coupes have more features standard.

This whole thing about pricing is ridiculous. 335 Coupe will not start for more than $40k.

Likewise, the price increase from 325 to 328 Sedan will not be $2,000. If you want a point of reference look at the 323-->325.

Engine Models have lasted shorter than 18 months in the past. For example, Lexus had an ES250 at initial launch and changed that within 12 months. So an early engine change is not unheard of...

-Brett

335 sedan will be around $38-39K and the coupe will be around $39-40K.