Stainless steel brake lines

[JB007]

Stainless brake lines, like the Goodridge lines, will firm up the brake pedal feel as the stock rubber hoses expands under braking conditions. The one thing they won't do is improve braking power.

Under severe track conditions, stock rubber hoses will get hot and further expand under heavy breaking. This is where SS lines becomes really useful. They prevent a spongy pedal as brake fluid gets hot.

This is all they do.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by JB007

Stainless brake lines, like the Goodridge lines, will firm up the brake pedal feel as the stock rubber hoses expands under braking conditions. The one thing they won't do is improve braking power.

Under severe track conditions, stock rubber hoses will get hot and further expand under heavy breaking. This is where SS lines becomes really useful. They prevent a spongy pedal as brake fluid gets hot.

This is all they do.

I'm really not trying to start an argument but do you have any evidence of rubber brake lines expanding? Do you have experience on track of a soft brake pedal due to rubber lines expanding?

I will gladly eat my words if there is proof but I'll repost my question from earlier in this thread:

Why would BMW (or any other manufacturer) design a car that has brake lines that expand under max system pressure and/or hard braking conditions?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by hoki06

I'm really not trying to start an argument but do you have any evidence of rubber brake lines expanding? Do you have experience on track of a soft brake pedal due to rubber lines expanding?

I will gladly eat my words if there is proof but I'll repost my question from earlier in this thread:

Why would BMW (or any other manufacturer) design a car that has brake lines that expand under max system pressure and/or hard braking conditions?

Not to mention, even if that flex does exist, firming it up there will just transfer it to the next weakest point(eg firewall/master cylinder mount).

[Solo_M_Tech]

I think it's a marketing scam. Maybe a 60's muscle car could benefit from modern brake hoses, but most modern brake hoses are Kevlar lined and reinforced. I know my 79 z28 did a lot better with a willwood master cylinder and brake hoses. A lot of full race built cars have firewall/master cylinder braces as that is a week point on many cars.

[pj.rodriguez]

So based on what everyone is saying, stainless lines will just cause strain on other components of the brake fluid system and potentially cause a failure at different points rather than at the lines themselves?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by JB007

Stainless brake lines, like the Goodridge lines, will firm up the brake pedal feel as the stock rubber hoses expands under braking conditions. The one thing they won't do is improve braking power.

Under severe track conditions, stock rubber hoses will get hot and further expand under heavy breaking. This is where SS lines becomes really useful. They prevent a spongy pedal as brake fluid gets hot.

This is all they do.

Once again, I've never had fear or concern that my car was going to go flying into a beach due to my rubber hoses "expanding"

I've tracked my car under 85+ Ambient Temps, and assuming 100 degree track temps. I never had loss of pedal travel going from 140 mph to 70

Originally Posted by hoki06

I'm really not trying to start an argument but do you have any evidence of rubber brake lines expanding? Do you have experience on track of a soft brake pedal due to rubber lines expanding?

I will gladly eat my words if there is proof but I'll repost my question from earlier in this thread:

Why would BMW (or any other manufacturer) design a car that has brake lines that expand under max system pressure and/or hard braking conditions?

+1

Originally Posted by pj.rodriguez

So based on what everyone is saying, stainless lines will just cause strain on other components of the brake fluid system and potentially cause a failure at different points rather than at the lines themselves?

Most problems with a braking system is when someone installs SS lines (or similar) and notices a decrease in braking performance.

Typically, a good rule of thumb to use is....if you don't know what SS lines (or any other "modification") does to the car to benefit you, then you don't need it.

Use the money towards driver education, IMO

[JB007]

Track experience indeed. A few tracks around here are harsh on brakes.
Got my brake discs to glow red on many occasions.

I was running DBA T3 brake disc, and DTC60 pads, and used racing brake fluid.

All was working perfectly and could sustain the abuse, but the hoses were getting too hot causing too much expansion, symtom was that the brake pedal was getting really spongy and was travelling way down making Heel-toe shifts a bit more difficult.

Problem solved after swapping the OEM lines for goodridge lines.
This was for a Mazdaspeed 3, fully tuned and pushed to its limits.

My background: I attended road racing schools, and got certified for Road Racing. I never raced (too bloody expensive), but Lapped with racing clubs with the advanced/racer group, where we unoficially raced each others at times

SS lines for street use is a waste, unless a slight change in pedal feel is Really important to you.

Stock BMW cars are not intended to be used for racing.

Originally Posted by hoki06

I'm really not trying to start an argument but do you have any evidence of rubber brake lines expanding? Do you have experience on track of a soft brake pedal due to rubber lines expanding?

I will gladly eat my words if there is proof but I'll repost my question from earlier in this thread:

Why would BMW (or any other manufacturer) design a car that has brake lines that expand under max system pressure and/or hard braking conditions?

[Kgolf31]

Hate to say it....but a Mazda experience doesn't transfer over to a potential BMW one.

[JB007]

Yes and no.
About all cars in the racing group had upgraded brake lines, except for the GT3s, lambos and Ferraris.


Many had BBKs, Which comes with new lines, including many BMWs.

I'm not saying you need them for track, but it is one component of the whole braking system to not forget about. If you don't need new lines now, after a while, if you regularly track the car hard, you Will need to replace them anyway.

I have seen cars busting brake lines, rotors going in flame, and coolant hoses busting and spreading coolant over the whole track (seen a few Porsche doing this), and wheel bearing failing due to heat produced by racing pads (STIs).

Whether you decide to upgrade or not, i don't care. But whatever you do, don't buy cheap eBay lines or any other cheap brake components.

As for the 135, the stock setup (oem pads and oem fluid) will fade well before you get your hoses too hot. But if you run racing pad compound, be careful. They produce heat well above what the OEM setup can handle.

There are reports here of cracked pistons on the 135i after track days.

At last, no matter how fast you can go, if you can't stop, the car will see the wall!

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Hate to say it....but a Mazda experience doesn't transfer over to a potential BMW one.

[Blacksport]

Originally Posted by JB007

There are reports here of cracked pistons on the 135i after track days.

Actually, what was cracking was the ceramic buttons that sit between the caliper pistons and the back of the pads.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by JB007

Track experience indeed. A few tracks around here are harsh on brakes.
Got my brake discs to glow red on many occasions.

I was running DBA T3 brake disc, and DTC60 pads, and used racing brake fluid.

All was working perfectly and could sustain the abuse, but the hoses were getting too hot causing too much expansion, symtom was that the brake pedal was getting really spongy and was travelling way down making Heel-toe shifts a bit more difficult.

Problem solved after swapping the OEM lines for goodridge lines.
This was for a Mazdaspeed 3, fully tuned and pushed to its limits.

My background: I attended road racing schools, and got certified for Road Racing. I never raced (too bloody expensive), but Lapped with racing clubs with the advanced/racer group, where we unoficially raced each others at times

SS lines for street use is a waste, unless a slight change in pedal feel is Really important to you.

Stock BMW cars are not intended to be used for racing.

I guess this is an agree to disagree case. I would still argue that you were approaching the limits of the fluid rather than expanding the brake lines. While rubber, they are still internally fiber reinforced (maybe even some kevlar in there).

Did you have any type of cooling ducts directed at the rotor to aid in keeping temps down?

If you're driving/braking hard enough to make your rotors glow, you need some sort of ducting for cooling IMO. Even with race fluid you can still reach the boiling point if you have glowing rotors and no added cooling.

[HP Autosport]

There is a reason why BBKs come with SS brake lines. They are relatively inexpensive and will help with pedal feel.

-Mike

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

There is a reason why BBKs come with SS brake lines. They are relatively inexpensive and will help with pedal feel.

-Mike

BBKs come with SS lines because stock lines aren't the correct length and/or don't have the same fittings. SS lines are easy to customize for your particular application which is another reason they are widely used for racing applications.

I've never said SS lines are a bad thing. If manufactured properly with quality components, they will perform well as proven by their use in racing, airplanes, ect. However, I stand by my opinion that they do not improve pedal feel in our application.

Is it worth $100? That depends on who you ask obviously.

[Pyrat 2]

Interesting that after a thread length of about 10 days there is very clearly a divide. There are those that own SS lines and also a very well respected vendor (hpashop) that say that they improve the feel. Then there are those that don't own them who say that it doesn't improve the feel.

hmmm. Keep it going.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by hoki06

BBKs come with SS lines because stock lines aren't the correct length and/or don't have the same fittings. SS lines are easy to customize for your particular application which is another reason they are widely used for racing applications.

I've never said SS lines are a bad thing. If manufactured properly with quality components, they will perform well as proven by their use in racing, airplanes, ect. However, I stand by my opinion that they do not improve pedal feel in our application.

Is it worth $100? That depends on who you ask obviously.

Remember they also provide abrasion/cut protection from road debris and can withstand much higher temperatures that are found in the wheel wells of many track/race cars that may cause the rubber hoses to melt.

In addition, the flexible hoses used in braking systems are permeable to water and in time, water can find its way into the system through the hoses, and seriously affect the brake fluid's performance(by lowering its boiling temperature, but that is another topic).

Harold

[JTB]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

Interesting that after a thread length of about 10 days there is very clearly a divide. There are those that own SS lines and also a very well respected vendor (hpashop) that say that they improve the feel. Then there are those that don't own them who say that it doesn't improve the feel.

hmmm. Keep it going.

And then there are those who do own them and claim they can feel the difference because they really want to believe in the mod they have done - completely without bias of course...

The problem with feel is that it is completely subjective - not to mention it is always combined with multiple variables (pad and fluid changes).

On a street car I will stay stock - questionable benefit and not worth the money. If you need a custom length then stainless is an obvious choice.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

Interesting that after a thread length of about 10 days there is very clearly a divide. There are those that own SS lines and also a very well respected vendor (hpashop) that say that they improve the feel. Then there are those that don't own them who say that it doesn't improve the feel.

hmmm. Keep it going.

For the record I installed stainless brake lines on my wrx and it made no difference in brake "feel". I know it's not a bmw, but after spending 250 bucks on my wrx and no perceivable benefit I won't be upgrading my 1er.

[Black Prinz]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Remember they also provide abrasion/cut protection from road debris and can withstand much higher temperatures that are found in the wheel wells of many track/race cars that may cause the rubber hoses to melt.

In addition, the flexible hoses used in braking systems are permeable to water and in time, water can find its way into the system through the hoses, and seriously affect the brake fluid's performance(by lowering its boiling temperature, but that is another topic).

Harold

+ 1

I would also add road salt/brine to the list of potential hazards to rubber lines.

[pj.rodriguez]

So it seems that there is a solid line between those for or against it. Should I be a test junkie? Someone mentioned that the "feel" people claim to have could be due to pad/fluid changes. What if I were to replace fluid and drive around for a few hundred miles then replace the lines and fluid. Would that be something that can give a definitive answer or are there still other variables to consider?

[___whoosh___]

Originally Posted by pj.rodriguez

So it seems that there is a solid line between those for or against it. Should I be a test junkie? Someone mentioned that the "feel" people claim to have could be due to pad/fluid changes. What if I were to replace fluid and drive around for a few hundred miles then replace the lines and fluid. Would that be something that can give a definitive answer or are there still other variables to consider?

I say sure
as soon as the weather breaks I'll be installing my ECS braided brake lines and full rotor and pad kit with the 2 piece front rotors which as super sweet

I can post up some impressions as well

[John_01]

Does anyone have an opinion about the stoptech braided lines? I'm weighing up whether I keep the stock lines or possibly look at another product. I'm mainly concerned with the quality and reliability for circuit use.

[pj.rodriguez]

Originally Posted by John_01

Does anyone have an opinion about the stoptech braided lines? I'm weighing up whether I keep the stock lines or possibly look at another product. I'm mainly concerned with the quality and reliability for circuit use.

I read a lot of good things about the Goodridge brake lines. Lifetime warranty as well!