135i vs E92 M3... Am I mad?

[vivid]

I am currently on the wait list for an E92 M3, infact I am the next in line and my order should be sent to BMWNA in the next week or two... But I am having cold feet and its mainly due to this little 135i...

I know some rag on it for its looks and size but for me I think its a good looking car and size, well, for driving usually smaller the better. So lets get to the points of comparison:


Weight
E92: 3704lbs
135i: 3373lbs

power to weight
E92: 8.9 lbs/hp
135i: 11.2 lbs/hp
chipped: 9.5 lbs/hp (With a moderate chip, nothing too extreme)

Handling
E92: handles better
135i: with some coilovers, (maybe a full LSD), better rubber and strut braces the 135i could be a very very nimble little car.

Reviews
although the M3 is still the king of the mountain there seems to be a few general consensuses about the car... its not very engaging, the steering has reduced feel and its generally a great GT car more than a street ready race car as the M3s of old were... To be honest if the reviews were all glowing I would not be having this discussion...

Price
E92, cost 65% more to buy and therefore pay yearly tax on... Insurance is 40% higher... It drinks ~25% more gas...


Conclusion
On the surface it should be an easy one with E92 winning hands down but its not... I think a few simple and fairly cheap mods and the 135i will give even the E92 a run for its money... The M3s have always been class dominating but this time the M is too heavy and lacks a sporty/engaging feel... That's not to say the M is a bad car, far from it: it still wins most of the head to heads but there is always a "but"... On the other hand the 135i has crisp handling and is very engaging to drive (I have not yet driven one, and am dying to) and with a few simple mods you would have a capable track car, capable of give an M3 a run for its money while costing 65% less...

Now I can afford the new M so its not about money but its more about fun to drive and a bit of value... And I agree there is a bit of a snob factor about driving an M3 over a 135i, but I'm not too fussed about that...

Well I thought I would come here and see what you guys have to say about the topic...

[Jack in Jax]

Vivid, in your shoes I would carefully review the two 4th generation M3 articles in last Fall's Roundel, as I think you might find them informative:

http://www.bmwcca.org/files/evo.pdf
http://www.bmwcca.org/files/bar.pdf

For fun as well as another view, you might also want to get your hands on the recent (10th year) Top Gear 'drive-off' where the M3 was driven by all 3 guys (along with semi-comparable Merc and Audi). They were very impressed with the M3 (despite its weight and the financial penalties you mention).

From a left-brain perspective, is there really 50%+ more fun in the M3 to match it's additional cost...even before you run all the annual cost penalties? I find that hard to imagine...

Jack

[BMWeber]

if you were already to spend the money on the m3 don't look back. and although it might be possible to get the 135i to perform close it wont do it with nearly the style or grace the m3 will. The M3 is the king

[dbtheo]

also keep in mind, you'll probably have to wait longer for a 135

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by Vivid

I am currently on the wait list for an E92 M3, infact I am the next in line and my order should be sent to BMWNA in the next week or two... But I am having cold feet and its mainly due to this little 135i...

I know some rag on it for its looks and size but for me I think its a good looking car and size, well, for driving usually smaller the better. So lets get to the points of comparison:


Weight
E92: 3704lbs
135i: 3373lbs

power to weight
E92: 8.9 lbs/hp
135i: 11.2 lbs/hp
chipped: 9.5 lbs/hp (With a moderate chip, nothing too extreme)

Handling
E92: handles better
135i: with some coilovers, (maybe a full LSD), better rubber and strut braces the 135i could be a very very nimble little car.

Reviews
although the M3 is still the king of the mountain there seems to be a few general consensuses about the car... its not very engaging, the steering has reduced feel and its generally a great GT car more than a street ready race car as the M3s of old were... To be honest if the reviews were all glowing I would not be having this discussion...

Price
E92, cost 65% more to buy and therefore pay yearly tax on... Insurance is 40% higher... It drinks ~25% more gas...


Conclusion
On the surface it should be an easy one with E92 winning hands down but its not... I think a few simple and fairly cheap mods and the 135i will give even the E92 a run for its money... The M3s have always been class dominating but this time the M is too heavy and lacks a sporty/engaging feel... That's not to say the M is a bad car, far from it: it still wins most of the head to heads but there is always a "but"... On the other hand the 135i has crisp handling and is very engaging to drive (I have not yet driven one, and am dying to) and with a few simple mods you would have a capable track car, capable of give an M3 a run for its money while costing 65% less...

Now I can afford the new M so its not about money but its more about fun to drive and a bit of value... And I agree there is a bit of a snob factor about driving an M3 over a 135i, but I'm not too fussed about that...

Well I thought I would come here and see what you guys have to say about the topic...

Ha ha, you got nabbed by this One'er too, hunh? I was looking at buying another Corvette, or the new M3. I just really didn't want a high-revving engine, so I thought I was going to be stuck with an 09' Corvette. Never payed to much attention to the 1 Series until about 4 months ago.

I am still going to test drive an M3 when my SA calls me, but will most likely just order a new 135i instead. BTW, the 335i doesn't appeal to me in the least bit. It is too piggish!

Vivid, you have the "power to weight" wrong. What you've stated was "weight to power".

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Vivid, you have the "power to weight" wrong. What you've stated was "weight to power".

+1. It's strange to even be having the thought of M3 vs. 135i, but just having the thought speaks volumes.

One other major factor to put in there next to the weight to power (hp), should be weight to torque (with and w/o the "chip").

[Advevo]

Before you read on. I can afford an E92 m3 So it s not financial decision.

135i is far better than an E92 m3. I drove both. If you want to keep youre car standard buy an M3 But oh oh mount a few minor tweaks on youre 135i and you won t look back if you like driving specially corners.

Bmw tweaked the 135i engine back to 306hp when they develop the 135i engine it had 400hp. But M said it needs to go back otherwise we don t sell enough M3.

Alpina versions have 360hp and 500nm. With those numbers it s already faster than an M3. Imagine 400hp. lol M5 M6 here we come.

Turbo s are the future. Also M will see that someday.

The 135i is the drivers car from bmw at the moment. Don t let any one else tell you otherwise.

The M3 is a heavy autobahn burner it has nothing to do with Motorsport anymore like it did with E30 M3 It s just a big heavy luxery car with a highrev engine.

[imported_MPower]

Problem here Vivid, is that you are trying to compare a stock car to a modified car and that is almost always going to favor the modified car. Sure, we can talk about potential and we talk about the 135i being a very fast car already. But, if we start talking about that, then we need talk about cars like the future Camaro and Challenger doing the same thing for thousands less.

Regardless, I think this point has been made before: Sure, if all you want is to have M3 speed and 90% of an M3's handling ability, then you can fairly easily modify a 135i to reach that goal. But the 135i will never be an M3.

And just you know, Edmunds' as-tested curb weight for their M3 coupe was 3,590.

[Advevo]

I drove both standard i still pick an 135i over a m3 e92 anyday.

135i is much agiler to drives it gives much more a smile on my face.

M3 was in early days motorsport. Now M stands for marketing.

M3 has more status than an 135i. But he fu.. status i am a driver.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I drove both standard i still pick an 135i over a m3 e92 anyday.

And that is your opinion. I myself, at this point (with very limited experience, i.e. none), could never see turning down the opportunity to pick up an M3.

[Advevo]

I see things otherwise.

I am a racing driver. Drive 1 serie race car and e46 GTR with v8 and 500hp. So i am looking for a car that gives me sensation on the road. And there the 135i steps in quite nicely. If want more fun than a 135i i buy myself a secondhand GT3.

[dixon1763]

This is an interesting decision. I owned two E46 M3s and was considering an E92. I decided on the 1er -- European Delivery on April 16 -- based on the following considerations:

E92: Weight/Power = 3704/414 = 8.95 lbs/hp
Weight/Torque = 3704/295 = 12.56 lbs/lb-ft.

135i: Weight/Power = 3373/300 = 11.24 lbs/hp
Weight/Torque = 3373/300 = 11.24 lbs/lb-ft.

So the M3 is clearly better on weight to power, and the 1er is better on weight to torque unit. However, if you add the Dinan ECU, the numbers for the 1er change dramatically:

135i (Dinan ECU): Weight/Power = 3373/384 = 8.78 lbs/hp
Weight/Torque = 3373/421 = 8.01 lbs/lb-ft.

Now the 135i is better on weight to power, and significantly better on weight to torque. Indeed, the weight to torque figure for the Dinan 135i is very, very impressive. There are only a few cars on the road that achieve this kind of performance.

Of course this discussion neglects qualitative factors and also belies a philosophical difference. The M3 is, in my opinion, nicer looking that the 135i and will probably be neater on the inside too. The E92's motor is more sophisticated, and some will insist on normal aspiration (viz.: the 135 will be my first turbo car). And the M3 handle better out of the box,. However, this last point raises a real question in my mind about 1) how close you can/should get to the limit on public roads and 2) how many drivers know how to approach the limit.

I'd argue that going really quickly anywhere but a controlled environment like a race track is pretty irresponsible (and in so arguing, I am, unfortunately, a hypocrite). But I make this statement because I have access to various racetracks and drive various racecars (sports and formula cars) and can tell you that nothing that goes over the road compares to a proper race car in its ability to turn and stop. Some cars go as quickly in a straight line, but handling is what reveals the difference between street and racecars.

So I'd save the approximately $30K and spend it on a season (or two) of Skip Barber. You'll enjoy your 135, drive it quicker and more safely than most E92 drivers, have a hell of a lot of fun becoming a racing driver, and meet lots of like-minded individuals with whom you'll develop life-long friendships.

That's my perspective. It's taken me a long time to come to the conclusion that a little less handling over the road isn't that much of a compromise. However, if you extend my argument to its logical conclusion, I should be driving a Yugo. So I don't begrudge anyone a Veyron.

Thanks for putting up with big word count.

[vivid]

well guys, I am glad to see that I am not as mad as I once thought I was... Unfortunately I don't have time to make a full reply but will a little later.

[E82tt6]

We've also heard rumors from some folks in Germany that the 135i is faster around BMWs test track stock for stock.

Honestly, if I were thinking about both cars, I'd wait 2-3 weeks and drive both before making up your mind.

[Advevo]

I would not order blind a e92 m3. Drive both first.

[Robert]

Hahaha, I was in your shoe 6 month ago when I swap my name from the M3 waitlist to 135i's. Both are going to be great cars but 135i edge out on the value department. Kind of like do you like to shop in Bloomingdales or is Nordstrom good enough for you. In fact, if I want to spend 60-70 large on a car M3 won't even be in the picture now, Nissan GTR all the way.

I know you can afford the car, so I think the decision should be based on which purchase will make you the happiest. Is it having a M badge and a better car out of the box, or a better purchasing decision. For me, I chose the latter. Because, unfortunately, my 135i will spend most of his life on a public roads and the performance difference between the two, with regards of public safety, will be small.

Thanks for putting up with big word count.

Wow, not at all, those are my sentiments as well.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by E82TT6

We've also heard rumors from some folks in Germany that the 135i is faster around BMWs test track stock for stock.

I've heard rumors that a pig can walk around a track faster than the 135i, but its just a rumor...

Seriously, where did you hear that?

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by MPower

But, if we start talking about that, then we need talk about cars like the future Camaro and Challenger doing the same thing for thousands less.

Lets not bring in those over weight pieces into the conversation. The recent Motor Trend First Drive article about the 2008 challenger, said it weighs in at 4150 lbs. Can we say PIG! I don't care what suspension you put on that, its a boat.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by slickone

Lets not bring in those over weight pieces into the conversation. The recent Motor Trend First Drive article about the 2008 challenger, said it weighs in at 4150 lbs. Can we say PIG! I don't care what suspension you put on that, its a boat.

You're missing the point.

The point is that the new Camaro SS with some sort of V8 will easily match the 135i in acceleration and, with its pretty good VE Commodore routes, should be able to handle well enough to nudge the 135i around the track. But, that does not say anything about the experience or which one is better. Therefore, when people around here start bagging on the M3 purely because from a numbers stand point, you could make the 135i accelerate as fast and handle as well (remember, only in terms of number), it misses the point.

[larryn]

You're now comparing the 135i to non-existent cars, and saying that they will do better on the track in stock form, being anywhere from 500-800lbs more? Even saying you know that they cost thousands less than the 135i???

Who are you, and will the real MPower please come back to the keyboard. :wink:

The 135i is not an M car, but it's extremely close by looking at the numbers (heck, compare it in stock form to a e46 M3 even), and to make it better than one wouldn't take much. That is the entire point of this thread. The OP is talking about his personal experience.. what he would do, not what some magazine should do to compare cars.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by larryn

You're now comparing the 135i to non-existent cars, and saying that they will do better on the track in stock form, being anywhere from 500-800lbs more? Even saying you know that they cost thousands less than the 135i???

Who are you, and will the real MPower please come back to the keyboard. :wink:

The 135i is not an M car, but it's extremely close by looking at the numbers (heck, compare it in stock form to a e46 M3 even), and to make it better than one wouldn't take much. That is the entire point of this thread. The OP is talking about his personal experience.. what he would do, not what some magazine should do to compare cars.

Argg... I am not trying to make any phantom comparisons just trying to make a point.

In my last point, I mentioned that PURELY IN TERMS OF NUMBERS there a decent chance that the Camaro SS (or whatever they call the V8 model) would be as quick (if not quicker around a track). But, as you rightly point out, that says nothing about it being better on the track. It will, afterall, be at least 500 pounds heavier than the 135i. And there is the point.

You can say all you want about the 135i being tunable to M3 levels (if you strictly look at the numbers only) but I highly doubt that you are going to be able to reach the all-around ability, the intangibles, that an M3 (in stock form) would have.

[vivid]

Originally Posted by MPower

You're missing the point.

Therefore, when people around here start bagging on the M3 purely because from a numbers stand point, you could make the 135i accelerate as fast and handle as well (remember, only in terms of number), it misses the point.

But the thing is, if it were just numbers I would not be worried about the new M3 but its not... Just read the reviews both from the press and fellow enthusiasts... Most of the mags still say the M3 is a great car but they all have some major criticism and/or no longer call it the class killer/dominator as the previous M3 have been... Most of the criticism comes from the driving experience you talk about thing like the lack of steering feel and how the M3 has become far more of a GT car... On the other hand Clarkson and others call the 135i the best car BMW makes.