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      07-12-2014, 01:24 PM   #1
BGR
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Alignment Specs

Just had M3 front control arms installed and subsequent alignment. Other than the control arms this is a stock M Sport suspension. I told them to go aggressive as this is primarily a weekend/track car. Do these look right? I'm running 225/255 ZIIs with a PPK but stock otherwise.
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      07-12-2014, 01:31 PM   #2
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Front camber is very poor.
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      07-12-2014, 02:22 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Front camber is very poor.
On a stock suspension? Their notes say they have it as far as it would go. I don't have camber plates.
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      07-12-2014, 02:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGR View Post
On a stock suspension? Their notes say they have it as far as it would go. I don't have camber plates.
Front camber values look just about to be the same of a bone stock 135i
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      07-12-2014, 06:06 PM   #5
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The OEM front camber spec on a standard 128/135 is pretty weird, something like between 0.2 positive and 0.5 negative. Pretty wide range. Based on that, and what people get from the M3 arms, you're right in the ballpark. I don't know if the M-sport is different.

Front toe is pretty high. Good for stability, bad for turn in and wear. I think 1/8 total is plenty, if you keep it maintained. Many here run less.

Rear looks fine, maybe just a touch negative on camber. Fine for the track, will wear the tires some with the toe. But you don't want to go much lower on toe in the rear.
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      07-12-2014, 07:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy
The OEM front camber spec on a standard 128/135 is pretty weird, something like between 0.2 positive and 0.5 negative. Pretty wide range. Based on that, and what people get from the M3 arms, you're right in the ballpark. I don't know if the M-sport is different.

Front toe is pretty high. Good for stability, bad for turn in and wear. I think 1/8 total is plenty, if you keep it maintained. Many here run less.

Rear looks fine, maybe just a touch negative on camber. Fine for the track, will wear the tires some with the toe. But you don't want to go much lower on toe in the rear.
You're saying that M3 arms will only get you -0.2 over stock? I have read -1.5. Why would anyone spend @$400 to get only -0.2?
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      07-12-2014, 09:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski Killset View Post
You're saying that M3 arms will only get you -0.2 over stock? I have read -1.5. Why would anyone spend @$400 to get only -0.2?
-1.5 is what you should see with lowering springs, not sure you'd see that much at stock ride height.

I would not want the OP's setup, it's gonna understeer alot. If the front and rear camber numbers were reversed the car would be 10x more fun to drive. On my last few rwd cars I found 1 degree more negative camber in the front vs rear is a good balance for street/back road fun. (More needed for track work) My 135i convert is no different.

I am at -2.5 front camber with 245 front tires
-1.5 rear camber with 265 rear tires
Near zero toe front and rear and 7 degrees of caster.
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      07-12-2014, 10:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski Killset View Post
You're saying that M3 arms will only get you -0.2 over stock? I have read -1.5. Why would anyone spend @$400 to get only -0.2?
I've heard it gets you about 0.5 negative. If he was at 0.2 negative stock (quite possible), the 0.7 negative makes sense.

Another reason people do it is for the stiffer bushings. Very useful if you're no longer using run flats.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-12-2014 at 11:02 PM..
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      07-13-2014, 12:23 AM   #9
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I got 1.2 ~ 1.3 degrees with the front arms on BMW performance suspension. Maybe the extra ~15mm drop on the front that can give a tiny bit more camber.

The M3 arms are about 10mm longer, so I reckon 0.7 degree change is about right. I am guessing that you probably started off around zero camber.
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      07-13-2014, 09:18 AM   #10
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I have no idea what it was prior to installing the M3 bits. I do know that before it understeers like no other at the track, and after the alignment I can actually see negative camber on the front wheels whereas before they looked vertical. I'm wondering if when BMW aligned the car prior to selling it CPO if they did a fairly conservative alignment.

Like I said before, they adjusted front camber to the max mechanical setting.
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      07-13-2014, 10:55 AM   #11
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For those with -2.0 or more front camber, how is your tire wear on the street?
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      07-13-2014, 11:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGR View Post
On a stock suspension? Their notes say they have it as far as it would go. I don't have camber plates.
You should be able to get more negative camber with the alignment pins removed and the M3 control arms. -0.7 seems pretty weak.

If you really do drive aggressively you want more. If that means adding plates it may be worth the purchase, even if it is just something like the Dinans and not fancy adjustable Vorshlags.
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      07-13-2014, 12:39 PM   #13
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Yep, that looks about like where a standard shop will setup your alignment settings. For sure if you are taking it to a track you need more front camber. At least pull the pins, preferably get some plates. Most getting more camber up front without plates have lowered their cars.

Also, next time they do the alignment I'd argue with them that you want less toe, maybe convince them to try to get your car to 1M alignment specs which specific more camber and less toe. Most alignment shops and tire shops I deal with can be a pain, they ask me why I don't want factory size tires, factory alignment, why I "want my tires to rub", etc. You'd think they'd at least understand tires and suspensions as much as we do since they do it all the time.
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      07-13-2014, 01:22 PM   #14
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FWIW I was able to get -2.4 front camber with m3 arms and dinan camber plates. Was also moderately lowered on ST coils at the time.

I opted to go max front camber and stock toe specs. Rode well (except for the soft ST coils).
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      07-13-2014, 05:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Front camber values look just about to be the same of a bone stock 135i
Bullshit. When my car was stock, with camber pins knocked out and the struts pushed as far in as they could go, I was at -0.3.
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      07-13-2014, 07:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract View Post
Bullshit. When my car was stock, with camber pins knocked out and the struts pushed as far in as they could go, I was at -0.3.
Yup I agree. With M3 bits up front and lowered mildly on swift springs I am at -1.1 degrees up front. When I was stock and only had the alignment pin pulled and the strut pushed inboard as far as it would go was around -.3 degree.s
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      07-13-2014, 07:43 PM   #17
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Where do you get it aligned?
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      07-13-2014, 08:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I got 1.2 ~ 1.3 degrees with the front arms on BMW performance suspension. Maybe the extra ~15mm drop on the front that can give a tiny bit more camber.
It's not huge, but it's more than tiny. Ride height makes a considerable difference, which is one reason why different people get different results from the M3 arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGR View Post
I have no idea what it was prior to installing the M3 bits. I do know that before it understeers like no other at the track, and after the alignment I can actually see negative camber on the front wheels whereas before they looked vertical. I'm wondering if when BMW aligned the car prior to selling it CPO if they did a fairly conservative alignment.

Like I said before, they adjusted front camber to the max mechanical setting.
On a bone stock 1 series camber is not adjustable. It's locked in place by the pin.

And there's a fair variation from car to car. Another reason why different people get different results.

All in all camber varies enormously from car to car. Other people's experiences may not be relevant to you. Experience about the effects of a particular mod are only precisely relevant if everything else about the two cars is identical, including the production dimensions. Not very likely.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-13-2014 at 08:19 PM..
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      07-14-2014, 07:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I got 1.2 ~ 1.3 degrees with the front arms on BMW performance suspension. Maybe the extra ~15mm drop on the front that can give a tiny bit more camber.
It's not huge, but it's more than tiny. Ride height makes a considerable difference, which is one reason why different people get different results from the M3 arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGR View Post
I have no idea what it was prior to installing the M3 bits. I do know that before it understeers like no other at the track, and after the alignment I can actually see negative camber on the front wheels whereas before they looked vertical. I'm wondering if when BMW aligned the car prior to selling it CPO if they did a fairly conservative alignment.

Like I said before, they adjusted front camber to the max mechanical setting.
On a bone stock 1 series camber is not adjustable. It's locked in place by the pin.

And there's a fair variation from car to car. Another reason why different people get different results.

All in all camber varies enormously from car to car. Other people's experiences may not be relevant to you. Experience about the effects of a particular mod are only precisely relevant if everything else about the two cars is identical, including the production dimensions. Not very likely.
Great info, thanks.

Just driving up to the track I feel a noticeably difference, so hopefully it can be felt even more so while actually out there.
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      07-15-2014, 12:31 AM   #20
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I have 1.5 drop and m3 arms. -1.7 is the max. I just got dinan camber plates for -0.7 to max it out -2.4.. I've seen -2.5 with all these parts.. Hopefully your alignment shop will be able to help you.
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      12-29-2022, 07:27 PM   #21
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Good evening, I'm from Brazil and I have an e87 130i 2011 msport. I would like to know what is the best camber to be left at the rear and what is the best position for the convergence of the rear and front. I'm going to do the pin mod and leave as much camber in the front. thanks
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