[visor]

Originally Posted by jcslp15

just out of curiousity, what kind of options did they have on the e46 330ci vs. the e46 330i?

IIRC, stuff like DSC, sport suspension, HK stereo were standard on the 330ci...

[stressdoc]

Let's hope Peter is right about the E90 335 that he saw at a distance. And let's hope that the models are indeed ready for release at the NY auto show. Who is planning to go?

[F32Fleet]

[QUOTE=wahoo]http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...turbo-six.html

base to be 42k for the coupe. Prediction of 45k for the sedan. M3 to start at 52k. Hmmmm...seems I was pretty accurate on the pricing.QUOTE]

Yep...That was my thinking on pricing as well. Told ya folks. BMW doesn't give HP for free. :rocks: :rocks:

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by jcslp15

just out of curiousity, what kind of options did they have on the e46 330ci vs. the e46 330i?

They're the same (U.S. Spec is what I'm talking about).

Some insight to the E46330. Unlike the E46 325, the suspension between sport and non-sport was the same on the 330. The difference was with the wheels,seats, steering wheel (hence only a $1200 option). I suspect BMW did the same with the E90 330 (sport/non-sport).

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by wyrm11

I have to say, there's something really weird about that account. He practically says that the coupe is the e90 body with two doors. "Nothing too different, overall". Now I don't know about you guys, but from all the spy shots and the pretty reasonable PS jobs that we've seen, the e92 exterior is noticeably different from the e90. It's certainly not just the e90 with two doors and definitely not so subtle that I would say it's "nothing too different".

I'm not saying the guy is lying our anything...just that the account doesn't seem to fit with what we've been seeing thus far.

You left out the rest...
Lower, wider, more extreme window angles, front grill ......

Description fits just fine from my perspective...

[no1sportz]

I find it funny that we debate over what the price will be on these new cars...when we could just wait and find out when they release them. But what would be the fun in that....

I get so excited over BMW releasing new cars. I feel like a kid again waiting for the new G.I. Joe transport vehicle to hit the shelves. To bad the budget isn't the same it used to be!!

[chonko]

[QUOTE=Socom]

Originally Posted by wahoo

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...turbo-six.html

base to be 42k for the coupe. Prediction of 45k for the sedan. M3 to start at 52k. Hmmmm...seems I was pretty accurate on the pricing.QUOTE]

Yep...That was my thinking on pricing as well. Told ya folks. BMW doesn't give HP for free. :rocks: :rocks:

I do not honestly believe that the Sedan will cost more than the Coupe. It just doesn't make sense just because they increased the HP by marginal percentage. I think we need to look at the variables that go into setting a pricing scheme- and if you take them into consideration, you will be more convinced that the percentage increase in pricing is going to be less than the percentage increase in both HP& Torque. These are my reasoning:
1. For a significant increase in pricing to occurr because of the engine, that will imply that the engine is the most expensive part of the vehicle- which I believe is not the case.
2. The engine is not exclusively designed for the 3 series hence the cost recovery will be spread across all model lines thus decreasing the cost of development per unit.
3. With improvement in technology, the cost of engine design is not as much as what it used to be in the past.
4. Competition: BMW cannot afford to increase the price of this 335 sedan significantly while the rest of the field is getting hotter. So to maintain it's leadership it will need to maintain significant market share, and the big mistake is pricing yourself out of the market. The rest of the competition has realised the strenght of the market- and considering that this segment accounts for about 40% of the company's sale...
5. So if I were BMW the best thing to do is to raise the price marginally and not siginificantly.

1.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by no1sportz

I find it funny that we debate over what the price will be on these new cars...when we could just wait and find out when they release them. But what would be the fun in that....

I get so excited over BMW releasing new cars. I feel like a kid again waiting for the new G.I. Joe transport vehicle to hit the shelves. To bad the budget isn't the same it used to be!!

LOL.. so true

[Garissimo]

[QUOTE=chonko]

Originally Posted by Socom

5. So if I were BMW the best thing to do is to raise the price marginally and not siginificantly.

I have the feeling most of the 335is that make their way onto dealer lots are going to be pretty optioned out and real world prices will reflect that. As far as guessing actual MSRP, I agree with the rest that say it's kind of pointless to project what we'd *like* BMW to sell the 335i for.

For reference, though, BMW did sell a "p" version of the E46 330i sedan a few years ago and charged a $4.5K premium over the regular 330i. The 330ip didn't get a brand new engine, or model designation, so it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison but it should give us an idea of what to expect.

[F32Fleet]

Yep..just switch'em.

[3aficionado]

[QUOTE=Garissimo]

Originally Posted by chonko

I have the feeling most of the 335is that make their way onto dealer lots are going to be pretty optioned out and real world prices will reflect that. As far as guessing actual MSRP, I agree with the rest that say it's kind of pointless to project what we'd *like* BMW to sell the 335i for.

For reference, though, BMW did sell a "p" version of the E46 330i sedan a few years ago and charged a $4.5K premium over the regular 330i. The 330ip didn't get a brand new engine, or model designation, so it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison but it should give us an idea of what to expect.

The reason a ZHP (or P version) costs thousands more was due to many upgrades including suspension, brakes and other critical racing-oriented parts. Not just a HP bump. A better apples to apples comparison can be made when the e46 changed engines giving more HP. That change was only with the engine and included a minor increase in price. The 335 will only have a change in engines (that is planned to become a mainstream engine over the next few years) which is a similar change to what occurred 6 years ago with the e46.

Your information would hold true if they delivered a 335si (ZHP version) which would have even more HP, upgraded suspension, brakes, etc. That vehicle could command a $4.5K premium. The ZHPs are the closest to the M models as the regular 3 series line gets. They don’t have the M badge or the higher end components but they are close enough that they can charge $4-5K more for them than the base model.

[F32Fleet]

[QUOTE=3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

The reason a ZHP (or P version) costs thousands more was due to many upgrades including suspension, brakes and other critical racing-oriented parts. Not just a HP bump. A better apples to apples comparison can be made when the e46 changed engines giving more HP. That change was only with the engine and included a minor increase in price. The 335 will only have a change in engines (that is planned to become a mainstream engine over the next few years) which is a similar change to what occurred 6 years ago with the e46.

Your information would hold true if they delivered a 335si (ZHP version) which would have even more HP, upgraded suspension, brakes, etc. That vehicle could command a $4.5K premium. The ZHPs are the closest to the M models as the regular 3 series line gets. They don’t have the M badge or the higher end components but they are close enough that they can charge $4-5K more for them than the base model.

YEP..The ZHP has 235 HP and 220 lb Tq. Lower control arms are from the M3, among other things.

The 335i is a large bump in HP when compared to previous models 255 to 305 hp. The ZHP was only 10 hp bump and 20 hp bump over previous 328.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Socom

YEP..The ZHP has 235 HP and 220 lb Tq. Lower control arms are from the M3, among other things.
…
The ZHP was only 10 hp bump and 20 hp bump over previous 328.

That is exactly my point about the ZHP. The price increase of $4.5K had more to do with the better components than it did with HP. The 335 will not see these advanced components. A 335si may see a ZHP-type package and that can easily get a $4.5K bump.

Any new badge will see some price increase. I just don’t think the increase will be as big as many are saying just for this new engine (which is slated to be a mainstream engine in other future models).

Originally Posted by Socom

The 335i is a large bump in HP when compared to previous models 255 to 305 hp.

Its no more of a bump than what occurred in the e46 engine change. There was a 17% increase in HP in the e46 engine change with little increase in price. There is speculated to be an 18% increase in HP for the 335 over the 330.

I noted this information back in post#32 from this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...pp=22&p=227337

Also, I think they have revised the HP in the N54 turbo from 306 to 302HP. Not a big deal but want to make sure we are all dealing with the same facts.

[Dawg Nuts]

I agree 3aficionado, if BMW increases the price of 335 too much, you will see many people jump ship and go over to Lexus & Infiniti. BMW needs to be very careful with their pricing structure and be aware of this fact.

[chonko]

Originally Posted by Dawg Nuts

I agree 3aficionado, if BMW increases the price of 335 too much, you will see many people jump ship and go over to Lexus & Infiniti. BMW needs to be very careful with their pricing structure and be aware of this fact.

Exactly the point here.
The differentiation between BMW and the rest of the competition would not warrant in some cases a spread of $10K. For $10K people will start looking at other alternatives, and BMW does not want that. This is technically their bread and butter.
I think the act of pricing-competition-market share, will make the 335i sedan attract a marginal price increase of about 4%, and they will still maintain a healthy profit.

[3aficionado]

I agree. I was stating recent BMW history as a basis for my prediction. If you add in the numerous other variables then the argument to keep the price down gets even stronger. Items like competition and what the market will bear (different for each country) also have an effect on the pricing of a model.

The e46 engine change resulted in a 1.8% increase in price. A 4% increase gives a couple percentage points for good measure. Following chonkos prediction of a 4% increase for the 335 sedan over the 330 sedan would mean the coupe would see about a $2.5K increase over the e90 330 sedan (coupe being historically $1K-$1.5K more than the sedan). That would place the 335 coupe around $39K MSRP. This would seem more in line with past price increases from similar BMW changes. That would place the 335 coupe perfectly against the competition which has similar stats on paper.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

The reason a ZHP (or P version) costs thousands more was due to many upgrades including suspension, brakes and other critical racing-oriented parts. Not just a HP bump. A better apples to apples comparison can be made when the e46 changed engines giving more HP. That change was only with the engine and included a minor increase in price. The 335 will only have a change in engines (that is planned to become a mainstream engine over the next few years) which is a similar change to what occurred 6 years ago with the e46.

I understand your point, but it remains to be seen if the basic 330i platform can handle the turbo engine's power, and *torque* without any upgrades to brakes, suspension, clutch, etc.

The engine upgrades you refer during the E46's evolution involved minor increases compared to the jump in output the 335i brings to the table. All indications are that the 335i is going to be generating near E46M3 thrust levels.

[Bimmerista]

I think that the 330 has already the bigger brakes and tougher tranny/clutch required to handle the extras in torque and hp. The jump is not a quantum leap, approx 45-50 hp and about the same I think in torque.

[wahoo]

since when has BMW cared about what the competition is doing??? They've been working the 'we don't do HP' mantra for years when you could go to Audi for LESS money than equally optioned 3 series. BMW will price it between the new M and the 330. and what, ladies and gentleman, is the median price between 40 and 52k? I can't believe you all really think that they're going to 'marginally' increase the price. This is 'possible' but highly unlikely. Even if they 'do' then I would factor in that dealers will be preying on the new hp out there. If they come in at 45k they will still be under the current S4. Viola. Not quite the same hp but its a BMW. BMW will hold their price and simply say, well if you don't want the BMW marque,mystique etc then we're willing to let you go to Lexus. The new Lexus super coupe,whatever, will fit the same market segment as the last SC400 IMO. Older, less sporty, plush, well appointed but a boat with respect to handling. JMHO.

Looking forward to the turbo.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

I understand your point, but it remains to be seen if the basic 330i platform can handle the turbo engine's power, and *torque* without any upgrades to brakes, suspension, clutch, etc.

The engine upgrades you refer during the E46's evolution involved minor increases compared to the jump in output the 335i brings to the table. All indications are that the 335i is going to be generating near E46M3 thrust levels.

A valid point.
Also note that when the E60 was redesigned and there was no engine change, the base price of a 530i went up a full 8%!
The car sold well initially, but not nearly as well as the E90 has.

It has been well documented that BMW's costs are not the easiest to keep in check.
It remains to be seen if the E90's price has been kept artificially low in order to boost demand.
Then when the real deal comes along, BMW will have their opportunity to do what they initially did with the E60.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by wahoo

[...] I can't believe you all really think that they're going to 'marginally' increase the price.

Yep. People are deluding themselves if they think the 335i is gonna be just a few K more than the 330i. Things like turbos, intercoolers, bigger clutches, beefed up transmissions, etc. are not no cost adders.

Originally Posted by wahoo

Looking forward to the turbo.

I think we can all agree on that. :rocks:

[chonko]

[QUOTE=wahoo]since when has BMW cared about what the competition is doing???

Well, it is in their business interest to, or else that will lead to their business demise. Business 101.

Just a few things you need to know about the pricing:
1. You only command a significant premium when there is basically no alternative: in this case, there is a lot, and there are more and more manufacturers getting into this segment.
2. If there is significant differentiation between your brand and others, you can leverage that differentiation in the form of pricing: in as much as I love BMW 3-series, I don't think it still has the huge advantage over the competition- they are closing the gap.
3. The position of the product in the company's portfolio is another thing that you need to consider. 3 Series is the cornerstone of the company's profitability, and believe me, it is a fierce segment.

If they come in at 45k they will still be under the current S4. Viola. Not quite the same hp but its a BMW. BMW will hold their price and simply say, well if you don't want the BMW marque,mystique etc then we're willing to let you go to Lexus.

I do not think BMW is willing to see it's customer go especially when the competition is hot on it's trail.
As a company you can only afford to be arrogant when you have a durable competitive advantage over your competition, and when demand is outstripping supply:none of these in this case.

Remember when the Asian car manufacturers started- people were saying almost the samething. Here we are today with them having a greater market share each passing year.
Remember IBM and DELL in the computer world.

So you can't afford to care-less about the competition if you want to survive.