F10 5 Series loaner, Never Again

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

IF you think a 528i is a pig you should come over here where BMW will build you a 520i or 518d - no joke!

The base engine(for the states) for the 5er should really be the 535i N55, with the 550i TTv8 as the top non M engine. Over here most people get a 520d or a 530d. It is very rare day when I see a 535i (N55) 5er on the Autobahns.

Engine really isn't the problem. It sucks, but the issue is the handling/feedback or lack there of. Things like the E39 530i have always been fun to drive, despite not being the fastest car out there.

Originally Posted by COBodom

I realize responding to this thread on the 1 series forum makes little to absolutely no sense, but this “review” calls for an answer. I am not here to bitch and moan about the great car that 1 series is either.

Not sure why you picked quotes for "review". I'm stuck with the car and reporting my experiences in it.

Originally Posted by COBodom

Since you’re driving older M cars or a 1 series I can understand how the N20 or the F10 handling doesn’t live up to a small go-kart experience of a 1 series. The F10 chassis is built on the underpinnings of the 7 series. I can somehow understand your disappointment with the N20 and the F10 handling, but everything else in your review just doesn’t add up.

As much as I would like to say “to each his own” I just can’t. You’re making absolutely no sense and in some cases bluntly going against the pure facts. None of these cons are true:

My last car was a E39 M5, I'm well aware of what a good well sorted 4000lb sport sedan should feel like. The F10 is none of that.

What are the "pure facts"? It's a car that is getting pretty universally panned. My experiences jive pretty well with that.

Originally Posted by COBodom

To say that “Interior feels like garbage” it’s just a joke. I would really like to know what your point of reference here is. Have you ever driven any of the F10 current competitors Infinity M, A6, GS or E-Class ? I can bet money you have not; otherwise you would have known how deeply wrong you are. F10 interior fit, finish and materials are the best in its class (by many car magazines).

My point of reference is that I grew up all my life with luxury cars all around me. Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Aston Martins, Range Rovers, Porsches, BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, and even odd balls like the H1 and such. I've driven and ridden in all of them extensively. I know exactly what a solid interior is, and I know what luxury is. The F10 that I have is none of that. There is a veneer of luxury over a frame of cheap mass production.

So I will happily collect on your "bet".

Originally Posted by COBodom

Then you keep on complaining about the “blurry iDrive system” or how you are unable to get the “ideal driving position due to stylized dash board that comes up at an angle ( …”). Have you tried to adjust the iDrive brightness? If you find the interior of the F10 uncomfortable how you do fit in the 1 series? Again, I would imagine you must have some shiny example of an ideal midsize sedan. A point of reference that makes you complain about the F10 so much. Which of the f10 competitors you find more comfortable? A Corolla? Maybe you're comparing the interior space against the S-Class. Not sure...

I mentioned the iDrive once, and yes, it isn't great. Really the infotainment on the cluster is worse though. Lopsided and a pointless distraction from what you should be doing in a car, driving.

The 1 series, much like my M5, doesn't have an angled center stack that presses into my right leg. As a result I can achieve a proper driving position(shoulder pressed into seat back, wrist breaking over the top of the wheel). It's not happening in the F10 for me.

My shinning example is the E39, no reason to make backwards progress BMW.

Originally Posted by COBodom

The best part is your comparison against the F30 or the mention of the “dumb/counter intuitive ebreak” and the “needlessly complicated Auto shift knob”. You clearly have never driven an F30. I had the F30 as a loaner for a few days. It’s night and day between F10 and F30 when it comes to interior space. These are facts, stuff you can google.

So you think, unlike every other button in the car, this one should be pulled? I will agree it appears to be designed for idiots like every other aspect of the car. Pull away with the ebrake engaged and the car will disable it for you. Find the ebrake too hard to apply? Don't worry, you can set the car up automatically to do it for you.

An auto shift knob should move from P to R N and D. Putting a button for park is pointless. Having a side mounted release is a bit silly, but whatever. Having a "manual" mode where you can pretend to shift is a waste of space. Having 6 different settings to adjust how jerky the gas pedal is is mind bogglingly pointless.

Minor browsing around collaborates what I said, there is little difference in interior space. This is a topic that is alway central to any car for me seeing as I'm 6'5" and the majority of my family/friends are in the 6'+ region or just below.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=47

Originally Posted by COBodom

You do realize that its 2013 and whether its iDrive, MMI, Mbrace, ebreak or auto shift knob; any new technology requires a learning curve at first. All of these have been out there for years and just because you’re coming across them for the first time doesn’t mean that F10 sucks. I mean, this is almost sounds like my grandma who still doesn’t trust ATMs and stands in a 15min line to deposit cash with a teller.

I don't have a problem with new technology. Things like Valvetronic and DISA valves are awesome steps forward in car development. The ECU tech in the S65/S85 is nothing short of astounding.

The problem is when new technology exists for the sake of itself(cluster infotainment on current battery regen rate), is there to satisfy some pointless requirement(secondary air pump or 8 speed auto to BS EPA standards), or worst of all, insulates/destroys a key part of the driving experience(EPS system in the F10).

Originally Posted by COBodom

Either way I am glad you enjoyed the gun “cubbyhole in driver’s side”. Next gen. corolla might have it too for way cheaper than the 5.

Was nice to finally see a US spec car ship with it. EU cars have had it for years and we always got screwed with our lawyer safe crashboard dashboard.

If you think I'm advocating a Corolla...

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by COBodom

+1 Exactly my thoughts on the F10 interior.

I test drove all of them back to back (A6,M,GS,E) none of them has interior that is so nicely executed, classy and yet modern.

A6 - materials feel cheaper, thin seats, no attention to details (no contrast stitching).
M - mini star trek, tasteless Nissan design that doesn't belong in this league.
GS - prolly the best out of them. Yet seats are subpar compared to F10.
E - dated, feels like its overdue for a major redesign.

The E was just refreshed. Drove one just last week. Interior remains mostly the same, but quality and fit takes a nice stride forward.

With all due respect, the base 528i does feel the cheapest - the one TheSt|g drove and the one you'd probably rent from Midway - not the usual forum members' car. I've sat in all of those cars listed multiple times. If it's going to be apples to apples, i.e. base 528i with leatherette, I think standard versions of the previous cars listed actually exceed in quality.

Again, if you're opting for things like the individual package w/ upgraded leather (can't be had in 528i), things change. Same goes for an M-sport wheel over the stock plastic one. Touch points are just -IMO- sub par for a ~50k car.

I wouldn't let it get to me though, if I owned one. Still a highly capable cruiser, and all around great car. Just buy an e39 if you want more feels.

[dorkdog]

Originally Posted by the1andonly

stepping back into my "entry level" 128 is like stepping into a fine tuned machine that is what BMW used to be...

+1

[Zeros and ones]

Originally Posted by COBodom

I realize responding to this thread on the 1 series forum makes little to absolutely no sense, but this “review” calls for an answer. I am not here to bitch and moan about the great car that 1 series is either.

Since you’re driving older M cars or a 1 series I can understand how the N20 or the F10 handling doesn’t live up to a small go-kart experience of a 1 series. The F10 chassis is built on the underpinnings of the 7 series. I can somehow understand your disappointment with the N20 and the F10 handling, but everything else in your review just doesn’t add up.

As much as I would like to say “to each his own” I just can’t. You’re making absolutely no sense and in some cases bluntly going against the pure facts. None of these cons are true:

Cons:
-Unbelievably vague controls
-ZERO feedback to the point where I feel out of control
-Interior feels like garbage
-Electronic ebrake is dumb/counter intuitive
-Auto shift knob is needlessly complicated
-Cluster info screen is bad
-Climate control looks like it is from a Toyota
-iDrive still takes a bit of time to fire up
-Needless settings
-Huge, yet not efficient

To say that “Interior feels like garbage” it’s just a joke. I would really like to know what your point of reference here is. Have you ever driven any of the F10 current competitors Infinity M, A6, GS or E-Class ? I can bet money you have not; otherwise you would have known how deeply wrong you are. F10 interior fit, finish and materials are the best in its class (by many car magazines).

Then you keep on complaining about the “blurry iDrive system” or how you are unable to get the “ideal driving position due to stylized dash board that comes up at an angle ( …”). Have you tried to adjust the iDrive brightness? If you find the interior of the F10 uncomfortable how you do fit in the 1 series? Again, I would imagine you must have some shiny example of an ideal midsize sedan. A point of reference that makes you complain about the F10 so much. Which of the f10 competitors you find more comfortable? A Corolla? Maybe you're comparing the interior space against the S-Class. Not sure...

The best part is your comparison against the F30 or the mention of the “dumb/counter intuitive ebreak” and the “needlessly complicated Auto shift knob”. You clearly have never driven an F30. I had the F30 as a loaner for a few days. It’s night and day between F10 and F30 when it comes to interior space. These are facts, stuff you can google.

You do realize that its 2013 and whether its iDrive, MMI, Mbrace, ebreak or auto shift knob; any new technology requires a learning curve at first. All of these have been out there for years and just because you’re coming across them for the first time doesn’t mean that F10 sucks. I mean, this almost sounds like my grandma who still doesn’t trust ATMs and stands in a 15min line to deposit cash with a teller.

Either way I am glad you enjoyed the gun “cubbyhole in driver’s side”. Next gen. corolla might have it too for way cheaper than the 5.

Even though you do make some good points. The stigs con list is pretty much on the dot.

I have a e39 Dinan 5. I have had some seat time in the 528i, 535, and even the 550i. Even though my e39 compared to the new F10 is light years behind, the one thing the e39 did extremely well was communicate with the driver what it was doing and feeling. My Dinan 5 has been in the family since 2000. It has 127,000 miles on the Odometer and their is not a single rattle or squeak. The interior is not only extremely solid but it is very well laid out.

Even though I like the styling of the F10, taking some external cues from the e39, the interior is nowhere near as solid or as well laid out as on the e39. Had a 528i for a week and I was getting rattles. That is unacceptable.

e39 was the last great sport-sedan BMW, especially the e39 M5. The e60 with is V10 engine couldn't dethrone it. Also the e38 was the last great luxury car BMW ever made. Anything after, they are just catering to the masses.

[RQualk]

Note to self: dont drive a 528i. Thanks for info and review Stig. Whenever I am feeling down on my car I will go test drive a 528i to put me back in my place. Haha

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I mentioned the iDrive once, and yes, it isn't great. Really the infotainment on the cluster is worse though. Lopsided and a pointless distraction from what you should be doing in a car, driving.


An auto shift knob should move from P to R N and D. Putting a button for park is pointless. Having a side mounted release is a bit silly, but whatever. Having a "manual" mode where you can pretend to shift is a waste of space. Having 6 different settings to adjust how jerky the gas pedal is is mind bogglingly pointless.

The problem is when new technology exists for the sake of itself(cluster infotainment on current battery regen rate), is there to satisfy some pointless requirement(secondary air pump or 8 speed auto to BS EPA standards), or worst of all, insulates/destroys a key part of the driving experience(EPS system in the F10).

+1 on just about all you said. The direction cars are going is electronic everything and being "connected" at the expense of driving feel and experience. Two of my friends just bought new cars and all they talked about were the electronic features (i.e. Wi-Fi hot spot, text to voice, Pandora, etc.). Never once was the engine, driving experience or transmission mentioned. Kind of sad really.

I think the two things really changing BMW are the new CAFE requirements and the strong Euro. They have to game the EPA numbers (electronic steering, stop/start, etc.) and up their sales volume (cars for the masses - softer, quieter ride) and cut costs. All of this alienates the enthusiast and caters to the everyday driver.

I'm an engineer and I like new technology, but when it comes to cars, I like technology that will actually IMPROVE the driving experience, not dumb it down (lightweight forged Al or Mg wheels, Ti exhaust, Ti connecting rods/valves, Double VANOS, forged Al suspension parts, Al/Mg engine block, forged Al pistons, HSS BIW, 9000 rpm, etc.)

[COBodom]

You all bring up valid points on handling (off all the F10s) and power delivery of N20 (still fast). You gotta understand though, 5 will never drive like 1. I have a feeling that some of the posters expected 5 to be just a bigger 1. No wonder the disappointment.

I choose not to engage in a pointless debate why F10 doesn't handle as good as an M5, why the auto shift knob has a P button or why the plush is not up to par with Bentley and Rolls Royce.

As far as quality of the build, technology and interior size goes I hope you find something that delivers more when its time for you to shop for a 60K+ luxury midsize sedan. Lets talk then.

In the meantime enjoy your 1 series.......EOM

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by COBodom

You all bring up valid points on handling (off all the F10s) and power delivery of N20 (still fast). You gotta understand though, 5 will never drive like 1. I have a feeling that some of the posters expected 5 to be just a bigger 1. No wonder the disappointment.

I choose not to engage in a pointless debate why F10 doesn't handle as good as an M5, why the auto shift knob has a P button or why the plush is not up to par with Bentley and Rolls Royce.

As far as quality of the build, technology and interior size goes I hope you find something that delivers more when its time for you to shop for a 60K+ luxury midsize sedan. Lets talk then.

In the meantime enjoy your 1 series.......EOM

Not sure why this is flying over your head, but I'm not comparing this to my 1er in the slightest. I'm talking about the F10 on its own and occasionally contrasting it with the E39.

It's not a mystery why it handles like shit, the EPS system BMW has elected to use is garbage. Nothing more to it.

Already had my $60k+ luxury midsize sedan. Given your tastes for badge whoring, I doubt we will have much to talk about if I get another in the future. I also don't expect it to be a Rolls, but I do expect it to be as good as older 5ers.

[zamboni]

Now you really appreciated your 1er with hydraulic steering & sport setting more than F10 or F30.

[RootCanal05]

The button E-brake in my 550 confused a valet parking attendant resulting in the car rolling (6MT) into a Lexus. I only had the car 6 days out of the showroom. I never had that problem with my 135 6MT.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by zamboni

Now you really appreciated your 1er with hydraulic steering & sport setting more than F10 or F30.

Sport setting?

Always appreciated my steering though, it is the cornerstone of the car.

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by RootCanal05

The button E-brake in my 550 confused a valet parking attendant resulting in the car rolling (6MT) into a Lexus. I only had the car 6 days out of the showroom. I never had that problem with my 135 6MT.

I work valet in the summer at an extremely nice hotel.. (hey, student here. Need mod $.. stat!)

But that pisses me off!
I'm truly sorry, I hope that attendant lost his job.

But yesss, everything has that damn E-E-brake switch - everything german at least. No point in arguing with something that won't change in the foreseeable future.
Also, this is how I validate my 528i remarks in comparison to everything else. They're a common rental here.

[jsmonet]

Originally Posted by RootCanal05

The button E-brake in my 550 confused a valet parking attendant resulting in the car rolling (6MT) into a Lexus. I only had the car 6 days out of the showroom. I never had that problem with my 135 6MT.

Your valet was a moron. It just isn't hard to figure out.

Neither is the auto's shifter. It is the same thing in the 1, 5, x3, etc. it is dead simple to operate. The complaint on that was just comedy

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by jsmonet

Your valet was a moron. It just isn't hard to figure out.

Neither is the auto's shifter. It is the same thing in the 1, 5, x3, etc. it is dead simple to operate. The complaint on that was just comedy

It's very easy to operate. It also has a plethora of useless features/modes.

[abirmaher]

My dad has a 550 and honestly its hugely quick for what it is but I do find it very soft and hate how you cant hear any engine noise or any of that, but then again thats what that car is supposed to be I think. That being said I dont plan to ever end up in a car like that. Once I work my way up I'd be very happy with an M3 sedan as an every day car.

[doublevanosrc]

Originally Posted by RQualk

Note to self: dont drive a 528i. Thanks for info and review Stig. Whenever I am feeling down on my car I will go test drive a 528i to put me back in my place. Haha

[CSBM5]

I spent a few days with an F10, and when I was turning it back in (loaner) and asked what I thought of it, I was at a loss for words (been driving BMWs of all types since 1974) for a moment. Then it came to me. I told the SA that the F10 feels like it was built by Lexus. BMW finally built the Lexus-BMW that Lexus has been trying to build.

In any event, it was by far the most disappointing "try out the new 5-series experience" I've ever had (and I've been through every single one since the E12 in 1975).

Of course having a wheelbase longer than a 1978 Oldsmobile 88 luxury sedan doesn't help one's impression of an F10 "5-series" either.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by tuco44

The problem boils down to simply this:
- there are probably ten to fifteen times as many badge-seekers, and wanna-bes as there are real enthusiasts, thus
- BMW will make a ton more money and return on shareholder investment selling way more cars to the non-enthusiast crowd.

BMW built it's reputation on enthusiasts, but there are not enough of us any more. It's the overall dumbing-down of driving in general.

Sometimes I am happy that I don't have a bunch more years to be frustrated by this trend.

Sums it nicely, and my thoughts exactly.

[lakylester]

I kind of liked the f10 528 I had as a loaner..only 150 miles. You have to remember it is a 5 not a 135... Very different cars for a different purpose!

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by lakylester

I kind of liked the f10 528 I had as a loaner..only 150 miles. You have to remember it is a 5 not a 135... Very different cars for a different purpose!

This thread has nothing to do with a 135 or the 1 series in general.