1M Coupe VS M3 GTS Nurburgring Lap 7.45

[Tobbep]

Great driving. Very impressive. The only thing is that the Ring time is deceiving. This is not a true 7.45 time as we usually compare cars to. There is a big difference between bridge to gantry vs. including the last stretch...

Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Nonetheless this is Amazing driving...

[e82ftw]

That was awesome. Makes me want to do ED so bad!!

[MRob]

Originally Posted by Tobbep

Great driving. Very impressive. The only thing is that the Ring time is deceiving. This is not a true 7.45 time as we usually compare cars to. There is a big difference between bridge to gantry vs. including the last stretch...

Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Nonetheless this is Amazing driving...

You are not wrong, but the OP did clearly state that the time was bridge to gantry.

[MRob]

Originally Posted by Tobbep

Great driving. Very impressive. The only thing is that the Ring time is deceiving. This is not a true 7.45 time as we usually compare cars to. There is a big difference between bridge to gantry vs. including the last stretch...

Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Nonetheless this is Amazing driving...

It is not really correct to say "usually compare" as not all times truly are a full lap. For instance most of the Sport Auto times are of a 20,600m distance, not the full circuit distance of 20,832m. What did you mean by "usually compare"?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Advevo

The car has done a 7.45 Bridge to Gantry.

Okay, the VO 1M below needs a minus 25sec update...

[Dee Pee]

The bulldog is fast!

[Tobbep]

Originally Posted by MRob

It is not really correct to say "usually compare" as not all times truly are a full lap. For instance most of the Sport Auto times are of a 20,600m distance, not the full circuit distance of 20,832m. What did you mean by "usually compare"?

When I look at the Ring times I'm comparing cars to the official times done by cars like the Nissan GTR, Corvette ZO6, Corvette ZR1, etc... I know that they rent the track and does not have any traffic to deal with but they end where they start, hence a full lap on the Ring. This is how some of the race teams train as well. I went on a ride-along with Sabine Schmitz in her Race Porsche and she did the same thing. This is how she timed herself and this was with normal traffic on the track. This is why the time threw me off as a 7:45 would have been beyond amazing with a full lap.

For example the E92 M3 did an official 8:05 lap time on the Ring. This is the specific time I'm referring to.

I hope I'm making sense.

[EmmDrei]

A clarification on the different track lengths:

The pure Nordschleife is officially 20.832m long. That is driven either during trackdays or the so called "Industriefahrten" (days where the track is rented out exclusively to the automobile industry and where they test cars from all sorts of manufacturers all day long) or as an officially race timed lap during the "Rundstreckenchallenge Nürburgring" (RCN). Timed full-length Nordschleife laps are usually run on the industry days. It is no longer possible to set an official Nordschleife lap record (as far as race timing goes - which is the only thing that is officially official, everything else is marketing bs) as the RCN has set a fastest laptime of 7:15 (for the 20.832m), anyone that goes faster will be black flagged and excluded.

Then there are track variants. Nordschleife + GP course, Nordschleife + GP course in the 24h version (26,3km - out of my memory... give or take a few meters) and Nordschleife + GP course in the VLN version (24,5km - out of my memory... give or take a few meters). And there is the pure GP course in 5 or six possible versions.

When trackday organizers rent the track, they can choose which version they want to rent. If you want the Nordschleife, then Nordschleife alone is the cheapest option. Cheap being relative. It is probably the most expensive track in the world to rent for a day. Oh well... it's also the longest. By far.

Since Nordschleife trackday organisers have the entire track, you can time, drive and film a full lap. However not all makers of laptimers, software, etc. have understood the difference of the individual tracks, rather track lengths and the different start/finish lines. So sometimes you end up timing something you don't really want, because your equipment doesn't offer the option you need. (Happened to me on the Nordschleife last Saturday when I realized the predefined and preloaded trackset on my GPS laptimer was set to a wrong start/finish line.)

BtG (Bridge to Gantry) is a merely a construction to try to have someting compareable when driving in tourist traffic. Mind you: timing is NOT permissible during tourist traffic! It happes, that they confiscate timing equipment at the entry to the track when they see it. Rightfully so, imho! The reason is, that the long straight (Döttinger Höhe) cannot be driven as a straight. Why? You end one lap and start the next and before doing so, you have to show your ticket.

The lap the SportAuto uses is always shorter than a full Nordschleife lap. It is 20.600m if you add up the individual sectors (see the supertest lap (from their own website) for the 1M below):



I have no idea why they do that. And I am yet to meet someone that has a sensible explanation for their lap-length choice. But they started with it, so they have to stick to it, otherwise laptimes would no longer be compareable.

If you look at the image above, you can easily see that the 1M needs 49,3 seconds for the straight, measured from the gantry to their end of lap. The "bridge" is located right after the ultra fast left hander (Antoniusbuche). From there to the "Hohenrain" chicane is about 700-800m.

There is another big difference between the SportAuto lap and BtG (at least BtG done correctly). BtG is done with a standing start, as Andre and his friend do. The SportAuto lap is a flying lap. If you "fly" a BtG lap, you'll have approx. 220km/h on the start line, with a standing start, I would say between 100-140km. Quite a difference!

To make a long story short it is almost impossible to compare the two. Drive them, time them, then you know. Everything else is pure theory.

Andres lap is pretty darn fast. No wonder, he is a fast driver. He is roughly around 30 seconds faster than my personal best with the 1M in stock setup (I never time BtG so it's hard to compare). It simply shows the 1Ms potential. Take it as that, as I would say, that that is the way it is intended.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Very informative post ^^^. Thanks for putting that together, I think it's very helpful in particular for people who have never been to the 'Ring.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[Robin_NL]

Yesterday Advevo was at my house talking about that particular lap.

8:00 mins for a complete lap, without traffic for a STOCK 1M can be possible.Maybe Andre is just faster than Horst?

(I know he is, I know)

FWIW

Cheers
Robin

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Yesterday Advevo was at my house talking about that particular lap.

8:00 mins for a complete lap, without traffic for a STOCK 1M can be possible.Maybe Andre is just faster than Horst?

(I know he is, I know)

FWIW

Cheers
Robin

Thanks for telling us this. I guess most people in this Forum don't have any doubt about that and it is really not the first time 1M is "underrated" by officials; take your pick: hp, torque, lap time. Just adds to the "mystery" of our cars

Of course Andre would be driving M3 and others faster as well! But there wouldn't be a 10 sec. difference between M3 and 1M as it stands today on paper.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Thanks for telling us this. I guess most people in this Forum don't have any doubt about that and it is really not the first time 1M is "underrated" by officials; take your pick: hp, torque, lap time. Just adds to the "mystery" of our cars

Of course Andre would be driving M3 and others faster as well! But there wouldn't be a 10 sec. difference between M3 and 1M as it stands today on paper.

De nada, amigo.

I drove Advevo's black 1M (stock) half a year ago. I came from a E90 M3 6MT, but the 1M doesn't just feel faster, it just is as well. And going through some bends you feel the shorter wheelbase, a tad more agility(just a tad) and the surplus of torque compared to the M3. 1M equals M3 or better, no doubt(also on track)

It's a pity I have a wife and two kids, otherwise I'd be driving a 1M. LOL

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

De nada, amigo.

I drove Advevo's black 1M (stock) half a year ago. I came from a E90 M3 6MT, but the 1M doesn't just feel faster, it just is as well. And going through some bends you feel the shorter wheelbase, a tad more agility(just a tad) and the surplus of torque compared to the M3. 1M equals M3 or better, no doubt(also on track)

It's a pity I have a wife and two kids, otherwise I'd be driving a 1M. LOL

Boy I have a wife and two kids as well, wife drives something else 1M is sort of my legal mistress

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by Tobbep

When I look at the Ring times I'm comparing cars to the official times done by cars like the Nissan GTR, Corvette ZO6, Corvette ZR1, etc... I know that they rent the track and does not have any traffic to deal with but they end where they start, hence a full lap on the Ring. This is how some of the race teams train as well. I went on a ride-along with Sabine Schmitz in her Race Porsche and she did the same thing. This is how she timed herself and this was with normal traffic on the track. This is why the time threw me off as a 7:45 would have been beyond amazing with a full lap.

For example the E92 M3 did an official 8:05 lap time on the Ring. This is the specific time I'm referring to.

I hope I'm making sense.

This has already been addressed on page 5. You must add 25 to 30 secs to get the approximate time of a full lap.

What this this basically means is that the M3 GTS driver was slow if we add even 25 seconds seeing as the GTS official time is 7:48.

On the other hand the 1M driver is very fast and pretty much matching the time of 8:15 posted by the 1M although he does haveavoid overs and better tires (if I'm not mistaken).

[M3 Montreal]

Meant coilovers

[snipe]

"BtG (Bridge to Gantry) is a merely a construction to try to have someting compareable when driving in tourist traffic. Mind you: timing is NOT permissible during tourist traffic! It happes, that they confiscate timing equipment at the entry to the track when they see it. Rightfully so, imho! The reason is, that the long straight (Döttinger Höhe) cannot be driven as a straight. Why? You end one lap and start the next and before doing so, you have to show your ticket."

True, but it's also used on trackdays. If you want to time a whole lap, you have to drive 3 laps, which means you drive over 60 km (in - timed lap - out).

[cooler2442]

Unless you are driving a Nissan GTR it is usually 80% driver skill and 20% car. It is obvious that the 1M driver is much more skilled than the GTS driver.

[335beeeemer]

I think he could have taken the m3 at certain points. Amazing.

[VO 1M]

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

A clarification on the different track lengths:

The pure Nordschleife is officially 20.832m long. That is driven either during trackdays or the so called "Industriefahrten" (days where the track is rented out exclusively to the automobile industry and where they test cars from all sorts of manufacturers all day long) or as an officially race timed lap during the "Rundstreckenchallenge Nürburgring" (RCN). Timed full-length Nordschleife laps are usually run on the industry days. It is no longer possible to set an official Nordschleife lap record (as far as race timing goes - which is the only thing that is officially official, everything else is marketing bs) as the RCN has set a fastest laptime of 7:15 (for the 20.832m), anyone that goes faster will be black flagged and excluded.

Then there are track variants. Nordschleife + GP course, Nordschleife + GP course in the 24h version (26,3km - out of my memory... give or take a few meters) and Nordschleife + GP course in the VLN version (24,5km - out of my memory... give or take a few meters). And there is the pure GP course in 5 or six possible versions.

When trackday organizers rent the track, they can choose which version they want to rent. If you want the Nordschleife, then Nordschleife alone is the cheapest option. Cheap being relative. It is probably the most expensive track in the world to rent for a day. Oh well... it's also the longest. By far.

Since Nordschleife trackday organisers have the entire track, you can time, drive and film a full lap. However not all makers of laptimers, software, etc. have understood the difference of the individual tracks, rather track lengths and the different start/finish lines. So sometimes you end up timing something you don't really want, because your equipment doesn't offer the option you need. (Happened to me on the Nordschleife last Saturday when I realized the predefined and preloaded trackset on my GPS laptimer was set to a wrong start/finish line.)

BtG (Bridge to Gantry) is a merely a construction to try to have someting compareable when driving in tourist traffic. Mind you: timing is NOT permissible during tourist traffic! It happes, that they confiscate timing equipment at the entry to the track when they see it. Rightfully so, imho! The reason is, that the long straight (Döttinger Höhe) cannot be driven as a straight. Why? You end one lap and start the next and before doing so, you have to show your ticket.

The lap the SportAuto uses is always shorter than a full Nordschleife lap. It is 20.600m if you add up the individual sectors (see the supertest lap (from their own website) for the 1M below):



I have no idea why they do that. And I am yet to meet someone that has a sensible explanation for their lap-length choice. But they started with it, so they have to stick to it, otherwise laptimes would no longer be compareable.

If you look at the image above, you can easily see that the 1M needs 49,3 seconds for the straight, measured from the gantry to their end of lap. The "bridge" is located right after the ultra fast left hander (Antoniusbuche). From there to the "Hohenrain" chicane is about 700-800m.

There is another big difference between the SportAuto lap and BtG (at least BtG done correctly). BtG is done with a standing start, as Andre and his friend do. The SportAuto lap is a flying lap. If you "fly" a BtG lap, you'll have approx. 220km/h on the start line, with a standing start, I would say between 100-140km. Quite a difference!

To make a long story short it is almost impossible to compare the two. Drive them, time them, then you know. Everything else is pure theory.

Andres lap is pretty darn fast. No wonder, he is a fast driver. He is roughly around 30 seconds faster than my personal best with the 1M in stock setup (I never time BtG so it's hard to compare). It simply shows the 1Ms potential. Take it as that, as I would say, that that is the way it is intended.

The location of the start-finish of the SportAuto lap is where they enter the track (T13). They do not enter where you enter during Touristenfahrten.
I guess it is not a full lap as after going over the finishline they brake and turn right of the track avoiding have to drive a 28km out-lap.

[GrumpyBimmerFan]

It is a pretty good lap. I agree, I think there were couple of places where you could have shaved some time off. I give you thumbs up for driving with no traction control I am hesitant, as my m3 is my mistress, so I always use protection (MDM).

GTS driver didn't seem too good.... or maybe it was a warm up lap for him...

[Kayani_1]

In my opinion 1M driver seems more skilled then the GTS driver. The 1M driver seemed to be taking a better line on some parts of the track then the GTS driver. That is why when the track would open up to a straight the GTS would take off into distant only to be caught back up on turns. The driver skill is the main difference.

[Em/1]

Well now I know--any problem running with the big dogs at the track are with me and not the car!!! Really smooth drive and made my ride with Walter in the Ring Taxi seem a bit tame (and it wasn't!)