Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2011 - Randy Pobst may be right after all!

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by bdaddylo

If you're asking this means you really didn't drive (figuratively) these cars. I'm almost a 100% sure the Boxter Spyder and Cayman R do not come with PSM.

They come with PSM and it can't be completely turned off.

[HALOTHANE]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

You cannot say the same about the Cayman R though, even if it doesn't have the right engine.

Technically brilliant here means the chassis is so good that can take the 997.2 GT3 engine (3.8L) without any problem at all in order to have all the passion it deserves.

However, Porsche will not allow that... they don't want to kill the 911 hype. A ~400hp Cayman would kill an equal powered 911 in any track, any day.

As a daily drive though... it's very hard to beat a good front engined rwd car like the 1M for fun!

Why not get the Cayman R, in that case?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

"Technically brilliant.....But, NO sense of passion"

http://youtu.be/riGejPAqNVw

Attachment 594763

Quoting Clarkson in a serious conversation will lose you credibility fast. The cayman has more passion than the 1 series, passion to Clarkson is hooliganism, ability to burn rubber, swing the tail out at 90 degrees, the guy will probably say his ex-GT40 or any vette has more passion than any BMW because they are raw and packed with horses.

Chances are you won't be do any of that on the street. So much for passion.

[tkbr0wn]

Originally Posted by Robert

Quoting Clarkson in a serious conversation will lose you credibility fast. The cayman has more passion than the 1 series, passion to Clarkson is hooliganism, ability to burn rubber, swing the tail out at 90 degrees, the guy will probably say his ex-GT40 or any vette has more passion than any BMW because they are raw and packed with horses.

Chances are you won't be do any of that on the street. So much for passion.

So if I quote Robert, does that mean I get to keep my credibility? You say Cayman has more passion, Clarkson says it has no passion.

To help me decide who to trust, can you answer a few questions for me?

How many different cars have you driven over the past 5 years?
How many of those cars did you get to drive near their limit?
Did you get to drive any of those cars on a track?
What time and what channel is your TV show about cars on?

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by Robert

Quoting Clarkson in a serious conversation will lose you credibility fast......

Trust me the purpose of posting the Top Gear video of the Cockster S was not an attempt to gain credibility in you eyes. It was more to balance the onslaught of useless quotes and bipolar posting in regards to the 1M. Did you even read this thread?

I'm sure you are a more credible source and bigger car guru than Clarkson, lol.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by tkbr0wn

So if I quote Robert, does that mean I get to keep my credibility? You say Cayman has more passion, Clarkson says it has no passion.

To help me decide who to trust, can you answer a few questions for me?

How many different cars have you driven over the past 5 years?
How many of those cars did you get to drive near their limit?
Did you get to drive any of those cars on a track?
What time and what channel is your TV show about cars on?

Who you trust does not matter to me. People can state their voice and opinion on here as long as its not a character attack. I am merely stating mine, whether it applies to you use your own judgement. I gain nothing by being right.

I give props to Going To Fast for sticking with to his guns. Don't attack someone because they have a different point of view. Try re-reading my post and thinking about it instead having a knee jerk response.

Or should I break it down. Clarkson's passion means hooliganism -> burnout, MORE POWAH -> Driving to the limit -> Rarely occurs in everyday driving -> therefore ability to do that is moot. Owning a car at the limit that is more forgiving is better than a car that is less predictable on street driving.

[tkbr0wn]

Originally Posted by Robert

Don't attack someone because they have a different point of view.

Errr, Aren't you attacking Clarkson's point of view by saying anyone that quotes him loses their credibility?

Originally Posted by Robert

Or should I break it down. Clarkson's passion means hooliganism -> burnout, MORE POWAH -> Driving to the limit -> Rarely occurs in everyday driving -> therefore ability to do that is moot. Owning a car at the limit that is more forgiving is better than a car that is less predictable on street driving.

So you've talked to Clarkson and asked him his definition of Passion?

And one last thing..... Aren't you driving a Lexus?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

Trust me the purpose of posting the Top Gear video of the Cockster S was not an attempt to gain credibility in you eyes. It was more to balance the onslaught of useless quotes and bipolar posting in regards to the 1M. Did you even read this thread?

I'm sure you are a more credible source and bigger car guru than Clarkson, lol.

I perused through this entire thread yes, in detail no. Going To Fast is humble enough to admit the car he wants, a 1M, is great but not god's gift to man. His antics may irk some existing owners or enthusiasts but a great show characters here to attack him personally. So I assume people rather stick their head in the hole than have an open honest discussion.

Another great irony of argument here, as on most forum, is based on what you drive or how many cars you drove gives you credibility. But of course THAT goes out the window as soon as the opinion is different.

"Yea these journalists test drive different cars PROFESSIONALLY every day must be morons."

[tkbr0wn]

Originally Posted by Robert

I perused through this entire thread yes, in detail no. Going To Fast is humble enough to admit the car he wants, a 1M, is great but not god's gift to man. His antics may irk some existing owners or enthusiasts but a great show characters here to attack him personally. So I assume people rather stick their head in the hole than have an open honest discussion.

Another great irony of argument here, as on most forum, is based on what you drive or how many cars you drove gives you credibility. But of course THAT goes out the window as soon as the opinion is different.

"Yea these journalists test drive different cars PROFESSIONALLY every day must be morons."

LOL, You're the one who indirectly questioned Clarkson's credibility. I then questioned yours... Where's the problem?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by tkbr0wn

Errr, Aren't you attacking Clarkson's point of view by saying anyone that quotes him loses their credibility?

Attacking, no. Making a point on his showmanship, yes.

So you've talked to Clarkson and asked him his definition of Passion?

And one last thing..... Aren't you driving a Lexus?

Here we go again, attack people on what they drive. Yes I am in a Lexus now because my 135i broke down on 6 times in 18 mos of ownership and I am shopping for a cayman s right now. So by the nature of price tag and prestige does that make me a better person than you when I purchase the cayman? I would hope not. So what's your point on the Lexus?

Did I mention anywhere Lexus is a great driver's car? No it's quite the opposite of one but it's a more reliable of a ride and fits my current schedule not having room to make unscheduled service stops.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by tkbr0wn

LOL, You're the one who indirectly questioned Clarkson's credibility. I then questioned yours... Where's the problem?

Sorry can't carry an intelligent conversation with someone who merely attacks the other person. Have you noticed your response has gone completely off subject of the cars but towards me? Talk to you later, actually, never

[tkbr0wn]

Originally Posted by Robert

Here we go again, attack people on what they drive. Yes I am in a Lexus now because my 135i broke down on 6 times in 18 mos of ownership and I am shopping for a cayman s right now. So by the nature of price tag and prestige does that make me a better person than you when I purchase the cayman? I would hope not. So what's your point on the Lexus?

Did I mention anywhere Lexus is a great driver's car? No it's quite the opposite of one but it's a more reliable of a ride and fits my current schedule not having room to make unscheduled service stops.

All of my questions were very purposely written to determine your level of credibility.

As for the Lexus... WOW, I didn't realize the simple question about what car you drive would be perceived as an attack. Can I take your response as an indication that you don't like the Lexus?

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by Robert

...Going To Fast...His antics may irk some existing owners or enthusiasts but a great show characters here to attack him personally....

"Yea these journalists test drive different cars PROFESSIONALLY every day must be morons."

I actually don't have a problem with the Autocars assesment of the 1M. Going to Fast stated in the thread title "Randy Pobst may be right after all!" He then began quoting Pobst and how he "hated" the 1M. The Autocar reviewers never said that. He was trying to make that link. He then goes on to calls guys buying M cars "fan boys" Rather than just post the Autocar article and discuss it turned into a Randy Pobst 'leg-humping' session, like i said already. You saying that "Driving to the limit -> Rarely occurs in everyday driving -> therefore ability to do that is moot" is really puzzling to me. Isn't that what Autocar is doing in judging the best "drivers" car? I guess you are making my point for me. Quantifying a great "drivers" car and then quantifying it by pushing it to the limit on the track is moot! Thanks!

Originally Posted by Robert

...my 135i broke down on 6 times in 18 mos of ownership and I am shopping for a cayman s right now....

Ohhhh, is that why you don't give Clarkson credibility? That's why you are on the attack. It all makes sense now. It doesn't fit into your future Cockster purchase. So if you don't like what the journalist has to say about your car they lose credibility. Hypocrisy

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by 1MVO

Why not get the Cayman R, in that case?

Because I don't want a track-oriented car as a dd.

I owe Randy Pobst an apology because from a pure racing driver's perspective I understand now what I couldn't understand then - why he can 'hate' the handling of the 1M.

I don't know if 8th place overall out of 11 cars corresponds to the 'hated' category in a Britain's Best Driver's Car competition - probably not - but what is relevant about Autocar's test is that you can find the same kind of criticism to the 1M handling in the track if you read between the lines, as I'm trying to point out. The fact that it comes from the same magazine and the same guy (SS) that when first tested the 1M on the road was so impressed by it that he said it was something like the E30 M3 'incarnation' makes the criticism even more credible.

From a dd fun perspective I just love the 1M and that's what I want, dd fun! And that none seems to be able to criticize.

[Bobby Digital]

What a strange thread...

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Bobby Digital

What a strange thread...

After all the hype surrounding the 1M I also thought at first it was strange that RP 'hated' the 1M and that Autocar gave only 8th place (out of 11) to the 1M in Britain's Best Driver's Car this year competition, especially when they liked the car so much on the road.

Then, I started to understand why...

[GoingTooFast]

I've been talking about dd fun with the 1M at slow/moderate speeds... but what is it exactly?

I think the following vid can answer to just that. Take note of how he is using the hand-brake to initiate the drift so he doesn't have to rely on speed - very nice:

1M MEGA FUN!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

Ohhhh, is that why you don't give Clarkson credibility? That's why you are on the attack. It all makes sense now. It doesn't fit into your future Cockster purchase. So if you don't like what the journalist has to say about your car they lose credibility. Hypocrisy

I wish my life is as black and white as yours. Personally whether Clarkson and I are on the same page is irrelevant. I was one of first in nation to own a 135i back in 08 while everyone else thinks it's butt ugly. It still is, the 1M is a little bit better.

It's a simple fact he's a showman rather than an objective evaluator. You should search for the bad quotes he has on bmw. He's great with his grotesque remarks for entertainment. For performance I trust stig and the wall any day than clarkson's scripted comments


Here's one on 335i coupe

Clarkson -

But there’s one big problem, says Clarkson. “£33,420 for a car that doesn’t even look as good as a Hyundai? You’d have to be mad.”

.

[Redadair]

This post needs to be Closed. What a Waste of time!!!

[GoingTooFast]

Some quotes from the forum users on Randy Pobst opinion about the 1M:

Originally Posted by gthal

Considering it doesn't exist yet, that's a little presumptuous don't you think

I think the 1M is a great car (just saw one at the track this past weekend) and I'm sure it is a ton of fun. But come on, someone doesn't like it and everyone becomes a bunch of babies!! Not everyone will like the 1M and that's OK. This guy is a professional racecar driver and knows what he's talking about. You can disagree but that doesn't make his opinion wrong but it is just HIS opinion. The 1M is still a great car in its price range regardless as to what he thinks... now stop being big babies

Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3

i feel sorry for those people who buy cars and expect everyone to admire them. it's a real pisser when someone comes along and takes a big juicy dump in your cheerios.
buy the car for what YOU like and who cares what anyone else thinks. jeez, grow up.

Originally Posted by Fundahl

Camber plates, new tires, bolt-ons + tune. Then re-review.

The factory understeer is apparent. Just look how the back tires sit vs the front, you can see the back having more camber.

Like he said, the car was built safe for guys that don't track often. That's why people like me like mods.

Originally Posted by alphagamma

I feel like everyone's being too defensive about a car. Randy Pobst seems to have been writing from the POV of driving a car that allows a driver to drive fast. This entails neutral handling, good linear power delivery, and etc. He's right, having the tail come out easily and not in a linear fashion is not a good attribute for racing (his POV). However, it does make the car fun to drive. I feel like the 1M was designed to be more of a wild fun car. This is like when Richard Hammond was reviewing the Z4 M Roadster.

So many people disliked the car's handling characteristics when trying to drive a clean and fast line, but Hammond noted the car was probably not meant for that purpose. He demonstrated his point by driving it balls to the walls with the tail hanging. The fact the 1M is a quick car is probably just the nature of having high power, high torque, wide wheels, and big brakes in a small car.

Originally Posted by erio

Be careful about posting anything negative about the 1M or the thread might get deleted/closed. There was a normal 1m vs m3 discussion going on in the "vs" section of the m3 forum when it got erased soon after the motor trend review was mentioned. All I said was that I respected Randy's opinion as a driver. Someone then commented about a 600whp kit coming out for the 1m. The 1m like the regular 1 series already has been noted to be a little jittery in high speed corners due to short wheelbase, etc. I stated that was too much power for the car on the track. I commented that it would make the car unbalanced with way to much power for the chassis unless they were planning on taking it to the drag strip. I respect the 1m for what it is and we were having a healthy discussion. Someone didn't like the direction the thread was going and it was erased.

See below:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580760

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

And, without a doubt, the car does understeer! Not anywhere as bad as most stock cars (including BMWs), but it is present. For this reason, I'm installing some adjustable camber/caster plates on mine.

Neil

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

As I posted in another thread, I found that the "cornering brake control" -- which can not be turned off -- interfered with using the brakes to rotate the car.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578573

And another thread on same http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1705775

Neil

Originally Posted by 1M Fan

First let me say, my 1M is a great car. It is the perfect daily driver for me. Now let the flames begin. On a tight, slow course, I've experienced a similar reluctance to turn or push especially under heavy braking and the power is off.

[GoingTooFast]

Let's compare the following vids:


Porsche track car (1st in Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2011)

BMW track car (6th in Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2007)

BMW fun car (8th in Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2011)



Can you draw any conclusions out of it?

[GoingTooFast]

Finally, putting all into perpective we have the M3's 6th place overall (not much better than the 1M) in Best Driver’s Car 2007 competition when Chris Harris still was in Autocar (now EVO):

This week’s Autocar magazine is an unmissable one; it’s our annual Best Handling Car issue. We've taken the 10 best driver’s cars of 2007 and pitted them against each other on a 1.41-mile dry track, a twisty 0.77-mile wet track and on the road; it’s the most comprehensive performance group test Autocar has ever produced. And the winner might just surprise you.

BMW’s new M3, the Lotus 2-Eleven, Porsche's 911 GT3 RS and Lamborghini's LP640 were all part of the three-day speed fest, held at and around MotorSport Vision’s Bedford Autodrome circuit. Also tested were Porsche’s Cayman S, Renault’s Megane R26, Mercedes' SLK55 AMG Black Series and a Mercedes C350 Sport. A Ford Mondeo 2.5T was even in the hunt; see our gallery for pictures of the runners.

Audi’s excellent R8 ended up beating all-comers to the honours, with its combination of an excellent chassis, incredible traction in all weather, and fine everday usability. For the full breakdown of figures, get Autocar magazine, out today.

1th R8

• Dry: 1.04.1s - 127.6mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 51.95s - 83.2mph (max. speed)

2th 911 GT3 RS

• Dry: 1.03.6s - 129.5mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 52.75s - 84.6mph (max. speed)

3th Lotus 2-Eleven

• Dry: 1.02.75s - 125mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 53.90s - 81.8mph (max. speed)

4th Cayman S

• Dry: 1.08.1s - 113.4mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 55.35s - 79mph (max. speed)

5th LP640

• Dry: 1.03.8s - 136.8mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 53.25s - 85.8mph (max. speed)

6th M3

• Dry: 1.07.10s - 126.2mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 54.50s - 79.2mph (max. speed)

7th Megane R26

• Dry: 1.10.45s - 110.2mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 55.65s - 76.5mph (max. speed)

8th C350

• Dry: 1.12.45s - 113.1mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 57.80s - 73.7mph (max. speed)

9th Mondeo 2.5T

• Dry: 1.15.40s - 106.5mph (max. speed)
• Wet: NA

10th Slk 55

• Dry: 1.06.6s - 127mph (max. speed)
• Wet: 57.60s - 77.6mph (max. speed)