Who Here Has Trouble Free Driving With Their 1er???

[ejm3]

At the end of the day the many competing theories around fluid changes come up frequently for BMW's because of the 4-year free maintanence plan that most manufacturers don't offer.

Its highly likely that if you were footing the bill the interval for an oil change would never have been 15k miles. But does that mean 15k is the really the optimal number? Or are other car companies (where you pay for the oil changes) being conservative to increase service revenue and get you into the dealership more often?

And who says I'm ignoring the other parts of my car?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by hlmiii

But, respectfully - what is the evidence for this? In over eleven years of BMW ownership consisting of ten cars, model years 1988 - current, I have seen NO factual basis of ANY reduction in drivetrain and/or engine lifespan/reliability/service.

"Talk" and "experience" and "consensus" and "concern" are useful and valuable in many respects. They are NOT recorded facts, service data and evidence.

I do not follow the 12-month, 15,000 intervals. I don't like them!
But I have NO evidence that changing oil religiously every 5,000 - 7,500 mile will help my fleet.

It's just that I am not comfortable with longer intervals. I just feel more confident and think that that shorter intervals would be better for my cars, based mainly upon many years of ownership prior to BMW.

As I said, chatting with multiple techs over the years and the word of Mike Miller, BMW maintenance god extraordinaire.

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Why the assumption that we would neglect bushings and such? It's common knowledge that anyone who has any interest in seeing high mileage in their BMW changes the cooling system every 80k.

It's laughable that you're arguing for 5K oil changes, but think 80K for coolant is just peachy. And I'm assuming nothing - there's simply nobody posting about doing any other maintenance at more frequent intervals.

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

So just to be clear, you don't find it odd in the slightest that BMW overnight switched from 30k trans and diff fluid changes to lifetime, 5k oil change intervals or less to 15k, and 1200 mile full break in fluid swap to none? Fluids magically became near perfect overnight when it was on BMWs dime?

At some point, the engine in my BMW went from being an iron block to a Nikasil-lined magnesium/aluminum alloy. They also built a plant in Spartansburg, to which they started delivering engines that had been pre-run-in in Germany. They did these (and many other) things so they could reasonably offer free maintenance under the warranty - something other manufacturers gave up on.

There's this culture today, where everything needs to be proven to each individual, so everyone becomes an armchair expert in engineering, medical science, politics, and so on. This results in the idiots who think the steel structure of the World Trade Center should have held-up, because it never actually reached a temperature of complete liquification.

It's perfectly OK for you to disagree with me. In fact, you seem to be surrounded by people who are offering you "evidence" to support your argument. However, I have a different set of facts and reasons for feeling the way I do, and it isn't OK to convince everyone I'm ignorant or stupid. I should also note that for the past 10 years, I've had nothing but free maintenance performed on the 3 BMWs I've owned, so I have a different world view than you.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by five_timer

It's laughable that you're arguing for 5K oil changes, but think 80K for coolant is just peachy. And I'm assuming nothing - there's simply nobody posting about doing any other maintenance at more frequent intervals.

It's like you are being intentionally obtuse. No one said 80k for coolant, just like no one said ignore all the bushings for more frequent oil changes.

Slow down and read what people actually wrote, or don't bother responding at all.

[hlmiii]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

As I said, chatting with multiple techs over the years and the word of Mike Miller, BMW maintenance god extraordinaire.

Yep. And as I've said, that's chatting. Even Miller effectively says as much - he continues to verify that BMW engines are quite long-lived even through the Four Year Maintenance generations.

"old school" was definitely valid and necessary for decades. Hardware, software and fluids are far different today.

So others have focused on evidence. And I think they are correct in both the request for demonstrable problems, and the lack of such reports. This, even though it doesn't "feel" like it should be okay.

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

It's like you are being intentionally obtuse. No one said 80k for coolant, just like no one said ignore all the bushings for more frequent oil changes.

We're talking about fluids and lubes, and then you say "cooling system", by which I now see meant "water pump", which is a part, not a procedure. None of this matters.

You're making strawman arguments. Show me a post where I claimed anyone said "ignore all the bushings". There isn't one. Here's what I did say - that nobody is posting about doing other important maintenance procedures more often than recommended, only OCIs. And I maintain that people are just doing the frequent oil changes to make themselves feel better.

If you look at an old-school engine with poor tolerances and seals, and 4 quarts of dinosaur-based oil; compared to one with not even a dipstick, how can you reasonably say that a highly engineered, full synthetic system can't do several times the miles? In the end, my relatively gentle driving compared to you lead-footers will win out anyway. So enjoy your maintenance.

[JimD]

five_timer,

Since you have only had free maintenance it seems you probably trade your cars in when they get at or near the end of the warranty. Nothing wrong with that. For that situation, even Mike Miller will not suggest you will personally gain anything from more maintenance. The car is going to last through the warranty period regardless. The question is what happens after ~100k miles. With the "old school" maintenance schedule, we are hoping our cars will still be going strong. We are worried with 15K oil service intervals they might not be. If you trade it in at 50K miles it is somebody else's problem.

Your point about lubricants is good. The conservative interval for non-synthetics is 3K miles, however. There are some good things about modern engines relative to oil changes, like better ring to cylinder sealing to prevent diluting the oil with blow by and better air fuel mixture to avoid raw fuel in the chamber but not everything is good. I am concerned my electronic oil level sensor doesn't work, I would be happier with a dipstick. I am also pretty sure my silicon aluminum cylinder walls are more senstive to lubrication than a cast iron block or liner would be. I don't think there is a credible argument that BMW made their engines enough better they could triple the oil change interval. I think there is a much better chance that the old 5K interval was conservative and the new 15K interval is not nearly as conservative. The most obvious reason for the change is economic. That doesn't make BMW evil.

With respect to other intervals, when we mention the old school maintenance that includes other lubricants and coolant and brake fluid. So many of us are saying we change what BMW says doesn't need changed and/or change it more frequently (like BMW previously recommended).

Jim

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by JimD

five_timer,

Since you have only had free maintenance it seems you probably trade your cars in when they get at or near the end of the warranty. Nothing wrong with that. For that situation, even Mike Miller will not suggest you will personally gain anything from more maintenance. The car is going to last through the warranty period regardless. The question is what happens after ~100k miles. With the "old school" maintenance schedule, we are hoping our cars will still be going strong. We are worried with 15K oil service intervals they might not be. If you trade it in at 50K miles it is somebody else's problem.

Your point about lubricants is good. The conservative interval for non-synthetics is 3K miles, however. There are some good things about modern engines relative to oil changes, like better ring to cylinder sealing to prevent diluting the oil with blow by and better air fuel mixture to avoid raw fuel in the chamber but not everything is good. I am concerned my electronic oil level sensor doesn't work, I would be happier with a dipstick. I am also pretty sure my silicon aluminum cylinder walls are more senstive to lubrication than a cast iron block or liner would be. I don't think there is a credible argument that BMW made their engines enough better they could triple the oil change interval. I think there is a much better chance that the old 5K interval was conservative and the new 15K interval is not nearly as conservative. The most obvious reason for the change is economic. That doesn't make BMW evil.

With respect to other intervals, when we mention the old school maintenance that includes other lubricants and coolant and brake fluid. So many of us are saying we change what BMW says doesn't need changed and/or change it more frequently (like BMW previously recommended).

Jim

I understand that I don't have (recent) personal experience with a BMW engine at well over 100K miles, and if I did, it wouldn't be any more pertinent than anyone else's singular experience. My observation is that, on the whole, BMWs with 200K miles or more are as common as other makes. And additionally, that BMW (unlike Saab or Audi) is not widely known for being bad choices as used cars. Expensive, yes - as any European make would be.

Regarding "old-school" maintenance, for years the standard owners' manuals said 7,500 miles (and the cautious would halve that). With BMW's high oil capacity, lined cylinders, and full synthetic formula, it doubled to 15K.

Not sure if people are getting diff lubes, wheel bearing service, or steering/suspension servicing more often than recommended, but I think not.

[ejm3]

This assumption that BMW over-engineers their cars as much as some people here think such that oil lasts 15k miles and some other fluids "forever" is laughable.

If BMW was that good its cars would last forever or at least be ranked above the Japanese cars in terms of reliablity. But they aren't and these cars break all the time for a variety of reasons. So thet tells me despite all the modern "superior" improvements that have been made, their engineers aren't perfect.

All cars are better than they were 20 years ago and the days of the 3000 mile oil change are gone.

But if I plan on keeping my car over the long haul (maybe, maybe not but I at least want to have the option) I will continue to do maintanence at what I deem to be reasonable intervals even if it costs me a few bucks.

Also going back to my posting earlier the tech I spoke with who drove a 135i said he changes his oil every 5k miles. Thats not some service advisor spouting the company line, thats a guy who actually owns his own car. In other words, BMW says 15k is fine for YOUR car but its own techs change their oil more frequently in their personal BMW's. What does that tell you?

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by ejm3

Also going back to my posting earlier the tech I spoke with who drove a 135i said he changes his oil every 5k miles. Thats not some service advisor spouting the company line, thats a guy who actually owns his own car. In other words, BMW says 15k is fine for YOUR car but its own techs change their oil more frequently in their personal BMW's. What does that tell you?

It tells me that you do not understand how the scientific method works. And by the way, if I was a BMW technician, and drove my car to the service garage everyday and had access to all the service equipment, you'd better damn well believe that I TOO would change my oil about every month. Why not?

[Walter K]

2010 128i coming up on 40k averaging 26 mpg. No issues here besides the rattling arm rest; so I just rest my arm on it...problem fixed hahaha

[WyattHerb]

2008 135i
82,000 miles
HPFP replaced once
Driver side tail LED out
Just now having the water pump replaced.
Otherwise problem free.

[Marc08EX]

Originally Posted by WyattHerb

2008 135i
82,000 miles
HPFP replaced once
Driver side tail LED out
Just now having the water pump replaced.
Otherwise problem free.

Very good to hear this!!!!

Do you have extended warranty?

[ejm3]

Originally Posted by five_timer

It tells me that you do not understand how the scientific method works.

This is hilarious since I work at a company that makes jet engines that we all fly on every day.
And by the way when we have a failure it's on the front pages of newspapers around the world, so it happens remarkably infrequently.

And also those engines need to be maintained, which we also do. So we do plenty of research on exactly when things need to be replaced.

[Iron Man]

Obviously, it appears no one here is going to win this argument. Like i said earlier, if you really want to be scientific about it, you need to do an oil analysis to check how your oil is actually degrading. BMW can say 15,000 miles, but I still find it very suspect that they just recently changed the recommended interval to 10,000. Did they just under-engineer their cars, since they were previously engineered to go 15,000?

One thing for sure though oil is the lifeblood of your engine. You keep it well maintained, and your engine will last a long time. It is good insurance to change it often. How often that actually is, as we all know, depends on the person.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by five_timer

With BMW's high oil capacity, lined cylinders, and full synthetic formula, it doubled to 15K.

Why do you think their choice of cylinder liners has anything to do with BMW's OCI? High oil capacity and use of full synthetic oil, I would agree with 100%. Cylinder liner choice, not so much.

[tnt2671]

imho oils easy enough to change in these cars , so for what little it costs i'll lean towards the traditional method , and every 3rd will be on them , why not , it's certainly not going to hurt.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by five_timer

We're talking about fluids and lubes, and then you say "cooling system", by which I now see meant "water pump", which is a part, not a procedure. None of this matters.

By cooling system I meant the cooling system. This isn't some nebulous term that needs to be interpreted. This means radiator, water pump, hoses, expansion tank, tstat, and so on. Water pump on the 1ers seems to be something that needs addressed at twice the normal interval of 80k for other cooling system items.

I'm going to guess you never have had any long term BMWs.

Originally Posted by five_timer

You're making strawman arguments. Show me a post where I claimed anyone said "ignore all the bushings". There isn't one. Here's what I did say - that nobody is posting about doing other important maintenance procedures more often than recommended, only OCIs. And I maintain that people are just doing the frequent oil changes to make themselves feel better.

That's because fluid intervals magically changed when BMW started covering them. Since they don't cover preventative maintenance on bushings and such, and the intervals remain unchanged, why would that apply to this discussion?

[dcaron9999]

Back to thread topic ...
2011 135i M-sport, 6MT with 30,000 Miles:

1. Battery cable recall.
2. Differential input shaft seal leak (differential housing wet).
3. Evaporator replacement (Weak A/C diagnosis lead to slight evap leak).
4. Radio replacement (High pitched digital noise coming from speakers whens doors are opened or closed. Problem unsolved and ongoing).

[JimD]

BMW coats the cylinder bores of the n52 with Alusil. Some might call that a liner but I think it is more of a coating. It is supposed to be hard and hold oil well. But I guess I am "old school" and prefer a cast iron shrunk in liner - like the n54 has. I don't think a silicon/aluminum Alusil coating makes the n52 need less frequent oil changes. I am still a little worried about it from a longevity standpoint but when I found out they had been doing this for awhile I decided it would probably work. But concern over how durable Alusil lined bores are is one of the reasons I do more and not less frequent oil changes.

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by ejm3

This is hilarious since I work at a company that makes jet engines that we all fly on every day.
And by the way when we have a failure it's on the front pages of newspapers around the world, so it happens remarkably infrequently.

And also those engines need to be maintained, which we also do. So we do plenty of research on exactly when things need to be replaced.

Then you would know that relying on the hearsay of a single mechanic is not how things are proven.

[five_timer]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I'm going to guess you never have had any long term BMWs.

And you'd be wrong, so don't guess. Had 150K on my first one.

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

That's because fluid intervals magically changed when BMW started covering them.

Again, no. The change in intervals (and the covering of them) coincided with a new line of engines. No magic.

And yes, it's not just a coincidence that BMW only offered free maintenance after introducing the longer OCI engines, as it wouldn't make business sense to have each owner come in every 5K to 7.5K for servicing.