1M Coupe Weighs in at 3,351 Pounds With Full Tank of Gas

[skyphab]

Originally Posted by Canexican

But its still not what I would consider a real M car.

Make yourself comfortable with change and accept it. My guess is that within 2-3 years range the cars that you call "real M" will disappear. Of course there will always be poeple who own that kind of cars, but we're talking about new cars here.

Of course you can stay with "real M" cars, they will just be the old ones. I'm not saying that's bad, it's similar to people who do like oldtimers and it's fine with me, but it's the mass and the young ones that will go for new cars and new trends. And the M GmbH needs that change, no matter what you define as a "real M".

[1Mer]

Originally Posted by skyphab

Make yourself comfortable with change and accept it. My guess is that within 2-3 years range the cars that you call "real M" will disappear. Of course there will always be poeple who own that kind of cars, but we're talking about new cars here.

+1

I predict that ALL future M cars will have Turbo's

[pride355]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

They must have forgotten to tell that to the folks who publish the specs on BMWUSA web site:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

Unladen weight
3704 lbs

That is EU unladen weight for M-DKG M3.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by pride355

That is EU unladen weight for M-DKG M3.

I figured someone who didn't know what they were talking about would dismiss it.

I don't believe you. Why not?

1. BMW posted the number, in POUNDS, on the BMWUSA web site.
2. The number DOES NOT MATCH the posted EU weight on the BMW.co.uk web site.

[Canexican]

Originally Posted by formula M

Your entire post is at odds with itself.

First, the 1M Coupe is a back to handling M, not an overpowered dragster...

Secondly, the engine in the M coupe is robust and gets nearly 30mpg.. and has already shown to be within split seconds of the M3, but what you cannot understand, or put your head around is that BMW will offer upgrades for the 1M, for people who need more.

That is why the price is just right & if you want more, then you simple put your money where your mouth is. Not complain.


That way..^^, BMW skirts the cafe standard and those people who want more HORSEPOWER (not performance), can have it via a "BMW Upgrade". Did u miss the fact that BMW has a secret mapping for the M Coupe thats 457 horsepower..?



Lastly, it seems like your fixated on HP and simply do not take into consideration torque, or the 1M's powerband. We've already been through this (search the forums on hp), you're just upset because the 1M Coupe doesn't have "moAr horsepower" and you're ignorantly complaining about it. But you completely discount the fact, that the M Coupe has considerably more torque, than the M3. So it doesn't need moAr hp in stock form, as this car's focus is handling. Also, 370lb-ft of torque is nothing to laugh at.

So, we don't care that you don't consider the 1M Coupe as an //M car, it's obvious that your criteria is based on bragging rights and bravado (er horsepower). I don't consider the E90 M3 a proper M car either, it has a V8...lol


But your cynical and trolling because you only understand horsepower (ie: drag racing)... right?

My response was arguing M3 Adjuster's opinion that the reason they didn't give the car more power was strictly because of CAFE. I don't believe that to be the case. I feel BMW is short-changing 1M hp due to (as you just stated) near M3 performance. Obviously, I love turbos and am quite aware of the torque. My car makes more torque than hp and its the reason why I murdered a Gallardo this past summer (not trying to gloat, just stating a fact...ok, maybe I'm slightly gloating) on the highway. So, I CAN fully appreciate the torque factor and am not saying it NEEDS an n/a motor.

Here's my beef that I'll re-state: They should have made the N54 a bit more of a screamer - like other M's. They could have done it simply by adding a more aggressive camshaft. As sweet of a motor as the N54 is, it does tend to fall on its face towards 7 grand, which is a biproduct of the small turbos it utilizes. If it had just SOMETHING unique compared to a run-of-the-mill N54, I'd say its worth it. But when you don't change anything about the motor and just offer "BMW performance upgrades" it seems like you are getting short changed.

I'm sure the 1M is a hell of a car. I wouldn't be griping about aspects of it if I didn't have a profound appreciation for it. Everything I'm complaining about is speculative as I have not driven the car, nor have their been any solid performance testing. I'm just saying that from my keyboard perspective and looking at all the facts, I think BMW could have turned what is a really, really, good car into a great car by giving the 1M a more unique motor. The defense rests.

Originally Posted by skyphab

Make yourself comfortable with change and accept it. My guess is that within 2-3 years range the cars that you call "real M" will disappear. Of course there will always be poeple who own that kind of cars, but we're talking about new cars here.

Of course you can stay with "real M" cars, they will just be the old ones. I'm not saying that's bad, it's similar to people who do like oldtimers and it's fine with me, but it's the mass and the young ones that will go for new cars and new trends. And the M GmbH needs that change, no matter what you define as a "real M".

I like obviously like turbos as it makes it that much easier to extract power. Not opposed to that at all.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Canexican

Here's my beef that I'll re-state: They should have made the N54 a bit more of a screamer - like other M's. They could have done it simply by adding a more aggressive camshaft. As sweet of a motor as the N54 is, it does tend to fall on its face towards 7 grand, which is a biproduct of the small turbos it utilizes. If it had just SOMETHING unique compared to a run-of-the-mill N54, I'd say its worth it. But when you don't change anything about the motor and just offer "BMW performance upgrades" it seems like you are getting short changed.

I'm sure the 1M is a hell of a car. I wouldn't be griping about aspects of it if I didn't have a profound appreciation for it. Everything I'm complaining about is speculative as I have not driven the car, nor have their been any solid performance testing. I'm just saying that from my keyboard perspective and looking at all the facts, I think BMW could have turned what is a really, really, good car into a great car by giving the 1M a more unique motor. The defense rests.



I like obviously like turbos as it makes it that much easier to extract power. Not opposed to that at all.

Formula M is correct that your post it at odds with itself. If BMW didn't tweak the car for all of the available hp it can make with a tune, then how would adding a cam to it make it pass the same emissions bar? Or... since you do feel that BMW is somehow protecting the M3, then I guess you answered your own question of why they didn't put a cam in it...

We all perfectly understand that you want MORE POWER AND A UNIQUE MOTOR, but it's pretty clear WHY those items were not done, despite your continued complaints. The car isn't even going to be made for a full year... Why would they go to the expense of designing a new cam for it? Would adding a cam give the car a hp number that would make you happy? Likely NOT, because you would still be making ridiculous comments about BMW trying to protect the M3 unless they brought the car to market with the same figures that a Dinan or Vishnu or Cobb tune would make).

The reason that the motor doesn't meet your requirements is a great deal more likely to be due to emissions and/or corporate fuel economy issues than protecting the bloated E9x M3. Note that emissions and fuel economy are two SEPARATE concerns, but both are going to be affected adversely when extracting more power, not to mention of course, reliability. Also note that I used emissions as merely ONE example (of which there are MANY) of why the 1M is rated as it is. I am in no way saying it is the ONLY reason.. there are a NUMBER of reasons why the 1M is just as it is..

Emissions
Fuel economy
Design expenses (which would translate to a higher base price)
short product life
Reliability

Etc.

Maybe you should quit while you are behind and actually DRIVE the car when it comes out Unlike you, I'm not driving a keyboard and speculating. I am telling you from personal experience that it ALREADY IS A REALLY GREAT CAR. Showing 350 hp, or 370 hp figure on a piece of paper isn't going to make this car radically different than the 335 hp that it currently has. Once the car is out in people's hands, this nonsense about unique motor will be as passe' as it is with the E36. That car didn't have the full spec of the Euro model, no invididual throttle bodies here in the US and it sold like hotcakes and is just as classic an M car in the US as any other M car. The same is true for the 1M. It's absolutely AWESOME with the power it has, and once you have driven it, perhaps it will make a little more sense and you'll agree BMW has built an incredible car, that can be tweaked for *serious* power either in the aftermarket, or via upgrades that BMW will sell, and BMW also came through as much as possible on being able to bring the car to market as inexpensively as possible.

If you want more power from a 1M, buy the car and add a tune to it. Just like you did with your Evo. If you're upset that the motor isn't as unique as it could be then take a pass and perhaps wait for an F20 1M in 2014 or something.

Well.. after visiting your races showing your AWD jack rabbit starts in eigth mile drags vs American Iron, as well as the DSM video, I now understand all.

[Canexican]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Formula M is correct that your post it at odds with itself. If BMW didn't tweak the car for all of the available hp it can make with a tune, then how would adding a cam to it make it pass the same emissions bar? Or... since you do feel that BMW is somehow protecting the M3, then I guess you answered your own question of why they didn't put a cam in it...

We all perfectly understand that you want MORE POWER AND A UNIQUE MOTOR, but it's pretty clear WHY those items were not done, despite your continued complaints. The car isn't even going to be made for a full year... Why would they go to the expense of designing a new cam for it? Would adding a cam give the car a hp number that would make you happy? Likely NOT, because you would still be making ridiculous comments about BMW trying to protect the M3 unless they brought the car to market with the same figures that a Dinan or Vishnu or Cobb tune would make).

The reason that the motor doesn't meet your requirements is a great deal more likely to be due to emissions and/or corporate fuel economy issues than protecting the bloated E9x M3. Note that emissions and fuel economy are two SEPARATE concerns, but both are going to be affected adversely when extracting more power, not to mention of course, reliability. Also note that I used emissions as merely ONE example (of which there are MANY) of why the 1M is rated as it is. I am in no way saying it is the ONLY reason.. there are a NUMBER of reasons why the 1M is just as it is..

Emissions
Fuel economy
Design expenses (which would translate to a higher base price)
short product life
Reliability

Etc.

Maybe you should quit while you are behind and actually DRIVE the car when it comes out Unlike you, I'm not driving a keyboard and speculating. I am telling you from personal experience that it ALREADY IS A REALLY GREAT CAR. Showing 350 hp, or 370 hp figure on a piece of paper isn't going to make this car radically different than the 335 hp that it currently has. Once the car is out in people's hands, this nonsense about unique motor will be as passe' as it is with the E36. That car didn't have the full spec of the Euro model, no invididual throttle bodies here in the US and it sold like hotcakes and is just as classic an M car in the US as any other M car. The same is true for the 1M. It's absolutely AWESOME with the power it has, and once you have driven it, perhaps it will make a little more sense and you'll agree BMW has built an incredible car, that can be tweaked for *serious* power either in the aftermarket, or via upgrades that BMW will sell, and BMW also came through as much as possible on being able to bring the car to market as inexpensively as possible.

If you want more power from a 1M, buy the car and add a tune to it. Just like you did with your Evo. If you're upset that the motor isn't as unique as it could be then take a pass and perhaps wait for an F20 1M in 2014 or something.

Well.. after visiting your races showing your AWD jack rabbit starts in eigth mile drags vs American Iron, as well as the DSM video, I now understand all.

"a great deal more likely" is the phrase of the day. Its all speculative. Thats the fun of a forum. Based on everything you have presented and a few things that I wasn't initially aware of (didn't realize it was such a limited run vehicle nor did I know that BMW was coming out with ECU/tune upgrades), I'd say that it could be about emissions as much as it is about power. Like we've both said, they go hand in hand.

The aspect of both of our arguments, that neither of us really know about (unless you are a BMW engineer), is how much the hypothetical oem upgrades that I desire from the N54 would actually affect the overall emissions, mpg, and CAFE. You assume BMW could not have given the 1M more power without significantly adversely affecting said efficiency and cost. I think they could have figured it out if they wanted to, but they had probably already done enough market research to realize that there were enough prospective 1M owners that wouldn't care - I do, to a point.

I'm not saying I'd never buy the car. Just disappointed with where they left the motor. I'm fully aware of what can be done to the N54, which is why I like the platform, but its lack of uniqueness bugs me. Just out of curiosity, when/where did you drive the car? I'd love to hear about it.

Lastly, not sure what you think you understand about me based solely by watching a few drag racing videos that I've posted on Youtube, but if you think that is all I've ever done with my car or that drag racing is all I understand about the dynamics of a vehicle - you clearly don't know me at all.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Canexican

Just out of curiosity, when/where did you drive the car? I'd love to hear about it.

M3 Adjuster was among the lucky/privileged ones to have been selected to go to prototype drive event in Germany last November. Read his writeup and other very meaningful contributions he has made to this board. He is one of very few people that can opine on this platform from beyond just typing behind the keyboard. IIRC he is an instructor and has significant track experience, so hearing his praise of what was still a very much prorotype mule at the time was all I needed to hear that BMW M did its job given all the constraints it was facing (time/budgetary/environmental, etc.).

[marcel b]

Originally Posted by ///M1

M3 Adjuster was among the lucky/privileged ones to have been selected to go to prototype drive event in Germany last November. Read his writeup and other very meaningful contributions he has made to this board. He is one of very few people that can opine on this platform from beyond just typing behind the keyboard. IIRC he is an instructor and has significant track experience, so hearing his praise of what was still a very much prorotype mule at the time was all I needed to hear that BMW M did its job given all the constraints it was facing (time/budgetary/environmental, etc.).

+1

[Canexican]

Very cool. Good review. Looking forward to when the actual performances numbers come out on this thing.

[skyphab]

What I don't understand is, why people focus so much on the engine and the engine only.
A non-special car with a great engine can make a great car, why do people not believe it can be the other way around?

Perhaps it's the missing revolution from the 135 that current owners of a 135 criticize, but there's an easy solution to that problem: Don't by an 1M. It's as easy as that.

I think all other people (including me) will see a very good package in the 1M. Perhaps not with a unique engine, but I do expect a great handling, and I'm pretty sure I won't be disappointed.

I have the feeling that many 135 owners would love to have an 1M, but it just doesn't legitimate the extra charge for them, because it lacks of horse power or whatever. But instead they're saying "it's not a considerable upgrade for me" they talk badly about the car, hoping to convince themselves that they don't have to buy one.

That's just my impression. Coming from my MK5 GTI it's a great update and I think I'm directly in BMW's target group. The 135 wasn't for me, but the 1M is! But if I would have been a 135 owner already, I also wouldn't go for the 1M. Sure thing for me. Just make up your mind.

[Canexican]

Originally Posted by skyphab

What I don't understand is, why people focus so much on the engine and the engine only.
A non-special car with a great engine can make a great car, why do people not believe it can be the other way around?

Perhaps it's the missing revolution from the 135 that current owners of a 135 criticize, but there's an easy solution to that problem: Don't by an 1M. It's as easy as that.

I think all other people (including me) will see a very good package in the 1M. Perhaps not with a unique engine, but I do expect a great handling, and I'm pretty sure I won't be disappointed.

I have the feeling that many 135 owners would love to have an 1M, but it just doesn't legitimate the extra charge for them, because it lacks of horse power or whatever. But instead they're saying "it's not a considerable upgrade for me" they talk badly about the car, hoping to convince themselves that they don't have to buy one.

That's just my impression. Coming from my MK5 GTI it's a great update and I think I'm directly in BMW's target group. The 135 wasn't for me, but the 1M is! But if I would have been a 135 owner already, I also wouldn't go for the 1M. Sure thing for me. Just make up your mind.

It comes from what I mentioned earlier about what all other BMW M cars have been known for: their engines. Sure, the handling and chassis have always been great as well, but the unique, high-revving, race-car like engines have always been a focal point because they are awesome and unlike anything else in the line-up (or like any other brand).

Sure, times have changed and the fact of the matter is that todays modern vehicles are too big and portly to have small displacement, high-revving, n/a engines without significantly hurting efficiency. Not having torque also kinda sucks.

Turbos are the replacement for displacement and the replacement for BMW's M engines of old. Thats cool. But I still think the motor should be unique to the car. It adds value to the vehicle as well as the marque. I guarantee you that if BMW put the N54 (or a revised version of it with bigger turbos) in the next gen M3, people would be pissed. The one 1M should have been a little different, regardless of how good it already is with just a revised chassis and suspension. Ok, i'll stop about it now. But seriously, are my complaints really that off base? Does no one else feel this way?

[marcel b]

would you bought it with a unique engine but costing 5k more?

[skyphab]

Originally Posted by marcel b

would you bought it with a unique engine but costing 5k more?

I'm sure some people would. But it's not about the 2 people that perhaps would, it's about the 5 people that definitely won't.

We really have to keep in mind what M tries to achieve with this car. It's not the next all time M-classic they want to produce, it's a new step into a new terrain with different customers and different price tags.

Originally Posted by Canexican

It comes from what I mentioned earlier about what all other BMW M cars have been known for: their engines. Sure, the handling and chassis have always been great as well, but the unique, high-revving, race-car like engines have always been a focal point because they are awesome and unlike anything else in the line-up (or like any other brand).

Sure, times have changed and the fact of the matter is that todays modern vehicles are too big and portly to have small displacement, high-revving, n/a engines without significantly hurting efficiency. Not having torque also kinda sucks.

Turbos are the replacement for displacement and the replacement for BMW's M engines of old. Thats cool. But I still think the motor should be unique to the car. It adds value to the vehicle as well as the marque. I guarantee you that if BMW put the N54 (or a revised version of it with bigger turbos) in the next gen M3, people would be pissed. The one 1M should have been a little different, regardless of how good it already is with just a revised chassis and suspension. Ok, i'll stop about it now. But seriously, are my complaints really that off base? Does no one else feel this way?

You're right, but speaking of the 1M, an exclusive engine makes not much sense. Of course it would be great, but it doesn't fit the segment and it doesn't fit the price.

An 1M with a high-rev engine would have been some kind of uber-car, but it would have had the same price tag as a M3, and that would have destroyed the whole idea from the beginning.

But since we're talking of great engines and high-rev concepts, what makes a great engine anyway? I think the N54 IS already a great engine, but perhaps M could have done a little bit more to it. But then again, they modified it for the Z4 35 already, what do we want more?

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Canexican

It comes from what I mentioned earlier about what all other BMW M cars have been known for: their engines. Sure, the handling and chassis have always been great as well, but the unique, high-revving, race-car like engines have always been a focal point because they are awesome and unlike anything else in the line-up (or like any other brand).

Sure, times have changed and the fact of the matter is that todays modern vehicles are too big and portly to have small displacement, high-revving, n/a engines without significantly hurting efficiency. Not having torque also kinda sucks.

Turbos are the replacement for displacement and the replacement for BMW's M engines of old. Thats cool. But I still think the motor should be unique to the car. It adds value to the vehicle as well as the marque. I guarantee you that if BMW put the N54 (or a revised version of it with bigger turbos) in the next gen M3, people would be pissed. The one 1M should have been a little different, regardless of how good it already is with just a revised chassis and suspension. Ok, i'll stop about it now. But seriously, are my complaints really that off base? Does no one else feel this way?

You have to keep things in perspective. Once approved by the BMW Board, the M Division had exactly 12 months (Dec 2009-Dec 2010) to develop this car. Add on top of that very stringent budgetary, environmental, timing, supplier, and a whole host of other constraints. Can we add a laundry list of things that we all "hoped for" in this car, yeah (CF roof, more colors, DCT, less weight, insert whatever else rocks your boat including what the trim around the rear passenger side trunk mats should have been!) I think when you factor all that in, they did the max they could in delivering a car that still has most if not all the ///M Pedigree.

Now, if this were the new M3, where they had 8yrs to think about its development and delivered something less worthy of the ///M, then it is a valid criticism.

Let's not forget that from what is being disclosed, the Z4is was initially planned as an ///M variant, with the M Division being involved throughout. That idea was later scrapped.

Let me ask you this: if you had it the other way around: 1///M engine developed first, then 'thrown' into the Z4 to make it an "IS", would you have a differentl opinion? People get too caught up in this whole "Oh, this powerplant can be found in a regular road going BMW". The N54 is proven to be good, so nothing wrong with sticking with what you know is good!

[sho-one]

Umm I love the car, kinda bummed the car's engine is not special even though some posters swore up and down it was, still have my deposit and can't wait to buy it.

With that said...wasn't this topic about the 1m's weight?

[sho-one]

Btw if they ever change their mind and shoehorn a s65 into a z4 and bring back the z4m, I will definitely be all over that.

Lol my bad, back to the original topic

[///M1]

Originally Posted by sho-one

With that said...wasn't this topic about the 1m's weight?

LOL It is! But we can't even get an agreement on that! BMW's own published figures/literature is all over the place!

And it doesn't help when underinformed journalists keep on throwing statements like "The 1///M is 400 lbs lighter tha the M3"

[blueshark]

The N54 is a very good combination of drivability, economy, midrange power, moderate weight and muscle. And, by now it's pretty well debugged. I like the choice.

[Canexican]

Originally Posted by ///M1

Let me ask you this: if you had it the other way around: 1///M engine developed first, then 'thrown' into the Z4 to make it an "IS", would you have a differentl opinion? People get too caught up in this whole "Oh, this powerplant can be found in a regular road going BMW". The N54 is proven to be good, so nothing wrong with sticking with what you know is good!

I agree that it is a good powerplant, but when you start to throw the same motor around varying platforms...well, then you get yourself an AMG, not an M.

Given what you said about time and budget though, I will say they did a good job with such a limited amount of time/money. I just hope that future M vehicles will have greater complexities in their motors than their more, "generic", counterparts.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ///M1

LOL It is! But we can't even get an agreement on that! BMW's own published figures/literature is all over the place!

And it doesn't help when underinformed journalists keep on throwing statements like "The 1///M is 400 lbs lighter tha the M3"

Well based on the weights from BMW USA website for the m3 and 1m showing 400 lbs difference, let's not shoot the journalist messenger.