track pads

[redrum36]

I'm getting car ready for it's first track day. what pads are you using? i used hawk DTC70 on my e46 M3 with stoptechs and 60's in the rear with stock calpiers. I am probably going hawk 70 or 60 but thought I would get some input. I have done about 130-140 track days so not exactly novice.
If you have opinions, send them along.
thnx
d

[Ruffan]

Redrum, I use the same pads on my Dinan 135i on the track and find they are wonderful with the stock brakes. I purchased (slightly used) a second set of stock front rotors which I swap on for track days so that they are matched to the Hawk DTC pads and I don't have to re-bed every time. My setup is:

Stock Calipers
Hawk DTC 70 front / DTC 60 rear pads
Track-specific set of stock front rotors
TiSpeed Titanium backing plates
ATE Super Blue Dot 4 fluid

I find the DTC pads allow for good modulation and obviously have significantly increased thermal capacity as compared to non-race pads. The biggest issue BY FAR with the 135 brakes is heat. There is very poor cooling due to the lack of air flow through the tight front end. I added the titanium backing plates as additional insurance against fluid boil, but it likely has the effect of keeping the pads slightly hotter. I drove maybe 8 track days last season with this setup and experienced no fade or fluid boiling, so i'm keeping it the same this year.

The second biggest issue with the stock brakes is that the front calipers don't allow for quick swapping of pads. Not a huge issue, but taking the calipers off just adds a bit more time/work. I take this opportunity to swap rotors as it's only one addiitonal hex bolt.

Happy driving.

[redrum36]

I was wondering about those fronmt calipers. It looked like you would have to remove it completely as opposed to the Stoptechs where you just take off one peice and too retainers bolts. Did you revoe the dust covers to put in cooling ducts? I saw a DIY and it looked a little gruesome because the ducts come out of the bottom panel then go back up to the plate behind the hub. Looks like they would get knocked around on the street. I'm thinking that remoing the plates might help. I need to look at this more.
Glad I found someone with some good track info. What about suspension and other things? I switched my strut hats on the e46 which allowed me to get about 3 degrees of camber for free! I took a brief look on the 135 and the geometry looks a lot different. DO you know if this can be done? Otherwise I will but Vorslag plates. I never adjust them because it can affect the other geometry like toe, etc. I leave mine set for the track. I also plan on getting an e93 M3 front sway.
1st event is coming and it is 3 days at Blackhawk. It is a short track and hard on brakes. Lots trees and things too! I still have almost 2 months to prepare and may find track time before then. This is the longest period I have had without trak time in about7 years!
thnx!

[pixelblue]

don't take out the dust shield. I was told the heat may damage the wheel bearings. what you can do is bend the dust shield instead. this will allow more air to circulate around the rotors. only problem is you won't get a perfect bend because of the control arm but what I am planning to do is to use my dremmel and cut around the control arm so I can get a perfect bend where air can rush through. it's a cheap way of getting some extra cooling in there. I will post some pics when I get to do this next week.

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

don't take out the dust shield. I was told the heat may damage the wheel bearings. what you can do is bend the dust shield instead. this will allow more air to circulate around the rotors. only problem is you won't get a perfect bend because of the control arm but what I am planning to do is to use my dremmel and cut around the control arm so I can get a perfect bend where air can rush through. it's a cheap way of getting some extra cooling in there. I will post some pics when I get to do this next week.

I bend my plates also for Track days.. as pixie said I wouldnt remove them entirely, they do have a purpose in life.

my dilema, is do i bend them out and back every track day, or do i leave them bent all the time..

leaving them bent all the time makes the rotor / pad susetiable to increased water when driving normally in the rain, along with stones and small debris etc etc etc .. ( not a good thing IMHO )

to tell you the truth, for us "weekend warriors" we really need a backing plate with a NACA duct built into it that sticks out into the air stream..( and avoids the control arm ) then on non track days we can install some sort of plate to cover the NACA duct and restore the "original" design... Although dedicated brake duct hose and modified plates is the way too go, i just think its too far for weekend warrior guys like us with or Daily driver...

[dsm 335xi]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

Redrum, I use the same pads on my Dinan 135i on the track and find they are wonderful with the stock brakes. I purchased (slightly used) a second set of stock front rotors which I swap on for track days so that they are matched to the Hawk DTC pads and I don't have to re-bed every time. My setup is:

Stock Calipers
Hawk DTC 70 front / DTC 60 rear pads
Track-specific set of stock front rotors
TiSpeed Titanium backing plates
ATE Super Blue Dot 4 fluid

I find the DTC pads allow for good modulation and obviously have significantly increased thermal capacity as compared to non-race pads. The biggest issue BY FAR with the 135 brakes is heat. There is very poor cooling due to the lack of air flow through the tight front end. I added the titanium backing plates as additional insurance against fluid boil, but it likely has the effect of keeping the pads slightly hotter. I drove maybe 8 track days last season with this setup and experienced no fade or fluid boiling, so i'm keeping it the same this year.

The second biggest issue with the stock brakes is that the front calipers don't allow for quick swapping of pads. Not a huge issue, but taking the calipers off just adds a bit more time/work. I take this opportunity to swap rotors as it's only one addiitonal hex bolt.

Happy driving.

How many track days are you expecting to get with a set of DTC 70/60 pads?

[pixelblue]

DriveHard I was thinking about a custom backing plate with ducts too. this is def doable but not sure about how to close the duct. I don't think it would be such a big issue though. I will first try modding the existing backing plate with a dremmel and get a feel for a custom one after I do this. def a good idea, something like the F1 brake ducts

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

DriveHard I was thinking about a custom backing plate with ducts too. this is def doable but not sure about how to close the duct. I don't think it would be such a big issue though. I will first try modding the existing backing plate with a dremmel and get a feel for a custom one after I do this. def a good idea, something like the F1 brake ducts

Yes.. EXACTLY like the F!'s where the duct sticks out... no hoses no nothing, and moves within the suspension..

Being that when i upgraded to BMW BBK i have the old backing plates in my garage, albit a little smaller in diameter i will copy them onto cardboard, cut out the section and fold up some more cardboard to make a duct.. To put an image to it, think of the dryer vent on the outside ot your house.. angled and flanged to rivit or screw to backing plate.. get the idea ??????

[pixelblue]

^ thats exactly what I was thinking too. just have to make sure the angled flanged piece won't interfere with anything when the wheels are turned. mock it up and let me know how it turns out

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

^ thats exactly what I was thinking too. just have to make sure the angled flanged piece won't interfere with anything when the wheels are turned. mock it up and let me know how it turns out

I'll play with the plate tonight.. ill let you know.. I just may get a 135 plate to make it right from the get-go.

[Ruffan]

You guys are onto something, but I'm concerned that there isn't much air flow to capture. DriveHard, I'd love to see what you come up with. With that said, I feel pretty good about my setup and feel like it's working well for the 30 minute max sessions I drive now as I don't experience any fade or boiling.

Redrum, there is plenty of talk on this forum about suspension and camber, but here's my experience. I purchased all of my suspension pieces before I realized that I'd need even more camber to get more rubber up front for track days. I'm using the full Dinan stage 3 suspension which consists of upgraded springs, shocks & struts, front and rear sways and fixed camber plates.

The 1 suspension does allow for a bit of additional camber, but not a ton. There are three bolts at the top of the strut mounting it to the hat. The holes for those bolts are actually oval and allow for some movement. If you get an alignment, have the tech push the top of the struts as far inboard as possible and this will give you maybe an additional half degree of negative camber. The fixed Dinan plates that I use give me another 1 degree or so, so I'm running a total of negative 1.7 degrees up front. If you are interested in putting any tire bigger than 225 up front you'll need to get the Vorshlag plates.

The 135 is ripe for suspension upgrades for the weekend track warrior because the car is actually fairly soft feeling when stock. It handles well, but transitions are slow and turn in isn't as crisp as we'd like. I really noticed a big difference with my upgrade to Dinan shocks which are Koni Yellows (in addition to the other suspension work). The stock shocks are too compromised. Also, another change which is a bit more expensive in terms of labor, but made a big difference on the track is upgrading the subframe bushings and front control arm bushings. The stock bushings are compromised to allow for a comfortable ride on the street. I upgraded to M3 bushings all around which are much firmer and provide for much quicker responses on the track, and honestly don't degrade the street ride much at all.

Just as a note, my first event of the year will be 2 days at Watkins Glen in a week and half with BMWCCA. For some reason I've never been to that track, but for years people have been telling me that I will love it as it's a fast track and clearly the 1 (especially when modified) is a very fast/powerful car.

I'll try to get 3-4 days at Lime Rock this year as well as some time at others such as New Jersey Motorsports Park, BeaverRun, Summit Point and we'll see where else. I also have the privilege of attending BMW Advanced M-school at VIR this year. I can't explain how excited I am to drive at VIR.

[Ruffan]

Also, just so you have it handy, here is the DIY on brake pad swaps for our car:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...=diy+brake+pad

[DriveHard]

[QUOTE=Ruffan;9459508]You guys are onto something, but I'm concerned that there isn't much air flow to capture. DriveHard, I'd love to see what you come up with. With that said, I feel pretty good about my setup and feel like it's working well for the 30 minute max sessions I drive now as I don't experience any fade or boiling.

I dont know about there not being enough.. Both the 135 front bumper and wheel well ( along with a 128 w/ m-sport like mine ) have direct brake ducts into the wheel well area. Of course they end and there is no direct connection to the spindle / backing plate area like a race car with hoses going all over the place, but there is fresh air being blown in there for sure.

One needs to understand that the idea is more for the weekend warrior like Me and Pixie and you... Ive done 4 events with EMRA.. Lime rock 2 weeks ago BTW and Summit point, Pocono, and Lime rock last year.. My first 2 events where on bone stock 128 brakes.. tiny in comparison to 135 pads.. and i had no issues per say... a little too spongy at the end of the day.. but no warpped rotors and pretty decent times too boot. i drove home on them no issues. same as you said 4, 20 min sessions.. 15 to 18 laps each give or take.

i put the BMW BBK on so now i have "135" brakes on my 128 with stock pads... ( i also am about 300 lbs lighter than a 135.. ) i shaved in excess of 2.5 seconds off of my Lime rock time from last year.. I relied on the brakes at the end of the straight alot more than i did the past year and got good results. once again.. no damage, no blueing, no warpping etc etc etc.. I was hitting 110-115 at the end of the straight and braking hard at the 400' marker to turn right at approx 60ish mph to get the double apex correct of Big Ben.

I think with our relatively "stock" cars or those of us that may have "better" pads, ducting like this cant hurt, can only help save our equiptment, and maybe just maybe get those ever so important 10ths to trophy in our class

Ill update as soon as i have a peek under there.. I actually just looked at a few cars in the shop in the air to get a better idea of the room i have to play with. I'm so excited now, that i may stay late and roll up my shirt sleeves tonight...

BTW.. just checked.. Backing plates cost a whopping 20 Bucks !!! cheap enough to cut one up and see


damn.. we thread jacked... ooops .. sorry man..

[Ruffan]

Wow, you put a lot less strain on your brakes than i do. Additional weight, plus I'm over 140 mph at the end of the front straight at Lime rock.

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

Wow, you put a lot less strain on your brakes than i do. Additional weight, plus I'm over 140 mph at the end of the front straight at Lime rock.

lol.. yeah those damn snails under your hood dont hurt...do they but i enjoy the comments / looks when i am asked what i have after i out drove someone.... i love saying its an AUTO 128 !!!!

I usually go with a friend that has a 135.. i'm only like 2 seconds behind him..he just eats me up on the straights, i out brake him and i think i get thru the corners a little better. BTW he Toasted his front rotors ( stock) after the first event at Summit point last year.. WAY hard at the end of the straight and before the hairpin..

smooth is fast that law of physics will never change.

dont get me wrong.. i still got a lot to learn.... little by little.. and if i can save some parts and some $$ on the way, im all for it

Lime Rock Park TT - April 16 2011
Driver: Alex XXXXXXXXXX
Fast lap: 1:08:461 on lap# 13

[pixelblue]

I also think there should be enough air flowing down there to be scooped up for cooling the brakes a bit. obviously not ideal like a direct connection to the back plate but better than what is there now.

DriveHard, I think we need to have a piece fabricated so we can cut and modify. probably something like a 16 gauge aluminum. just have to make sure the holes align and the rest is cutting and riveting pieces together.

let me know if you guys come down to summit point. would love to meet up. I am planning on hitting vir in june. anyone interested should look up trackdaze.com. can't wait

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

I also think there should be enough air flowing down there to be scooped up for cooling the brakes a bit. obviously not ideal like a direct connection to the back plate but better than what is there now.

DriveHard, I think we need to have a piece fabricated so we can cut and modify. probably something like a 16 gauge aluminum. just have to make sure the holes align and the rest is cutting and riveting pieces together.

let me know if you guys come down to summit point. would love to meet up. I am planning on hitting vir in june. anyone interested should look up trackdaze.com. can't wait

the oem Backing plates are some type of galvanized sheet metal.. I plan on getting some from HomeDepot ( 16 gauge should be fine, stiff enough not to flex) then bend into correct shape..

will probable do Summit point with EMRA in November 12/13 . when / who do you go with ???? do you do NJMP ( new Jersey Motorsports Park )

[Ruffan]

Pixel, I'll be at VIR in June for the Advanced M-school. Was at Summit Point last year, but not sure if I'll make it this season. I'll be sure to let you know if I find an event to attend.

DriveHard, hope you didn't take my comment as a knock, your 128 is still a great car. I don't time my laps, so don't know how I compare, but maybe this year I'll do some stopwatch action. I'm also a karter and have to drive those much differently than I drive my 135. Smooth is fast for sure, especially in a momentum car.

[pixelblue]

it may be difficult bending the pieces. if you have a dremmel you can cut the pieces and then assemble and rivet.

normally I go with scca or trackdaze. you should look up trackdaze. they have track events every month along the mid atlantic region. reputable organization. I looked up emra but there wasn't that many events close by. I am interested to try the NJ motorsport park too. hopefully later on this season.

btw, by the sounds of it, your friend is a mad driver. he posted a very respectful time for summit point considering his car was bone stock but I would hate to see him in my rear view mirror coming down the straight braking hard

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by Ruffan

Pixel, I'll be at VIR in June for the Advanced M-school. Was at Summit Point last year, but not sure if I'll make it this season. I'll be sure to let you know if I find an event to attend.

DriveHard, hope you didn't take my comment as a knock, your 128 is still a great car. I don't time my laps, so don't know how I compare, but maybe this year I'll do some stopwatch action. I'm also a karter and have to drive those much differently than I drive my 135. Smooth is fast for sure, especially in a momentum car.

NO not at all.. all good..

BTW If you have an iphone you can get an app.. i forget what its called, but you load the track, set the start finish and it records your lap time.. its something like that.. pretty good from what i am told. ( i dont have an iphone)

[Focusedintntions]

I just did a trackdaze event at VIR this past weekend. They have a NJMP event in July I believe (off the top of my head). I'd recommend them as a good org to get to the track with. Instructors were very good and over all its a very laid back organization, very cool guys!

[pixelblue]

DriveHard I have the app. It's called harry's lap timer. Very cool app.

Focus great to hear that about Trackdaze. They have another event at VIR in July. Planning on using them more this year