DI and carbon build up

[Dackelone]

Hey Guys,

I saw this post today from KC_Skyrider... makes me cringe with carbon buildup.

Check out this pic of the valves with just 12K and all autobahn miles at that!

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090

I wonder why KC did not post the pic here?

[TotalPower]

what would it take for someone to try a new product? just see it on a shelf? read about it? Online/mag?

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Hey Guys,

I saw this post today from KC_Skyrider... makes me cringe with carbon buildup.

Check out this pic of the valves with just 12K and all autobahn miles at that!

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090

I wonder why KC did not post the pic here?

Wow, that looks terrible! As an owner of an RS4, don't even get me started on the CB on EVERY VAG FSI engine (omnipresent in every petrol DI engine they offer, starting from the 2.0 TFSI, through the 3.2V6 FSI, V8 FSI, V10 FSI, and V10 TFSI). Some of the pictures are simply grotesque, along with the loss of power (60+ whp in many cases). What's equally appaling is Audi NA's disregard for it and sweeping the garbage under the rug, claiming it is due to poor US fuel, low Octane in many areas (e.g. CA), poor oil, bad driving habits (in-town/short trips, driving at low Revs, etc.) Any excuse under the sun... The protest is gathering steam quickly and soon will likely result in a class action suit...

Sad to see the N54 engine is not immune, especially to an owner in Germany where the fuel, oil and ability to drive the car spiritedly are not a constraining factor...

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ///M1

Wow, that looks terrible! As an owner of an RS4, don't even get me started on the CB on EVERY VAG FSI engine (omnipresent in every petrol DI engine they offer, starting from the 2.0 TFSI, through the 3.2V6 FSI, V8 FSI, V10 FSI, and V10 TFSI)....

What got me thinking about this is my buddy also has an Audi RS4. He only has 40K miles, and a special self designed(his own) oil catch can.

He was worried about the carbon build up... so he used a digital bore scope(with TV monitor) and snaked it down into his cylinder head valves. He was SHOCKED to see so much carbon buildup, even though he felt no loss in power. Then again his car is relatively new to him. He bought it used as a CPO 2008 model last year for $50K.

He is doing the carbon scrapping himself! He is a brave man!!

Here is a pic of his car right now.

Audi RS4 V8 engine...


What concerns me is when you look at KC_Skyrider's picture above... you can see how shinny the carbon is... that means there is alot of oil goo in our intakes. WIth my buddies RS4, his carbon buildup was a dry type. I/we think bc of his special oil CC design. He is a ME and EE engineer.

Also... any oil in our intakes means it is also getting onto our intercooler inners. ANY oil film will cut down on the intercooler efficentcy - quite a bit! So as our cars get more and more miles. I think along with carbon cleaning we should also be cleaning our intercoolers out!

Btw... my buddy is spraying on some BG product every day/night and it softens the carbon. He then scrapes the carbon off. Only on the closed cylinders. Then he vacums out the old carbon remains. Then he turns the engine over by hand to set the next few cylinders - so the valves are closed. This will take him a week or so to do all eight cylinders.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

What got me thinking about this is my buddy also has an Audi RS4. He only has 40K miles, and a special self designed(his own) oil catch can.

He was worried about the carbon build up... so he used a digital bore scope(with TV monitor) and snaked it down into his cylinder head valves. He was SHOCKED to see so much carbon buildup, even though he felt no loss in power. Then again his car is relatively new to him. He bought it used as a CPO 2008 model last year for $50K.

He is doing the carbon scrapping himself! He is a brave man!!

Here is a pic of his car right now.

What concerns me is when you look at KC_Skyrider's picture above... you can see how shinny the carbon is... that means there is alot of oil goo in our intakes. WIth my buddies RS4, his carbon buildup was a dry type. I/we think bc of his special oil CC design. He is a ME and EE engineer.

Also... any oil in our intakes means it is also getting onto our intercooler inners. ANY oil film will cut down on the intercooler efficentcy - quite a bit! So as our cars get more and more miles. I think along with carbon cleaning we should also be cleaning our intercoolers out!

Btw... my buddy is spraying on some BG product every day/night and it softens the carbon. He then scrapes the carbon off. Only on the closed cylinders. Then he vacums out the old carbon remains. Then he turns the engine over by hand to set the next few cylinders - so the valves are closed. This will take him a week or so to do all eight cylinders.

Thx Dackelone, would be great to chat with your friend as we both (and all RS4 owners) have a pretty serious problem in common. I've seen this picture before, he is probably on some of the forums I roam (e.g. QW).

The power loss is so gradual and over time that it is very tough to diagnose it, unless you have a sensitive butt dyno (which I tend to think I do). Hopping from one RS4 to another, you can tell the difference. Driving it daily, very tough to see the gradual attrition of power. By the time it triggers a CEL fault code/light (usually a stuck flap), it has gone really really bad (cold start/idling roughness, misfires, no more 'punch' after 5500 RPMs, deteriorating fuel economy, etc.) The dealers give you the same story, reset your lights, give you a bottle of an Audi Fuel Additive (which does nothing to remove CB btw), and tell you it'll be fine. Oh yeah, and in the mean time they raise the threshold of the fault code trigger (no joke). Of course eventually CEL light comes back, then they call in a regional tech who needs to drive it for 60 miles (how much trust do you have in him driving your car for 60 miles varies from person to person),and then if you are lucky they will open your IM and clean it.

But not at all to the level of detail your friend is doing. They will try and blast the CB (now using SeaFoam, but before they were using...walnt shells). It actually is a terrible job, you are better off doing it yourself as your friend is doing, or taking it to a shop (here in my area many shops make a living off of it, usually charge $595 which believe it or not isn't bad as it is a very labor intensive job if done right).

What's included in the dealer software 'update' is that your oil temp increases (it seems by about 10F). Better at retarding (but not eliminating) CB, but you know what it means to be running an engine warmer all the time...more serious long term issues. It really is a huge mess and no doubt all FSI owners are extremely disappointed. There hasn't been a visit to my dealer that didn't involve me seeing an R8, S6, RS4, Q7 or other on the ground with its IM removed and awaiting cleaning...

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ///M1

Thx Dackelone, would be great to chat with your friend as we both (and all RS4 owners) have a pretty serious problem in common. I've seen this picture before, he is probably on some of the forums I roam (e.g. QW)...

Yea... he is on QW. He has dived into this carbon buildup thing with full force. Being the total OCD mechanical engineer! lol What he did was to get ahold of some old intake valves that had some serious carbon buildup... and he tried using different chemicals to remove the carbon. What he ended up using(I think!) is BG products stuff. He sprays it on... lets it soak in... and then sprays it a few more times durring the day. The next day, he removes the carbon by scrapping it off with a pastic pick tool.

We shall see how he makes out. But all of his projects always come out well. He did mention that without some (of my!) German torx bits, he would have had no room to get too some of the intake manifold bolts. He said it was like a 10 out of 10 for difficulty. Now thats saying alot bc he had helped me do my clutch job(20 hours plus) in my old Porsche 944 Turbo witch was a real PITA deal.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yea... he is on QW. He has dived into this carbon buildup thing with full force. Being the total OCD mechanical engineer! lol What he did was to get ahold of some old intake valves that had some serious carbon buildup... and he tried using different chemicals to remove the carbon. What he ended up using(I think!) is BG products stuff. He sprays it on... lets it soak in... and then sprays it a few more times durring the day. The next day, he removes the carbon by scrapping it off with a pastic pick tool.

We shall see how he makes out. But all of his projects always come out well. He did mention that without some (of my!) German torx bits, he would have had no room to get too some of the intake manifold bolts. He said it was like a 10 out of 10 for difficulty. Now thats saying alot bc he had helped me do my clutch job(20 hours plus) in my old Porsche 944 Turbo witch was a real PITA deal.

Wow, awesome, sounds just like the man I need for the job, he he! Could you be so kind and PM me his details (and let me know where in Germany you are, will be there for Hockenheim F1), I am a frequent poster on QW and we prolly know each other by our avatars well. If I have to guess, he may be "scub" (we call him "scrub" given how meticulous he is - LOL!) Here is a pic of what his flaps looked like, not for the faint of heart...

http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/28231.phtml

If he is in the tri-sate NY/NJ/CT area, we are having our annual RS4 meet this weekend, maybe he can come.

PS: Sorry for the OT guys, but it still is CB related If anything, take solace the buildup on the N54 is NOTHING compared to a VAG FSI engine. Has made me reconsider owning anything coming from Ingolstadt...

[JHZR2]

wow, I talked about all this ages ago... and I still dont own a 135 (yet, its on order).

This and fuel dilution of the oil are real issues.

[Dackelone]

I was talking with my friend with the RS4 (see photo above). I git some facts wrong. He experimented with some de carboning agents. He got some used carbon'd up intake valves(from a friend!) and made some tests on them. He found that when you spray down the carbon'd up valves with Seafoam... after the first day... it kind of comes off. BUT after two days of spraying the valves down in the morning and at night... after that 2nd day the carbon just flakes off with a plastic knife! This is how he removed ALL his carbon buildup.

He has gotten his RS4 back on the road... he said it was one MOTHER of a job. He rated it 10 our of 10 for difficultly... mainly bc Audi uses these torx screws (e-torx sockets needed) and you need some shallow ones - bc of the tight confines of that motor. Luckly I left him some of my tools when I moved back to Germany!

He also said that his car feels a lot more responsive with the throttle! He feels like his car has another 30 Ho now. Even though he did not have any major amounts of sludge buildup bc of his self/home made design OCC packed with lots of coper wire (Brillo)scrubbers.

He thinks on our turbo engines we would not notice the buildup as much... bc of the forced fed induction. Turbocharged cars are just not that sensitive to carbon build up... even though ANY is not good - IF you ask me! Just FYI.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

There is also a thread on this on the BITOG (Bob is the Oil Guy) forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...95#Post1574495

If this link doesn't work, the gist of it is that the problem is associated with turbo charged direct injected engines that have a tendency to cook the oil pretty good: Audis, MazdaSpeeds, MINIs, and maybe N54 BMWs. Puttting any thing in the gas doesn't help since the valves never see gas, only air and the oil vapors sucked up from the crankcase. I checked with the SA at my BMW dealer and he said they are starting to do valve/intake cleanings not only on N54 motors but also on the MINI engines, and he says they have had to pull the heads of several MINI engines to manually remove deposits. Don't know whether the service is really necessary or not, or just something they sell.

I have been doing a lot of reading over there at Bob's website... very interesting stuff!!!

Makes me want to know IF the carbon build up is a direct coralation to oil type and long drain intervals.

I think this is just one more reason to change the oil VERY often. Over at that Bob website there is ALOT of talk about oil dulution due to the way D.I. are tuned to run too rich. I noticed the oil was very thin on my first oil change. I just put it down as the car being new. But now I am worried.

I think the ONLY peace of mind will be from frequeant oil changes! 4-5K miles.

[JHZR2]

Volatility of the oil needs to be a consideration. Especially in the heat of a high power density turbocharged engine.

NOACK volatility tests generally find that 5-10% of an oil can "flash" off. In some cars, this isnt an issue, nothing is hot enough with typical use to cook out a hige amount. Other times, it may be an issue. In a DI engine, even if it isnt a big amount, given the lack of solvency due to no spray on the valves, deposits can form.

An oil catch can shows this, as it catches a lot of junk, but IMO is in no way absolutely effective. This all just drives us to lower volatility (more expensive) oils, and less harmful adds that may sacrifice wear protection in certain engine designs.

[Dackelone]

Hi Guys,

I saw at the Hazet tool display this cool electronic endoscope that can take both video and still photos. What I like abou this tool is the cable is very slim, like 10mm I think. You can thread it down the spark plug hole to see how bad your carbon buildup really is. Very usefull.

Here are some photos that I took of this tool at the Bodensee Messe. The only problem is... it costs: 800 euros for the complete kit. That is a bit steep for me. But it has a lot of features and is really slim dia camera.

[Dackelone]

Does anyone know of a cheaper Endoscope than this one? The probe has to be really small to get into the sparkplug hole. Like less than 14mm O.D. This Hazet one was really nice and small but... $$$ @ 800 euros!

Btw... the endoscope on the right is an old school fiber optic type. No camera functions. But still Hazet wants like 400 euros for that one!

I saw this one at a local German grocery store (REAL). It's cheap at 99 euros, but the sensor is too big (15mm I think) to get into our S. plug hole.

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B002...pf_rd_i=301128

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by m6pwr

There is also a thread on this on the BITOG (Bob is the Oil Guy) forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...95#Post1574495

If this link doesn't work, the gist of it is that the problem is associated with turbo charged direct injected engines that have a tendency to cook the oil pretty good: Audis, MazdaSpeeds, MINIs, and maybe N54 BMWs. Puttting any thing in the gas doesn't help since the valves never see gas, only air and the oil vapors sucked up from the crankcase. I checked with the SA at my BMW dealer and he said they are starting to do valve/intake cleanings not only on N54 motors but also on the MINI engines, and he says they have had to pull the heads of several MINI engines to manually remove deposits. Don't know whether the service is really necessary or not, or just something they sell.

Take a look at this techron demo: http://www.techron.com/

According to them, the valves will still see some of the techron if used from the gas tank. Dont know if its bs or not...

[Dackelone]

The carbon buildup is just one more argument for shorter OCI (oil change intervals).

I personally plan to use some sort of spray foam (like Seafoam or Liqu Moly) inside the intake tract as a preventive maintenance.

Something like this...

Liqu Moly 5111 Pro-Line Drosselklappen-Reiniger

http://www.amazon.de/Liqui-Moly-5111...055584&sr=1-38

[Brandon26pdx]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

The carbon buildup is just one more argument for shorter OCI (oil change intervals).

I have a hard time believing those RS4 driving oil geeks were running long oil change intervals, yet the carbon cakes on anyway. But who knows.

[Alext]

I just bought a bottle of Liqui Moly Fuel Injector Cleaner for our VW. Read a lot of great reviews about Liqui Moly stuff made in Germany on BITOG. Also it is TUV tested & approved...a lot of BMW owners like it.

Autobild did a test on it and found that it was one of the few products that actually worked to restore lost performance and economy.

I'm putting it in today.

[artar]

so... if seafoam produces the crazy stuff out of the tailpipe when it does it's thing, does this suggest impact to the catalytic converter?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by artar

so... if seafoam produces the crazy stuff out of the tailpipe when it does it's thing, does this suggest impact to the catalytic converter?

I have used the Liqu Moly intake plenum cleaner (two cans) on my old e36. It also caused some moderate smoke... but it wasn't all that bad. My cat was fine afterwards. I don't think a product could get the TUV approval if it caused damage to the car's emission system.

[onefastman]

Nope sea foam is cat safe, says right on the can.

[Mindgame]

Now that i'm interested in Seafoaming - who knows which Vacuum line to use?

Seafoam's website states to use a line which feeds each intake runner evenly. One glance at the motor and I thought DV Vacuum line (runs straight into intake manifold.) However, this line runs offcenter to the rear (closest to firewall) section of the manifold..leading me to think it will feed the rear 2-3 runners before the front 3-4.

Ideas? We need a good DIY for this.

[instag8tr]

The rear of the engine was worse than the front on mine. If I can get some pictures uploaded you can see it.