Harness installation

[terivera]

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has anyone installed 5 or 6 point harnesses in a 1M Coupe with STOCK SEATS???

[Ky1M]

I bet powerbeast has the info

[MDORPHN]

You can NOT safely run harnesses with the stock seats.

Neil

[Ky1M]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

You can NOT safely run harnesses with the stock seats.

Neil

He did put in a BR roll bar if that matters .

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by Ky1M

He did put in a BR roll bar if that matters .

That's good, but there is no way to accomodate a sub-belt and I'm doubtful that the shoulder belts will be properly positioned and secured since they won't be passing through the seats.

Nei

[Ky1M]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

That's good, but there is no way to accomodate a sub-belt and I'm doubtful that the shoulder belts will be properly positioned and secured since they won't be passing through the seats.

Nei

Thanks Neil I'll pass it on.

[terivera]

Hi Neil, Do you have a recommendation for my 1M, or as Schroth suggested to me their Rallye Cross 4 point. Is the issue with the sub belts all the electronics under the front seat?
Eddie

[terivera]

Hi Neil, Is the issue with the electronics under the seat and floorboard? Should I as Schroth suggests just give up on 5 or6 point and go with the Schroth Rallye Cross. I have heard from others this may be an option.

[MDORPHN]

I"m not real familiar with the Schroth Rallye Cross, but am under impression that they're not "certified" for use in the 1 series

In any event, I'd call Joe Marko at HMS Motorsport. They're the U.S. importer for Schroth and Joe is the guy when it comes to proper installation of harnesses.

Neil

[terivera]

Have a call in to Joe and just awaiting a call back.

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by terivera

Have a call in to Joe and just awaiting a call back.

Any response from Schroth? I'm looking for the 4 point harness as well.

[bdaddylo]

I called Schroth and they said they plan to make a harness for the 1 Series, but it's at least 3 months out. We may be able to use another model's harness if our buckles are the same.

[mattm]

I installed the Schroth Rally 3 for autocross use. The waist pieces I bolted into the rear seat track and the shoulder "Y" went to the the rear lap belt at the center tunnel. It matches Schroths diagram. I'm sure they would not endorse it, but I am not using it on the street, only autocross. I always have to remember to grab the stock belt and pull it behind the seat and plug it in so the damn bell isn't going off during a run (very distracting). I'll try to remember to grab some pics.

[mattm]

Pics of my install. Please remember this is for autocross only.

[MDORPHN]

Matt -

As I'm sure you appreciate (and, presumably, the reason you're only using these for autox), the angle of the harnesses upward from the rear seat up and over your shoulders would likely cause a compression fracture of your spine in the event of an accident.

This, of course, wouldn't happen in an autox, but thought I'd spell it out for those who might be tempted to use harnesses in this manner on the street or track.

Neil

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

Matt -

As I'm sure you appreciate (and, presumably, the reason you're only using these for autox), the angle of the harnesses upward from the rear seat up and over your shoulders would likely cause a compression fracture of your spine in the event of an accident.

This, of course, wouldn't happen in an autox, but thought I'd spell it out for those who might be tempted to use harnesses in this manner on the street or track.

Neil

Is the angle much different from the e36 and e46 harnesses?

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by bdaddylo

I called Schroth and they said they plan to make a harness for the 1 Series, but it's at least 3 months out.

Schroth has been saying that since 2008. I don't believe it will ever happen. HMS says Rallye 3 is the only 4-way option for 1 series.

Originally Posted by bdaddylo

We may be able to use another model's harness if our buckles are the same.

I told Joe at HMS that someone who posts here uses a Schroth Quickfit for Audi in a 135i because it fits. Joe said no, don't do that, it's not safe. He said Rallye 3 is the only 4-way harness you can safely use in 1 series.

Originally Posted by mattm

I installed the Schroth Rally 3 for autocross use. ...the shoulder "Y" went to the the rear lap belt at the center tunnel. It matches Schroths diagram.

Did Joe at HMS tell you to attach it there? Since he recommends that harness for 1 series, I'd be amazed if he won't say how you should attach it. I'm going to call him again and ask.

[mattm]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

Matt - As I'm sure you appreciate (and, presumably, the reason you're only using these for autox), the angle of the harnesses upward from the rear seat up and over your shoulders would likely cause a compression fracture of your spine in the event of an accident. This, of course, wouldn't happen in an autox, but thought I'd spell it out for those who might be tempted to use harnesses in this manner on the street or track. Neil

And that is why in BOTH posts I specifically mentioned that they are used in autocross only. For anything outside of autocross (street or track) I'd want a five or six point harness mounted appropriately. Of note, if you look at page 6 of Schroth's instructions (attached, Rally 3), it looks like my mounting is following their instructions. I am not mounting at the center line but indeed to the side of the line and off the center tunnel (I hope I don't injure myself patting myself on my back).

I'm sure from a liability standpoint for Schroth; they do not want to imply the setup is safe without testing. But it seems they are slow to do that since they have yet to offer clip in for an E90 Three. HMS also said it would be a long time before an "approved" 1M setup is made available.

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by mattm

And that is why in BOTH posts I specifically mentioned that they are used in autocross only. For anything outside of autocross (street or track) I'd want a five or six point harness mounted appropriately. Of note, if you look at page 6 of Schroth's instructions (attached, Rally 3), it looks like my mounting is following their instructions. I am not mounting at the center line but indeed to the side of the line and off the center tunnel (I hope I don't injure myself patting myself on my back).

I'm sure from a liability standpoint for Schroth; they do not want to imply the setup is safe without testing. But it seems they are slow to do that since they have yet to offer clip in for an E90 Three. HMS also said it would be a long time before an "approved" 1M setup is made available.

Matt -

Yep, I get it and appreciate that you fully understand the issues. FWIW, I think your decisions are well-considered and reasonable.

Nonetheless, I thought it would be worthwhile to spell out the risks to those who might be tempted to run this sort of set-up on the street.

Neil

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

Nonetheless, I thought it would be worthwhile to spell out the risks to those who might be tempted to run this sort of set-up on the street.

Neil: I am one of those. Someting nobody EVER mentions at that point of any discussion is, that most of the injuries occur because drivers are not fastening their harnesses properly! You can even see it in numerous race onboard shots, that the harnesses allow movement of the upper body. And if that is the case, predominantely then do you run a very high risk of injury to the spine. A 4-, 5, or 6-point harness is NEVER comfortable to wear, if you are strapped in correctly! That is why I need two mechanics to strap me into my e36 racecar (Willans 6-point). If I wear my 4-point, then I am strapped in. It took me over an hour in the shop until we had the harness set to exactly how it needed to be. Most drivers that use these harnesses do not have any idea what they are doing (if i.e. I see a waist belt screwed to the seat rail) and that is where problems arise. A good 4-point is pro equipement, nothing else. Find out what it is supposed to do, mount it correctly (and with the right seat) and then make sure it fits perfectly. Then (and only then) will you be wearing a seat belt that will be able to do what it was made to.

[GaryS]

I just called HMS and spoke to Joe. They're now recommending the Rallye 4 harness for the 1 series. Before they tested the Rallye 4 in a 1, they doubted that it would work. But testing showed that it does work perfectly and safely. The Rallye 3 is also fine, no reason to stop using it.

For the Rallye 3, mattm's installation is exactly what HMS recommends. For the Rallye 4, they recommend pretty much the same but using the door-side lap belt mount as well for the second tail strap. I asked whether the Rallye 4 can be used with the rear seat bottom in place, and he said yes, there is no reason to remove the seat after the initial installation.

HMS says there is absolutely no danger using Rallye 3 or Rallye 4 with stock seats and no harness bar on a road course for DE. Joe said I should stop listening to folklore.

[mattm]

Originally Posted by GaryS

For the Rallye 3, mattm's installation is exactly what HMS recommends.

OMG, the apocalypse is coming (or here)!!!