What is a backend flash?

BLU135i · 11-19-2014, 08:34 PM

I see people talking about this and I'm curious as to what it is and how it works. I'm currently running JB4 ISO. Have berk exhaust and no other mods.
Thanks

froop · 11-20-2014, 12:14 AM

A backend flash is an ECU flash tune designed to generally control fueling and timing amongst other things, leaving the piggyback to control boost, maybe some fueling and maybe some meth. It is necessary when wanting to run higher concentrations of ethanol as the stock DME fuel scalars were designed to run only petroleum or very low ethanol blends.

In my case, I have a Cobb backend flash which controls fueling, AFRs, timing etc. My Procede controls the boost and methanol.

Tricki · 11-20-2014, 02:17 AM

Good question!! I've been wondering that too lately 👍👍

I have PPK with jb4 on top of it.. Is that sort of the same thing??

BLU135i · 11-20-2014, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tricki

Good question!! I've been wondering that too lately 👍👍

I have PPK with jb4 on top of it.. Is that sort of the same thing??

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I think the JB4 will null out the PPK flash. Basically its like throwing a JB4 on the stock motor.

Anthony B · 11-20-2014, 02:34 PM

as far as I have been led to understand map 0 the ppk will still be functional as the jb4 is essentially off, after that it will nullify the PPK

BLU135i · 11-20-2014, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony B

as far as I have been led to understand map 0 the ppk will still be functional as the jb4 is essentially off, after that it will nullify the PPK

Exactly.

1forI · 11-20-2014, 10:43 PM

Good description above. That was my understanding as well. But it would be great if someone could elaborate and explain what types of setups would benefit most or not benefit, i.e, turbo upgrades or Cali 91 octane.

I see people making great power using this "best of both worlds" set up, but since it's new there's not a lot out there to research yet.

Indo Rider · 11-21-2014, 07:33 AM

Not new. I've been using a BMS flash for years and I'm never an early adopter of anything. Search around. There's a sticky on n54tech that is like 100 pages all about it.

darkrom · 11-21-2014, 07:51 AM

IMO its not worth it until you have full bolt ons and/or are using E85, or if you have done a turbo swap.

My plan is full bolt ons, then the pump gas backend flash when that is no longer good enough.

ShocknAwe · 11-21-2014, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkrom

IMO its not worth it until you have full bolt ons and/or are using E85, or if you have done a turbo swap.

My plan is full bolt ons, then the pump gas backend flash when that is no longer good enough.

Maybe not for power, though it has been demonstrated (by Terry) to produce more even on a car with limited mods. What it does is introduce the smoothness of a flash tune coupled with the features and adaptation of the JB4.

TUN3D · 11-21-2014, 09:54 AM

+1 > froop

The JB4 can only take you so far. As you push more power and/or start using meth/e85...the fuel demands change. These changes can not be dialed in properly thru the JB4. While there are added benefits to the back-end flash, the most important aspect is fueling. Once your car is flashed, the JB4 (or Procede in froop's case), is used primarily to change maps/control boost. Everything else is dialed right into the DME.

Even though the JB4 can handle things fairly well, including meth & some E85, you can use a back-end flash at any time. If you're using one of the FREE solutions out there, just make sure you get the right one according to what you're running and what version of the DME you have.

If you're a casual enthusiast -- just run the JB4 with a little E85 (maybe a little meth) and you're golden. Forget the flash.

If you're a power hungry enthusiast...the rule of thumb is to work your way up gradually and log-log-log. The numbers will tell you what to do.

Miko226 · 11-21-2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUN3D

+1 > froop

The JB4 can only take you so far. As you push more power and/or start using meth/e85...the fuel demands change. These changes can not be dialed in properly thru the JB4. While there are added benefits to the back-end flash, the most important aspect is fueling. Once your car is flashed, the JB4 (or Procede in froop's case), is used primarily to change maps/control boost. Everything else is dialed right into the DME.

Even though the JB4 can handle things fairly well, including meth & some E85, you can use a back-end flash at any time. If you're using one of the FREE solutions out there, just make sure you get the right one according to what you're running and what version of the DME you have.

If you're a casual enthusiast -- just run the JB4 with a little E85 (maybe a little meth) and you're golden. Forget the flash.

If you're a power hungry enthusiast...the rule of thumb is to work your way up gradually and log-log-log. The numbers will tell you what to do.

+1

1forI · 11-21-2014, 10:18 AM

Thanks guys. This is helpful. I had read that thread but not the newer posts. I'll revisit it. My confusion came when I saw the big power gains on pump gas, but then someone "associated" with BMS said that it was only recommended for turbo upgrades (which makes sense, power-wise).

I have most power mods (minus fmic on the way) but am limited by 91 octane. I mix in 4 gallons of e85 and am very happy with the power, but since it's natural to want more eventually wanted to know my options for increased power and smoother delivery. Not really thinking about meth (yet) and not going to upgrade turbo because I have a lot of suspension work ahead that I'd want first.

TUN3D · 11-21-2014, 11:27 AM

1forI > The notion that the flash is "only" for upgrades or power-gains is a little misleading.

For my current build, as an example, I'm not running upgraded snails...or meth. My city has 93 & e85 all over the place. The JB4 alone can handle about 3-5 gallons of e85 before it shits all over itself. Meaning...runs way too lean, error codes, limp mode, etc.

This happens because the fuel adjustment scale of the JB4 is limited. You also can't adjust timing properly to compensate for the higher octane levels produced by blending gases/adding meth.

That's where the flash comes in. It doesn't produce any more power per say (again, if used in conjunction with a piggy-back). It simply switches the basic fueling/timing responsibilities over to the DME where there is unlimited room for adjustments.

In your case, with 91 & 4-gals of e85 -- you're fine. In contrast, I run 93 & 9.5-gals of e85 -- that's why I have to use it.

Meth will defiantly help you in terms of raising your octane levels (not to mention the added cooling benefits). That said though, being that your on 91, you still have some room to play with. Try adding 5-gals of e85 and see how your car does. Log and post the results on n54tech.com. If it does well, try 6-gals -- rinse and repeat.

The idea is to push it gradually and find the threshold of what your car can handle on the JB4 alone. As soon as you hit the wall (which your car will tell you BTW), just scale it down gradually -- find the sweet spot -- to where it runs well.

Once you get there (and perhaps want to keep climbing)...that's when you'll need to evaluate the situation and decide on a flash, upgraded LPFP, etc.

1forI · 11-21-2014, 01:50 PM

Great additional explanation. Your fuel suggestions make sense and give me something to play. Thanks!

Miko226 · 11-21-2014, 02:05 PM

If you have an e85 backend flash do you always have to run e85 once you have it flashed?

ShocknAwe · 11-21-2014, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miko226

If you have an e85 backend flash do you always have to run e85 once you have it flashed?

Yes and no. You could limp around town staying out of boost without e85 but if you wanted to actually drive, yeah, you're gonna need a minimum of 50%.

If you don't have it and hit boost repeatedly as normal, you will run super lean, errors, and maybe damage something.

Miko226 · 11-21-2014, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Yes and no. You could limp around town staying out of boost without e85 but if you wanted to actually drive, yeah, you're gonna need a minimum of 50%.

If you don't have it and hit boost repeatedly as normal, you will run super lean, errors, and maybe damage something.

Thanks this is what i thought. i am able to run e85 all the time since i live next to a station but i don't always run it and i normally only run e40ish so i would also upgrade LPFP or add inline before i do this then

ShocknAwe · 11-21-2014, 06:53 PM

yup, upgraded fueling is a prerequisite.

mike@x-ph.com · 11-22-2014, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLU135i

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I think the JB4 will null out the PPK flash. Basically its like throwing a JB4 on the stock motor.

The Jb4 will take over the boost, so boost targets set by the PPK will become obsolete.
But the PPK will still control AFR,ignition advance and fuel

darkrom · 11-24-2014, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

The Jb4 will take over the boost, so boost targets set by the PPK will become obsolete.
But the PPK will still control AFR,ignition advance and fuel

PPK is really just the same thing as the backend flash, just less aggressive isn't it?

No Style 135is · 05-29-2016, 10:49 PM

Can I call Dinan Stage 3 as a back end flash as well?
If I stack a JB4 on top of Dinan, I can call my car run a JB4 with BEF, am I right?

11-19-2014, 08:34 PM	#1
BLU135i Senior Chief Petty Officer USN 106 Rep 501 Posts Drives: X5 35d Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Haze Grey iTrader: (1)	What is a backend flash? I see people talking about this and I'm curious as to what it is and how it works. I'm currently running JB4 ISO. Have berk exhaust and no other mods. Thanks
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11-20-2014, 12:14 AM	#2
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	A backend flash is an ECU flash tune designed to generally control fueling and timing amongst other things, leaving the piggyback to control boost, maybe some fueling and maybe some meth. It is necessary when wanting to run higher concentrations of ethanol as the stock DME fuel scalars were designed to run only petroleum or very low ethanol blends. In my case, I have a Cobb backend flash which controls fueling, AFRs, timing etc. My Procede controls the boost and methanol. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
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11-20-2014, 02:17 AM	#3
Tricki Lieutenant 215 Rep 472 Posts Drives: BMW M2 Comp Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Melbourne Australia iTrader: (0)	Good question!! I've been wondering that too lately 👍👍 I have PPK with jb4 on top of it.. Is that sort of the same thing??
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11-20-2014, 02:34 PM	#5
Anthony B Private First Class 13 Rep 113 Posts Drives: lemans 135i & m30b35 e30 Join Date: May 2014 Location: Sydney iTrader: (0)	as far as I have been led to understand map 0 the ppk will still be functional as the jb4 is essentially off, after that it will nullify the PPK
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11-20-2014, 10:43 PM	#7
1forI Second Lieutenant 18 Rep 205 Posts Drives: N55 DCT 135 / E36 M3 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Culver City, CA iTrader: (2)	Good description above. That was my understanding as well. But it would be great if someone could elaborate and explain what types of setups would benefit most or not benefit, i.e, turbo upgrades or Cali 91 octane. I see people making great power using this "best of both worlds" set up, but since it's new there's not a lot out there to research yet. __________________ [SIZE="1"]JB4 ISO, PURE Turbo Stage 1 v2, Megan DP, 5" stepped VRSF FMIC, AFE CAI, Fuel-it Stage 1 inline LPFP, ER Charge Pipe, KWV3 w/swift spring conversion, M3 Front Control Arms, e90 M3 FSB, Whiteline RSF Inserts, Dinan Camber Plates
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11-21-2014, 07:33 AM	#8
Indo Rider Captain 543 Rep 731 Posts Drives: 135 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Not new. I've been using a BMS flash for years and I'm never an early adopter of anything. Search around. There's a sticky on n54tech that is like 100 pages all about it.
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11-21-2014, 07:51 AM	#9
darkrom Colonel 188 Rep 2,224 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Rhode Island iTrader: (5)	IMO its not worth it until you have full bolt ons and/or are using E85, or if you have done a turbo swap. My plan is full bolt ons, then the pump gas backend flash when that is no longer good enough.
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11-21-2014, 09:54 AM	#11
TUN3D Major 193 Rep 1,181 Posts Drives: none Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: none iTrader: (17)	+1 > froop The JB4 can only take you so far. As you push more power and/or start using meth/e85...the fuel demands change. These changes can not be dialed in properly thru the JB4. While there are added benefits to the back-end flash, the most important aspect is fueling. Once your car is flashed, the JB4 (or Procede in froop's case), is used primarily to change maps/control boost. Everything else is dialed right into the DME. Even though the JB4 can handle things fairly well, including meth & some E85, you can use a back-end flash at any time. If you're using one of the FREE solutions out there, just make sure you get the right one according to what you're running and what version of the DME you have. If you're a casual enthusiast -- just run the JB4 with a little E85 (maybe a little meth) and you're golden. Forget the flash. If you're a power hungry enthusiast...the rule of thumb is to work your way up gradually and log-log-log. The numbers will tell you what to do. __________________ Last edited by TUN3D; 11-21-2014 at 10:02 AM..
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11-21-2014, 10:18 AM	#13
1forI Second Lieutenant 18 Rep 205 Posts Drives: N55 DCT 135 / E36 M3 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Culver City, CA iTrader: (2)	Thanks guys. This is helpful. I had read that thread but not the newer posts. I'll revisit it. My confusion came when I saw the big power gains on pump gas, but then someone "associated" with BMS said that it was only recommended for turbo upgrades (which makes sense, power-wise). I have most power mods (minus fmic on the way) but am limited by 91 octane. I mix in 4 gallons of e85 and am very happy with the power, but since it's natural to want more eventually wanted to know my options for increased power and smoother delivery. Not really thinking about meth (yet) and not going to upgrade turbo because I have a lot of suspension work ahead that I'd want first. Last edited by 1forI; 11-21-2014 at 10:28 AM..
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11-21-2014, 11:27 AM	#14
TUN3D Major 193 Rep 1,181 Posts Drives: none Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: none iTrader: (17)	1forI > The notion that the flash is "only" for upgrades or power-gains is a little misleading. For my current build, as an example, I'm not running upgraded snails...or meth. My city has 93 & e85 all over the place. The JB4 alone can handle about 3-5 gallons of e85 before it shits all over itself. Meaning...runs way too lean, error codes, limp mode, etc. This happens because the fuel adjustment scale of the JB4 is limited. You also can't adjust timing properly to compensate for the higher octane levels produced by blending gases/adding meth. That's where the flash comes in. It doesn't produce any more power per say (again, if used in conjunction with a piggy-back). It simply switches the basic fueling/timing responsibilities over to the DME where there is unlimited room for adjustments. In your case, with 91 & 4-gals of e85 -- you're fine. In contrast, I run 93 & 9.5-gals of e85 -- that's why I have to use it. Meth will defiantly help you in terms of raising your octane levels (not to mention the added cooling benefits). That said though, being that your on 91, you still have some room to play with. Try adding 5-gals of e85 and see how your car does. Log and post the results on n54tech.com. If it does well, try 6-gals -- rinse and repeat. The idea is to push it gradually and find the threshold of what your car can handle on the JB4 alone. As soon as you hit the wall (which your car will tell you BTW), just scale it down gradually -- find the sweet spot -- to where it runs well. Once you get there (and perhaps want to keep climbing)...that's when you'll need to evaluate the situation and decide on a flash, upgraded LPFP, etc. __________________ Last edited by TUN3D; 11-21-2014 at 04:42 PM..
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11-21-2014, 01:50 PM	#15
1forI Second Lieutenant 18 Rep 205 Posts Drives: N55 DCT 135 / E36 M3 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Culver City, CA iTrader: (2)	Great additional explanation. Your fuel suggestions make sense and give me something to play. Thanks!
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11-21-2014, 02:05 PM	#16
Miko226 Captain 61 Rep 722 Posts Drives: 11' 335d Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Boca Raton, FL iTrader: (0)	If you have an e85 backend flash do you always have to run e85 once you have it flashed? __________________ 11' m57 335d 165k Miles - JR 2, ATM Full Exhaust & Intake, Wagner FMIC, AAR Boost Pipe, AAR Swirl Delete, AAR EGR Delete 08' n54 135i FBO E85 - SOLD
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11-21-2014, 06:53 PM	#19
ShocknAwe 1Addict 3233 Rep 7,893 Posts Drives: E82 Mutt, M57 Truck Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Charleston iTrader: (22)	yup, upgraded fueling is a prerequisite. __________________ 2010 135i 6MT Jet Black N54/3 FE82 Mutt \| BUILD THREAD \| GARAGE SALE
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05-29-2016, 10:49 PM	#22
No Style 135is Private First Class 8 Rep 187 Posts Drives: '90 gtr r32 Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (0)	Can I call Dinan Stage 3 as a back end flash as well? If I stack a JB4 on top of Dinan, I can call my car run a JB4 with BEF, am I right?
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