1M auxiliary radiator delete?

[hot-j]

I figured you guys might know the answer to this question better than anybody on the 1M form. I am adding a second oil cooler where the auxiliary radiator sits in the driver side portion of the bumper cover, my question is, to properly delete the radiator I'm assuming some of the hoses need to be changed, do any of you guys know which ones?

[hot-j]

Found them after 3hrs of google-ing....

[Yeineken]

Please post your results for those in the future.

[zx10guy]

I would think it's similar to the PPK stage 2 system if not the same. I had that system installed on my N55 based car.

[ilikebmxbikes]

i would not delete the radiator. perhaps just install a larger single oil cooler in place of the stock unit.

[hot-j]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

i would not delete the radiator. perhaps just install a larger single oil cooler in place of the stock unit.

I appreciate your opinion, but there are more parameters here than people are seeing. This is not a track car. Your coolant system was not designed to cool your oil. It was designed to remove heat from your cylinder head and around the cylinders in the block, As such I can't have my coolant overcooled during normal operation. That would cause many issues long term seeing as how your dme reads and adjusts your timing and fueling tables to suit. The CSF Radiator along with the redline supercool/antifreeze and waterwetter mix should hold up the auxiliary radiators end fine. On and off boost in hard driving accelerate oil temps FAST. One larger oil cooler I fear (in my opinion) will not be enough. The high oil temps we see have a side effect no one talks about. Thermal break down of your oils viscosity. The only cars I know of with comparable oil temps to ours, are air cooled turbo porsche. Which have the advantages of a dry sump system and a larger oil capacity. (Larger oil capacity is a small side benefit of a 2nd larger cooler) ( I am a porsche tech). I am taking my experience and knowledge and applying it to my car in hopes I am right. Once I get my new oil coolers, I am also going to try to figure out how to add fans... maybe as a last resort.. won't know until they get here and I see what is available for fans. Hope this clears some things up about why I am heading in this direction.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by hot-j

I appreciate your opinion, but there are more parameters here than people are seeing. This is not a track car. Your coolant system was not designed to cool your oil. It was designed to remove heat from your cylinder head and around the cylinders in the block, As such I can't have my coolant overcooled during normal operation. That would cause many issues long term seeing as how your dme reads and adjusts your timing and fueling tables to suit. The CSF Radiator along with the redline supercool/antifreeze and waterwetter mix should hold up the auxiliary radiators end fine. On and off boost in hard driving accelerate oil temps FAST. One larger oil cooler I fear (in my opinion) will not be enough. The high oil temps we see have a side effect no one talks about. Thermal break down of your oils viscosity. The only cars I know of with comparable oil temps to ours, are air cooled turbo porsche. ( I am a porsche tech). I am taking my experience and knowledge and applying it to my car in hopes I am right. Once I get my new oil coolers, I am also going to try to figure out how to add fans... maybe as a last resort.. won't know until they get here and I see what is available for fans. Hope this clears some things up about why I am heading in this direction.

Sounds good

[titium]

Originally Posted by hot-j

I appreciate your opinion, but there are more parameters here than people are seeing. This is not a track car. Your coolant system was not designed to cool your oil. It was designed to remove heat from your cylinder head and around the cylinders in the block, As such I can't have my coolant overcooled during normal operation. That would cause many issues long term seeing as how your dme reads and adjusts your timing and fueling tables to suit. The CSF Radiator along with the redline supercool/antifreeze and waterwetter mix should hold up the auxiliary radiators end fine. On and off boost in hard driving accelerate oil temps FAST. One larger oil cooler I fear (in my opinion) will not be enough. The high oil temps we see have a side effect no one talks about. Thermal break down of your oils viscosity. The only cars I know of with comparable oil temps to ours, are air cooled turbo porsche. Which have the advantages of a dry sump system and a larger oil capacity. (Larger oil capacity is a small side benefit of a 2nd larger cooler) ( I am a porsche tech). I am taking my experience and knowledge and applying it to my car in hopes I am right. Once I get my new oil coolers, I am also going to try to figure out how to add fans... maybe as a last resort.. won't know until they get here and I see what is available for fans. Hope this clears some things up about why I am heading in this direction.

why are you adding an oil cooler if you're not tracking the car? I've never seen oil temps above 125deg C (260deg F) on the street and that's after hrs of hard driving non stop.

it's a 1m so it's MT that in itself alleviates alot of the cooling issues.

coolant temps do have an affect on oil temps. run the car on a hot day ambient temps >32 degrees C (90 deg F )and you'll see oil temps sit lower due to the dme targeting lower coolant temps and running the waterpump harder.

[hot-j]

Originally Posted by titium

why are you adding an oil cooler if you're not tracking the car? I've never seen oil temps above 125deg C (260deg F) on the street and that's after hrs of hard driving non stop.

it's a 1m so it's MT that in itself alleviates alot of the cooling issues.

coolant temps do have an affect on oil temps. run the car on a hot day ambient temps >32 degrees C (90 deg F )and you'll see oil temps sit lower due to the dme targeting lower coolant temps and running the waterpump harder.

I never said coolant temps didn't have an effect on oil temps. What I said was the coolant system was not designed to cool your oil temps, rather your combustion chamber temps. Not once, have I seen my oil temps dip lower than coolant on a 90 degree day. That wouldn't happen. I've spent many days idle in traffic during the summer and oil temps are ALWAYS higher. Additionally you have no idea what my tune is, boost I am running or how hard I drive my car and so forth. So why would you ask a question like that when our setups and driving styles and uses are obviously not the same? Please don't clutter my thread with analogies based off you and your car. Its not the same even if they both are 1M's. Additionally you obviously didn't read what I said about thermal viscosity break down of our oil due to the high temps.... come on....

[titium]

Originally Posted by hot-j

I never said coolant temps didn't have an effect on oil temps. What I said was the coolant system was not designed to cool your oil temps, rather your combustion chamber temps. Not once, have I seen my oil temps dip lower than coolant on a 90 degree day. That wouldn't happen. I've spent many days idle in traffic during the summer and oil temps are ALWAYS higher. Additionally you have no idea what my tune is, boost I am running or how hard I drive my car and so forth. So why would you ask a question like that when our setups and driving styles and uses are obviously not the same? Please don't clutter my thread with analogies based off you and your car. Its not the same even if they both are 1M's. Additionally you obviously didn't read what I said about thermal viscosity break down of our oil due to the high temps.... come on....

can you please update this thread once it's all installed? curious to know how much your oil temps drop with street driving and the new oil cooler - preferably with no changes to dme coolant temp targets for a fair comparison.

[hot-j]

I definitely will.

[ilikebmxbikes]

But to answer your question about deleting the secondary radiator, it is a BMW ppk radiator, which BMW sold before the 1m as an upgrade to the 135i. You could easily and cheaply buy the 135i parts to remove the radiator.

[hot-j]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

But to answer your question about deleting the secondary radiator, it is a BMW ppk radiator, which BMW sold before the 1m as an upgrade to the 135i. You could easily and cheaply buy the 135i parts to remove the radiator.

Yes sir, I already have. 2 hoses were all that was required. I've misplaced the paper I wrote the part numbers on, I will post them for anyone interested when I get the invoice.

[Nosrok]

Poking around RealOEM looks like the lower radiator hose needs to be swapped or Blocked off but can't see where it plumbs back into the system.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=17_0561

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by titium

coolant temps do have an affect on oil temps. run the car on a hot day ambient temps >32 degrees C (90 deg F )and you'll see oil temps sit lower due to the dme targeting lower coolant temps and running the waterpump harder.

This isnt true at all. DME targets HIGHER (230f) coolant temps in traffic, and COOLER coolant temps during performance driving (180f). DME doesnt change coolant target based on ambient temp... You can easily see coolant temps FALL, as the dme targets peak power, while oil temps RISE across a high gear pull.

The relationship between coolant isnt as direct on BMW's as on other makes. BMW literally seperates the oil and coolant passages in the block as much as possible. Coolant is used to cool the cyliner head. Oil the bottom end. DME targets different cydlinder heads temps to vary power output... excessive oil temps prevent dme from doing this effectively. The most direct/effective solution to cooling oil remains the oil cooler. The factory cooler is a tiny 10row cooler. Upgrade it to at least a 26row (2.5x the capacity/surface area and +1ltr oil).

[titium]

Originally Posted by bNks334

This isnt true at all. DME targets HIGHER (230f) coolant temps in traffic, and COOLER coolant temps during performance driving (180f). DME doesnt change coolant target based on ambient temp... You can easily see coolant temps FALL, as the dme targets peak power, while oil temps RISE across a high gear pull.

oh really? care to explain what these tables/values in the dme do?

- Ambient Temp Threshold for High Mode
- Ambient Temp Threshold for High+KFT Mode

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by titium

oh really? care to explain what these tables/values in the dme do?

- Ambient Temp Threshold for High Mode
- Ambient Temp Threshold for High+KFT Mode

That's for the water pump? The dme is still targeting the same temp, but it obviously need to run the pump faster in warmer weather to accomplish that. Or, I am dead wrong??? Only thing I've ever seen from bmw docs is that dme targets a range of coolant temperatures depending on load.

For example, you're car will have coolant temps of 108c on the highway no matter how cool or hot it is out. 100f or 10f. Car still targets 108c.

[titium]

Originally Posted by bNks334

That's for the water pump? The dme is still targeting the same temp, but it obviously need to run the pump faster in warmer weather to accomplish that. Or, I am dead wrong??? Only thing I've ever seen from bmw docs is that dme targets a range of coolant temperatures depending on load.

You're car will have coolant temps of 108c on the highway no matter how cool or hot it is out. 100f or 10f. Car still targets 108c.

yes its for the waterpump.

and it does taget different temps when there is a higher ambient temp based on those threshold values and what they are set at. 32C/90F from the factory I believe.

I've seen it myself 40C/104F day my oil temps sit 10 degrees or so cooler then on cooler days.


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1126481&page=3. have a read of jyamona's post on page 3 of this linked thread if you don't believe me....

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by titium

yes its for the waterpump.

and it does taget different temps when there is a higher ambient temp based on those threshold values and what they are set at. 32C/90F from the factory I believe.

I've seen it myself 40C/104F day my oil temps sit 10 degrees or so cooler then on cooler days.


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1126481&page=3. have a read of jyamona's post on page 3 of this linked thread if you don't believe me....

No... you've got it wrong lol The car does not change its target coolant temps based on ambient. The setpoint tables are load to rpm based. Reducing coolant temps, and therefore oil temps, is achieved indirectly by modifying the water pump setpoint tables and the coolant to load tables you've pointed me to...

[titium]

"ambient temp threshold" that name/label is pretty clear and unambiguous I would have thought. I'll leave this here. Believe what you want. I've provided you with all the data yet you still are convinced you're correct.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by titium

"ambient temp threshold" that name/label is pretty clear and unambiguous I would have thought. I'll leave this here. Believe what you want. I've provided you with all the data yet you still are convinced you're correct.

No, you just don't understand the data. All that table does is spin the water pump faster at a certain ambient temp. That does not mean actual coolant temps will change one bit. The coolant target temp is establish via the load to rpm tables.

This has been popted up 100 time, but I'll leave it here so you can read up on the concept being achieved by the specific tables you keep quoting:

The engine cooling system utilizes an electric coolant pump. The heat management determines the current cooling requirement and controls the cooling system accordingly. Under certain circumstances, the coolant pump can be completely switched off, e.g. to rapidly heat up the coolant during the warm-up phase. The coolant pump continues to operate when the hot engine is shut down. The coolant capacity can therefore be varied regardless of the engine speed. In addition to the characteristic map thermostat, the heat management makes it possible to use various characteristic maps for controlling the coolant pump. In this way the engine control unit can adapt the engine temperature to the driving conditions.
The engine control unit regulates the following temperature ranges:
• 108°C/226°F = Economy mode
• 104°C/219°F = Normal mode
• 95°C/203°F = High mode
• 90°C/194°F = High mode and control with characteristic map thermostat
The engine management sets a higher temperature (108°C) when, based on vehicle operation, the engine control unit detects ”Economy” mode. The engine is operated with relatively low fuel requirements in this temperature range. The internal engine friction is reduced at higher temperatures. The increase in temperature therefore results in low fuel consumption in the low load range. The driver wishes to utilize the optimum power devel- oped by the engine in “High and control with characteristic map thermostat” mode. For this purpose, the temperature in the cylinder head is reduced to 90°C. This temperature reduction promotes improved volumetric efficiency, thus resulting in an increased engine torque. Adapted to the relevant driving situation, the engine control unit can now regulate a defined operating range. In this way it is possible to influence the fuel consumption and power output through the cooling system.

If the coolant or the engine oil overheat during operation, certain vehicle functions are influenced to the effect that more energy is available to the engine cooling system.
These measures are divided over two operating modes:
• Component protection
- Coolant temperature between 117°C/242°F and 124°C/255°F
- Engine oil temperature between 150°C/300°F and 157°C/314°F
- Result: The output of the air conditioning system (up to 100%) and of the engine is reduced
• Emergency
- Coolant temperature between 125°C/257°F and 129°C/264°F
- Engine oil temperature between 158°C/316°F and 163°C/325°F
- Result: The power output of the engine is reduced (up to 90%)

I am not saying you can't achieve lower oil temps by spinning the water pump faster and targeting lower coolant temps. I am just saying it doesn't work the way you think are suggesting.

Ambient table is only one piece to the puzzle which as far as I know is not used in the factory dme logic to directly target coolant temps. It wouldn't even make any sense to target coolant temps based purely on ambient lol... it surely would provide 0 benefit over a 20minite track session.

[hot-j]

17-12-7-564-480
64-21-6-983-858

Are the part numbers required.