Which will I love more? 1M or M235?

[CP 1///M]

If I were to compare the M cars to Porsche, the M2 would be like the Cayman S while the M3/M4 like the 911 - Porsche still wouldn't make the Cayman faster than the 911 Turbo so I see BMW marketing thinking the same. 3/4 series have grown to allow the creation of the smaller 1/2 series, but M3 is an iconic badge so they need a little gap with the M2

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Everytime I think about the weight of the M235 I get mad as hell....there is no reason that car should be over 3500 lbs. How are they going to get the M2 under that? Anyone dreaming of a sub 3300 lb weight for the M2 will be sorely disappointed...I am one of them. 3200lb with 380hp would be great, but......

i know. i already thought the 135 was a bit porky at 3373 lbs...but the M235i takes it to absurd levels IMO. No way a 'compact RWD sports coupe' should be 3500+ pounds. It shows a disregard for the 'basics' IMO. I doubt the M2 will lose that much weight to be honest......my guess is it will lose 50 pounds. Hardly enough to make up for the porkiness, IMO.

[david.orr]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

Everytime I think about the weight of the M235 I get mad as hell....there is no reason that car should be over 3500 lbs. How are they going to get the M2 under that? Anyone dreaming of a sub 3300 lb weight for the M2 will be sorely disappointed...I am one of them. 3200lb with 380hp would be great, but......

Originally Posted by IEDEI

i know. i already thought the 135 was a bit porky at 3373 lbs...but the M235i takes it to absurd levels IMO. No way a 'compact RWD sports coupe' should be 3500+ pounds. It shows a disregard for the 'basics' IMO. I doubt the M2 will lose that much weight to be honest......my guess is it will lose 50 pounds. Hardly enough to make up for the porkiness, IMO.

I have no doubt that M Division will trim weight and to this extent, having a porky M235i means the M2 weight loss would be even more stunning (from marketing perspective) when delivered. In any event, the M235i may be heavy but it is still a darn quick and nimble 'cruiser' (and not a M car). Yes, they could possibly have trim weight and done more with the M235 but why set the bar so high for the M2 that when M2 is delivered, the gap from M235 and the wow factor is somewhat diminished?! Just a different opinion.

[jhall1957]

Originally Posted by Nkc

I found no offence with the "haters" comment especially from a guy who I'm assuming is 57.

Easy! I'm only 56! Don't rush me!

[e90post_user]

Originally Posted by nachob

I drove M235i and no longer have 1M so was thinking of buying one. Dissappointed. Soft, quiet, uninspiring.

Throttle response is better and if you are into automatics you might love it more but those are the only two plusses on it's side of the balance sheet.

The rear legroom is slightly better but then you realize that comes with less headroom so I call it a wash.

The steering is ho-hum and did I mention it's soft!

I do remember a bunch of of people ordering loaded 1Ms then trying to add electronic shocks etc. so if you like gadgets, you will absolutely love the 235. I will most likely have to settle for one as 1M prices have left me behind but it will be settling for me. I am still hoping for M2 but again it will have mandatory iDrive and all the push-button suspension, steering and all that other nonsense. If they do that to the M2, then I see no need to pay a premium for it and just take 235i.

Congratulations anyways, two very nice cars.

Oh boy, I could imagine how hard you were hitting yourself when the power steering was introduced, that if you are old enough to remember it or that old to begin with. Must've been devastating when they decided to introduce other gadgets like air bags and ABS.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by e90post_user

Oh boy, I could imagine how hard you were hitting yourself when the power steering was introduced, that if you are old enough to remember it or that old to begin with. Must've been devastating when they decided to introduce other gadgets like air bags and ABS.

Nah. I loved power steering. It came with real performance gains. I actually retrofitted my Scirocco with advanced things at the time like ps because the rack was quicker for auto crossing than manual rack. I also put rear disks on my 80 scirocco because it was an improvement in performance. Soft suspension with comfort settings and a big display in the line of sight and and an extra 200 lbs more than my 4 door sedan are not performance benefits. Not sure why you don't understand that. What makes the 1M special is agreed upon by most to be rawness. All the fluffy stuff takes away from that. So if the M2 is focused and raw and firmer and lighter then it will be worth the money to me. But if they make it just a more powerful yet soft and over gadgetized M235 then the 235 is a great value. I'm sorry I can't dumb it down and over simplify it for you more than that.

[FIRSTM]

lol be nice boys...

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by e90post_user

Oh boy, I could imagine how hard you were hitting yourself when the power steering was introduced, that if you are old enough to remember it or that old to begin with. Must've been devastating when they decided to introduce other gadgets like air bags and ABS.

power steering DID slightly reduce driving experience as compared to cars before it. Have you ever driven a sports car from the 60s or 70s? they had amazing steering feedback with lots of communication. Power steering reduced the effort needed of the driver to enter input, HOWEVER still allowed a mechanical rack to supply output and feedback to the driver. Having a mechanical link is very different to not having one------a far cry from comparing 'power steering' to unassisted steering, IMO.

The reality is that electric steering is being done to increase emissions and NOT being done to increase performance.

Power steering, on the other hand, was done to help the driver have more control at the expense of decreasing some feedback. It also led to enhanced performance. Electric steering is not leading to any performance increase----it is only leading to a dumbing down of the driving experience, IMO. Apples to oranges.

Airbags are a safety device...not really worth discussing or mentioning.

ABS brakes automated a certain process which used to be manual. BUT it also enhanced performance AND safety with not much of a change in terms of 'enjoyment'.

Steering and transmission are two very "enjoyment"-oriented parts of a car. Both have been dumbed down as of late. The frankly average torque converted pseudo-DCT ZF transmission (yes i've driven them) and the numb electric steering.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

power steering DID slightly reduce driving experience as compared to cars before it. Have you ever driven a sports car from the 60s or 70s? they had amazing steering feedback with lots of communication. Power steering reduced the effort needed of the driver to enter input, HOWEVER still allowed a mechanical rack to supply output and feedback to the driver. Having a mechanical link is very different to not having one------a far cry from comparing 'power steering' to unassisted steering, IMO.

The reality is that electric steering is being done to increase emissions and NOT being done to increase performance.

Power steering, on the other hand, was done to help the driver have more control at the expense of decreasing some feedback. It also led to enhanced performance. Electric steering is not leading to any performance increase----it is only leading to a dumbing down of the driving experience, IMO. Apples to oranges.

Airbags are a safety device...not really worth discussing or mentioning.

ABS brakes automated a certain process which used to be manual. BUT it also enhanced performance AND safety with not much of a change in terms of 'enjoyment'.

Steering and transmission are two very "enjoyment"-oriented parts of a car. Both have been dumbed down as of late. The frankly average torque converted pseudo-DCT ZF transmission (yes i've driven them) and the numb electric steering.

Thank you! Yes!

Everything has a cost and a benefit. Technology that improves performance is great. Many of the new technologies as you have so acutely stated are not to improve the driving experience but for another reason.

ABS is one of the greatest inventions ever but it does not take away from the driving experience.

Traction control is great too as long as you can turn it off at the track.

I love VANOS and VTEC, and full engine torque at 1800 RPM!

I love direct injection, man you can run 10.5-1 compression in a turbo motor....WOW. Amazing performance tech! Bring it on!

I love water to air intercooler in M3...less plumbing, less lag! Oh baby give me more GOOD TECH!

Tire pressure monitors...OMG, what took them so long? Anyone that drives spirited and dives into a cloverleaf every now and then loves knowing that there is air in your tires! I actually was about to retrofit my old 325i when the 1M came out. When I bought autocross rims and tires for the 1M, I added TPMS at extra expense because they bring so much safety with no performance hit!

HIDs, LEDs...more light with less electrical load on the engine....awesome stuff.

I love all of this stuff that make the car perform better without a huge penalty on driving dynamics. I love sunroof in the family car but willing to sacrifice it to reduce weight.

I love the Memory seats in my ZHP because my 5'2" wife drives the car sometimes but that is a family car. In the 1M, which I consider a sports coupe, the weight gain of the power seats and over 1 inch in headroom lost was not worth the memory option to me. It doesn't mean I don't love it, but I want a sports coupe that is lighter.

Now there is nothing wrong with this stuff on luxury cars but it in sports coupes and sports cars, the emphasis should be more slanted toward raw performance and the tech should support that goal.

[CP 1///M]

Just curious how many of you have the 1M as a secondary car? That to me dictates the options list - being my only car, I wanted more creature comfort hence I only look for fully loaded cars. If I had another car and keep the 1M more like a track toy maybe I would have gone with a bucket and no Navi. The thought of driving the 1M through the rainy North West weather plus potential snow (albeit fairly infrequent) kind of bothered me but not enough to deter me from getting one, but I would say I do think about having a "winter beater" more than once

[JeffyD]

^--- These guys have it. I agree mostly.

I'm from a younger generation than many "purists" are normally found in, and so my viewpoint doesn't hail from any pretense of nostalgia or stubborn learned preferences of older, or even obsolete, tech. Hell, I wasn't even into cars until around my 22nd birthday, and I started the interest with little to no knowledge or bias beyond the fact my '94 Toyota Tercel was incredibly good at enduring the abuse that only an idiotic teenager could inflict on a car.

With that pointed out, I can say that, I, too, feel like so many of today's modern cars are sporty in pretense only. Yes, that are extraordinarily capable in performance categories - packing plenty in terms of go, stop, turn, and all that lies in between.

They also seem to have packed in a great deal of features that are aimed squarely at the "congested commute, I'm bored" aspect of driving. This is a common fact of life for many, and, understandably, it can be a godsend to spend such tedious miles in a cabin with plenty of options that offer relief and comfort for an unstimulated occupant.

A car that is a heavy hitter in every measurable performance category feature such creature comforts due to the price brackets they find themselves in. The average consumer looking for da hpz n torx n stuff, when confronted with an MSRP hovering at an average household's income, is going to scoff at a car with less do dads than a mid level Kia.

So every infotainment feature is going to be in there. Seats? Dude, the 405S in the morning is a zoo, and I have back problems that only a 2800 way adjustable power seat can deal with. Moonroof? Make it a sunroof. Panoramic? Duh. Glare sucks when I'm heading home east after work, so imma need a sunshade. Make it powered, cause I need to impress my grillin' pals that one time they need a lift. My Red Bull gets cold, so try to throw a fridge in there. PS - anything less than 24 THX-certified speakers, and no sale. And throw some 20" spinnas on dat mofo. I

... And, duh, make it an M/AMG/Quattro/ST/omgfast model so people can marvel at the rolling piece of depreciating Next Big Thing I'm seen in.

Fine. But then there are the dummy options that seem to only accommodate idiots who have no business driving anything faster or heavier than a shopping cart (uphill.) These, in my humble opinion, are nonsense such as "lane assist," "alertness monitor," "speed limit info," "blind spot indicator," ad nauseum. Yeah, sure - they are "wow, new" and glitzy. But, while they promise new levels of safety, they seemingly only provide more undeserved confidence in those with lackluster driving skills - making inept road dangers focus even less on the act of driving. Most of us lived for many years before these aids, and some do even now on a frequent basis. I have no idea why they seemingly are now beginning to be forced included with other, actually useful, features.

Not to mention blind spot indicators seem to be both a lame band aid for poor pillar layouts and driver visibility, and also a license to extend such poor designs to their extremes.

I admit that an argument can be made to check all of those boxes on a family mobile or vanilla DDer, but they really shouldn't be a factor when designing the "sporty"-centric model specifically or supposedly aimed at a more enthusiast based demographic.

Making a car with a smaller footprint is conducive for "less" in a great deal of other areas. So, as most cars today are more and more massive, so much high priced material is needed simply to reduce weight to within 20ish pounds of a smaller car that made use of no such stuff. Hmm.

To me, the 1M, overall, is probably as big of a car as I'm comfortable going - regardless of form factor. Heck, I wouldn't even mind it being smaller if dynamics were able to be retained.

And, that, is what leads me to the main point - driving dynamics. All the power in the world is wasted if it can't be utilized in fun ways. Fun, in this case and for many, usually entails a feeling of connectedness and response to and from the car's components. Tactile feedback, and the controls to respond to such adequately. To me, there's more fun from a drive if I get a sense of satisfaction that comes from using my learned skill to pull off a maneuver than simply it being done automagically. To me, a 318ti is more fun to screw around in a canyon in than a more powerful current 3 series.

TL;DR - bloated cars are too big these days, and all the crud making them huge and "easier" is what is causing the lack of actual sportiness versus big numbered specs.

PS - post length due to distracting myself from class lecture. Thx internet.

[CP 1///M]

TL;DR - cars getting too big and smaller car just don't deliver the performance to weight AND size of all these bigger cars

JeffyD - funny you mention size, as I chose to ignore E9x 3 series for that exact reason: the 1 series BMW is just about the max I would go (and I get people asking why not the S65 powered M3 as it's more balanced). I have test drove an V6 turbo S5 (which is slightly bigger than E9x), the 2 and 4 series (and funny how I found both to be roughly the same size when inside, even though the 4 series is roughly the same size as the E9x) - if I don't go into indoor mall parking I might be fine but the minute you ever needed to go indoors, I would avoid driving the above-mentioned vehicles. M235i maybe, 4 series not so much which kind of defeats the purpose of having a car if you avoid driving it unless it's the perfect condition.

I think that if an M235i works as the only car for you, you could have picked just about any other German cars of the same price bracket and you wouldn't be too fuzzed about it. Driving the 1M kind of draws out an emotion that you just don't feel from the M235i - but I would say I would like to drive it for a full week before saying otherwise.

Hard not to beat this one to death though...

[Nkc]

Originally Posted by JeffyD

^--- These guys have it. I agree mostly.

I'm from a younger generation than many "purists" are normally found in, and so my viewpoint doesn't hail from any pretense of nostalgia or stubborn learned preferences of older, or even obsolete, tech. Hell, I wasn't even into cars until around my 22nd birthday, and I started the interest with little to no knowledge or bias beyond the fact my '94 Toyota Tercel was incredibly good at enduring the abuse that only an idiotic teenager could inflict on a car.

With that pointed out, I can say that, I, too, feel like so many of today's modern cars are sporty in pretense only. Yes, that are extraordinarily capable in performance categories - packing plenty in terms of go, stop, turn, and all that lies in between.

They also seem to have packed in a great deal of features that are aimed squarely at the "congested commute, I'm bored" aspect of driving. This is a common fact of life for many, and, understandably, it can be a godsend to spend such tedious miles in a cabin with plenty of options that offer relief and comfort for an unstimulated occupant.

A car that is a heavy hitter in every measurable performance category feature such creature comforts due to the price brackets they find themselves in. The average consumer looking for da hpz n torx n stuff, when confronted with an MSRP hovering at an average household's income, is going to scoff at a car with less do dads than a mid level Kia.

So every infotainment feature is going to be in there. Seats? Dude, the 405S in the morning is a zoo, and I have back problems that only a 2800 way adjustable power seat can deal with. Moonroof? Make it a sunroof. Panoramic? Duh. Glare sucks when I'm heading home east after work, so imma need a sunshade. Make it powered, cause I need to impress my grillin' pals that one time they need a lift. My Red Bull gets cold, so try to throw a fridge in there. PS - anything less than 24 THX-certified speakers, and no sale. And throw some 20" spinnas on dat mofo. I

... And, duh, make it an M/AMG/Quattro/ST/omgfast model so people can marvel at the rolling piece of depreciating Next Big Thing I'm seen in.

Fine. But then there are the dummy options that seem to only accommodate idiots who have no business driving anything faster or heavier than a shopping cart (uphill.) These, in my humble opinion, are nonsense such as "lane assist," "alertness monitor," "speed limit info," "blind spot indicator," ad nauseum. Yeah, sure - they are "wow, new" and glitzy. But, while they promise new levels of safety, they seemingly only provide more undeserved confidence in those with lackluster driving skills - making inept road dangers focus even less on the act of driving. Most of us lived for many years before these aids, and some do even now on a frequent basis. I have no idea why they seemingly are now beginning to be forced included with other, actually useful, features.

Not to mention blind spot indicators seem to be both a lame band aid for poor pillar layouts and driver visibility, and also a license to extend such poor designs to their extremes.

I admit that an argument can be made to check all of those boxes on a family mobile or vanilla DDer, but they really shouldn't be a factor when designing the "sporty"-centric model specifically or supposedly aimed at a more enthusiast based demographic.

Making a car with a smaller footprint is conducive for "less" in a great deal of other areas. So, as most cars today are more and more massive, so much high priced material is needed simply to reduce weight to within 20ish pounds of a smaller car that made use of no such stuff. Hmm.

To me, the 1M, overall, is probably as big of a car as I'm comfortable going - regardless of form factor. Heck, I wouldn't even mind it being smaller if dynamics were able to be retained.

And, that, is what leads me to the main point - driving dynamics. All the power in the world is wasted if it can't be utilized in fun ways. Fun, in this case and for many, usually entails a feeling of connectedness and response to and from the car's components. Tactile feedback, and the controls to respond to such adequately. To me, there's more fun from a drive if I get a sense of satisfaction that comes from using my learned skill to pull off a maneuver than simply it being done automagically. To me, a 318ti is more fun to screw around in a canyon in than a more powerful current 3 series.

TL;DR - bloated cars are too big these days, and all the crud making them huge and "easier" is what is causing the lack of actual sportiness versus big numbered specs.

PS - post length due to distracting myself from class lecture. Thx internet.

Couldn't agree more. That's probably why we have the same cars lol.

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

power steering DID slightly reduce driving experience as compared to cars before it. Have you ever driven a sports car from the 60s or 70s? they had amazing steering feedback with lots of communication. Power steering reduced the effort needed of the driver to enter input, HOWEVER still allowed a mechanical rack to supply output and feedback to the driver. Having a mechanical link is very different to not having one------a far cry from comparing 'power steering' to unassisted steering, IMO.

The reality is that electric steering is being done to increase emissions and NOT being done to increase performance.

Yes, feedback is best with no power steering, and so are emissions. Here is why electric power steering is still preferable in most cases:

1) Reducing driving experience may mean reducing comfort to some and reducing feedback to others.

2) With electronic power steering "performance" can be increased by actively dampening speed wobbles (tank slappers) as well as under- and over-steer. The steering wheel is "simply" pushed in the direction that increases stability. BMW does this by letting the electronic steering communication with the DSC sensors. As with hydraulic systems, performance can also be increased by increasing the assistance so that the wheels are easier to turn quickly.

3) With electronic power steering "comfort" can be increased by selectively filtering out vibrations and imperfect road-surfaces so that they are not felt by the driver. The car will simply continue in the selected direction and you can drive with just one finger on the wheel. Comfort can also be decreased by disabling some of the filtering (this is what typically happens when you go from normal/comfort mode and instead select DSC=off or sport+). So you can have both types of steering experiences in the same car.

With electronic power steering the steering wheel is still connected directly to the wheels and works even if all other systems are turned off. If some feedback is not provided, it is because the engineers designed the electric system to not provide it. And most of it would be software determined, because the software could, in fact, turn all power assistance off, if it wanted to.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

Yes, feedback is best with no power steering, and so are emissions. Here is why electric power steering is still preferable in most cases:

1) Reducing driving experience may mean reducing comfort to some and reducing feedback to others.

2) With electronic power steering "performance" can be increased by actively dampening speed wobbles (tank slappers) as well as under- and over-steer. The steering wheel is "simply" pushed in the direction that increases stability. BMW does this by letting the electronic steering communication with the DSC sensors. As with hydraulic systems, performance can also be increased by increasing the assistance so that the wheels are easier to turn quickly.

3) With electronic power steering "comfort" can be increased by selectively filtering out vibrations and imperfect road-surfaces so that they are not felt by the driver. The car will simply continue in the selected direction and you can drive with just one finger on the wheel. Comfort can also be decreased by disabling some of the filtering (this is what typically happens when you go from normal/comfort mode and instead select DSC=off or sport+). So you can have both types of steering experiences in the same car.

With electronic power steering the steering wheel is still connected directly to the wheels and works even if all other systems are turned off. If some feedback is not provided, it is because the engineers designed the electric system to not provide it. And most of it would be software determined, because the software could, in fact, turn all power assistance off, if it wanted to.

ha! no thanks! i don't need a 'comfort' mode!

i just want great, direct steering all the time. Don't need an EPS to do that for me at this time.....it cannot actually.