Warming up the car?

[shah269]

You know this is always a complicated issue.
On one hand it's ok to just drive.....if you don’t want to keep your car for say 100k miles.

If you do then it’s a different story.
1) Oil pressure, starts off at 0 then gets a bit high then comes back to nominal when the oil heats up.
So on a cold day hitting the star button and hammering on her is not the best idea. Usually it's understood that about 30 seconds is enough for oil to reach all the critical parts and get things lubricated and floating.
But then you are in a catch 22, sure things are lubricated but due to the oil being cooler it has higher density and thus "weighs" more on the system. So you have to wait for the oil to heat up and the oil pressure to get to where you want it.

This is where the drive slowly comes from. You see by keeping the PRM's low/ short shift, you are in effect preventing over pressurizing the system. Oil pressure good, keeps oil moving and things floating. Too much oil pressure bad it puts excess strain on things such as seals and over time they may fail on you.

So call it 30seconds to get the oil moving and another few miles to heat that oil up to where it needs to be. I turn my car on, walk back in and grab my coffee and bag and by the time I get into the car she is calm and we start off. A stop light later she starts to warm up.

2) Cooling down. Less than 5% of all cars will ever see a track day in their entire life. Unless you own an Atom or Radical or some sort of track car odds are the car will never ever see the track. So this driving around with your right foot to the floor over a long period of time thing is a bit of a crock. But you may be doing things that are equal to it. If you engine break, as I do, you are introducing heat to the system. If you are jack rabbit running from one light to the next you are introducing heat to the system. Turbo's love to run at constant pressure and temperatures for hours and hours on end. They don't really like being hammered on. So how does one go about cooling their car? Well if you did a track day, let the car run for a two min. If you just got off the highway and pulled in give it a good 30seconds. My old VW had this second air blower that when it kicked on I knew that the turbo was on it's way to being cooled down. Took all of a min.

But the key to all this is how you drive and oil changes.
If you drive like you are in an F1 race....that will cause issues with the heating and cooling of the turbos. If you are a little more smooth then there are no issue.


Turbos aside, another key parameter that you should think about with respect to heating your car up in the morning is that warm parts absorb energy a little better than colder parts. So those pipes and all the bolts and nuts and fasteners were designed to run when they are warm. So if you have an ice cold car and are whacking it around like a WRC car expect some of those parts to not last as long.

And another thing, trust your right hand. If you are shifting and it feels as if you are churning concrete odds are the car isn't warmed up yet. Trust your gut and what you feel a little more than the instruments in front of you.

[Redadair]

Three keys to engine longevity, and reduced oil consumption.

Let engine idle for 30 seconds before starting off with a cold engine. (Regardless of outside ambient temp)

Don't drive hard, (full throttle) until Oil Temp reaches Normal Operating Temp.

Let engine cool down for 30 seconds, (1 Minute if tracked) prior to turning off engine.

Old School Rules to live by.

[Simsims]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Then educate me if you think im ignorant. Dont just make a snarky comment

http://bit.ly/ye7X8q

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by Simsims

http://bit.ly/ye7X8q

OMG...lol

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Simsims

http://bit.ly/ye7X8q

yeah I didnt read that because youre still being snarky.
Let me google that for you? lol I havent seen that since high school, is it that hard to write a paragraph since you try to seem so informed?

Ill write one...because this thread is basically dead and lets try to have a non-childish discussion, shall we?

Write endurance makes a difference when youre in a field, such as my engineering one, where things are changing constantly. I understand that the endurance is up to millions of cycles on the data centers, but the fact of the matter is over the 4-5 years that I normally keep a computer there is a chance that I will write individual cells that many times.

I have no problem keeping my OS on an SSD for quick bootups, but when I am constantly running Matlab, AutoCAD, excel, and any number of other programs where im constantly updating value, changing shapes, and generally editing a file and saving, hundreds, thousands, of times write endurance can become an issue for me. Theres a reason why Win 7 and Vista dont run the auto-defrag scripts when they detect an SSD, and its because of write endurance.

Its a lot better than it was a few years ago, theyre up to millions of cycle on an individual cell. But unless the facts have changed dramatically since last August when I bought a new computer and researched it heavily than im gonna go ahead and keep believing what I believe currently.

So until you actually answer my question im gonna go ahead and keep assuming that youre being snarky for the sake of being snarky.

[Simsims]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

yeah I didnt read that because youre still being snarky.
Let me google that for you? lol I havent seen that since high school, is it that hard to write a paragraph since you try to seem so informed?

Ill write one...because this thread is basically dead and lets try to have a non-childish discussion, shall we?

Write endurance makes a difference when youre in a field, such as my engineering one, where things are changing constantly. I understand that the endurance is up to millions of cycles on the data centers, but the fact of the matter is over the 4-5 years that I normally keep a computer there is a chance that I will write individual cells that many times.

I have no problem keeping my OS on an SSD for quick bootups, but when I am constantly running Matlab, AutoCAD, excel, and any number of other programs where im constantly updating value, changing shapes, and generally editing a file and saving, hundreds, thousands, of times write endurance can become an issue for me. Theres a reason why Win 7 and Vista dont run the auto-defrag scripts when they detect an SSD, and its because of write endurance.

Its a lot better than it was a few years ago, theyre up to millions of cycle on an individual cell. But unless the facts have changed dramatically since last August when I bought a new computer and researched it heavily than im gonna go ahead and keep believing what I believe currently.

So until you actually answer my question im gonna go ahead and keep assuming that youre being snarky for the sake of being snarky.

Good SSDs have buffer zones (up to 50%) of the actual marketed size for replacing blocks that are about to fail.

Also, there are algorithms which if a block is read/write often it's moved around the SSD to even out wear and tear

AND, defrag is off on OSs that detects SSD NOT because it wears it out, because SSDs random seek time is near 0. Fragments only makes disk drives slow, not SSDs.

Please don't pretend you know anything about SSDs, and no, your field's usage of "storage devices" is nothing compared to 500$ for 1GB of flash drive around here. matlab and autocad don't write 10GBs of data onto your drive per day.

[Simsims]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

OMG...lol

I'm really annoyed with this guy sneaking everywhere and pretending he knows just about everything.

Had to do that

[kookieshk]

Originally Posted by shah269

You know this is always a complicated issue.
On one hand it's ok to just drive.....if you don’t want to keep your car for say 100k miles.

If you do then it’s a different story.
1) Oil pressure, starts off at 0 then gets a bit high then comes back to nominal when the oil heats up.
So on a cold day hitting the star button and hammering on her is not the best idea. Usually it's understood that about 30 seconds is enough for oil to reach all the critical parts and get things lubricated and floating.
But then you are in a catch 22, sure things are lubricated but due to the oil being cooler it has higher density and thus "weighs" more on the system. So you have to wait for the oil to heat up and the oil pressure to get to where you want it.

This is where the drive slowly comes from. You see by keeping the PRM's low/ short shift, you are in effect preventing over pressurizing the system. Oil pressure good, keeps oil moving and things floating. Too much oil pressure bad it puts excess strain on things such as seals and over time they may fail on you.

So call it 30seconds to get the oil moving and another few miles to heat that oil up to where it needs to be. I turn my car on, walk back in and grab my coffee and bag and by the time I get into the car she is calm and we start off. A stop light later she starts to warm up.

2) Cooling down. Less than 5% of all cars will ever see a track day in their entire life. Unless you own an Atom or Radical or some sort of track car odds are the car will never ever see the track. So this driving around with your right foot to the floor over a long period of time thing is a bit of a crock. But you may be doing things that are equal to it. If you engine break, as I do, you are introducing heat to the system. If you are jack rabbit running from one light to the next you are introducing heat to the system. Turbo's love to run at constant pressure and temperatures for hours and hours on end. They don't really like being hammered on. So how does one go about cooling their car? Well if you did a track day, let the car run for a two min. If you just got off the highway and pulled in give it a good 30seconds. My old VW had this second air blower that when it kicked on I knew that the turbo was on it's way to being cooled down. Took all of a min.

But the key to all this is how you drive and oil changes.
If you drive like you are in an F1 race....that will cause issues with the heating and cooling of the turbos. If you are a little more smooth then there are no issue.


Turbos aside, another key parameter that you should think about with respect to heating your car up in the morning is that warm parts absorb energy a little better than colder parts. So those pipes and all the bolts and nuts and fasteners were designed to run when they are warm. So if you have an ice cold car and are whacking it around like a WRC car expect some of those parts to not last as long.

And another thing, trust your right hand. If you are shifting and it feels as if you are churning concrete odds are the car isn't warmed up yet. Trust your gut and what you feel a little more than the instruments in front of you.

thank you for providing such great insight! I was just wondering about these things the other day

-kookieshk.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Simsims

Good SSDs have buffer zones (up to 50%) of the actual marketed size for replacing blocks that are about to fail.

Also, there are algorithms which if a block is read/write often it's moved around the SSD to even out wear and tear

AND, defrag is off on OSs that detects SSD NOT because it wears it out, because SSDs random seek time is near 0. Fragments only makes disk drives slow, not SSDs.

Please don't pretend you know anything about SSDs, and no, your field's usage of "storage devices" is nothing compared to 500$ for 1GB of flash drive around here. matlab and autocad don't write 10GBs of data onto your drive per day.

Thats really all I wanted. Thanks for informing me, I never pretending to know everything, im not the upmost authority on everything and I know it. I made a joke, which I now realize was slightly ignorant, you said I was wrong, I said correct me. You were the one who dragged this out and started telling me that I think I know everything.

Originally Posted by Simsims

I'm really annoyed with this guy sneaking everywhere and pretending he knows just about everything.

Had to do that

With all that said I do have a pretty good working knowledge of the N54. Ive been working on it/with it for about 6 years.

And I dont pretend. I honestly thought it was still an issue on SSDs. All I needed was a "yeah thats not right, heres the real answer" No reason why this needed to be dragged out over several posts that took this thread off topic.

But sigh, you had to be snarky.


Anyway thanks for the real answer, guess its time to do some more research.

[Simsims]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Thats really all I wanted. Thanks for informing me, I never pretending to know everything, im not the upmost authority on everything and I know it. I made a joke, which I now realize was slightly ignorant, you said I was wrong, I said correct me. You were the one who dragged this out and started telling me that I think I know everything.



With all that said I do have a pretty good working knowledge of the N54. Ive been working on it/with it for about 6 years.

And I dont pretend. I honestly thought it was still an issue on SSDs. All I needed was a "yeah thats not right, heres the real answer" No reason why this needed to be dragged out over several posts that took this thread off topic.

But sigh, you had to be snarky.


Anyway thanks for the real answer, guess its time to do some more research.

you have good attitude. that's credit.

I'm impatient

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by lcrain

I have always kept it below ~4k rpms until the oil temp needle is in the middle (don't know what temp that actually represents, sorry) and have done this in my previous turbo charged car. Is this completely necessary? Most of my driving during an average day doesn't see the temp reach the middle...which makes the driving rather boring. It takes much longer than my previous car.

Should I worry about it so strictly or what? I would love to start enjoying my drive to work a little more...

Thanks

Start the cold engine. Select your gear, go. Drive with light throttle for first few miles. When you see the oil temp needle move away from it's "cold" position, you can then enjoy your drive. The engine, and oil, will warm up much quicker than if you just sit there idling.

BMW uses full synthetic oil. Synthetic oils retain their viscosity at much lower temps than non synthetic oils. This means synthetic oil flows easily even at near 0F degrees, and most of them much lower than that. That means synthetic oil is flowing and circulating inside your engine even when very cold, and thus it's providing protection to the whirrly bits.

Shutting down the engine, if you haven't been running hard with high boost right before you get home, then you can simply shut the engine down, all will be well.
If you're running hard with high boost right up to your driveway or parking spot, then let the engine idle down and sit at idle for at least a minute or two, then shut if off.
This gives the hot turbo's a chance to spin down while the coolant and oil circulate and remove the extreme heat from being run hot til the last minute.

Stay out of high rpm and high boost for the last mile home and you can safely shut it down with no idling needed. IOW, drive normally for the last mile home and nothing to worry about.

The added technology that BMW has built into these turbo engines is the use of an electric water pump. The pump will run after engine shut down if the sensor detects a very hot temp. The pump provides coolant circulation to the turbo's to remove the heat. When the temp sensor gets to the proper temp the pump shuts off.
The water pump circulating coolant is why there is no need to wait to shut off your engine when driving normally or even moderately. These engines provide maximum torque before 2000 rpm, so even light or moderate driving still generates a good amount of boost. The water pump takes care of excess heat. No need to wait to shut down, no need for a turbo timer.

Also, synthetic oil is much less likely to burn and leave a "coke" residue on your bearings. Coking happens when oil is burned and leaves behind a solid "coke". Oils with higher "ash" content have a greater chance of leaving behind that residue.
The combination of high quality synthetic motor oil and an electric water pump gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing I can just shut my engine off and not worry about it.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Pamlico

On M-Power.com there is an interview with Juergen Schwenker, an M engineer, about the 1M. One of the questions concerns running the turbos at different temperature. Even though the pump circulating water around the turbos can continue to run after the car is switched off, it's not a bad idea to let the car idle for a few minutes before switching off , especially after a hard run.

"Are there rules for running the turbo when cold, or is this an "urban legend”?
This is no urban legend - the turbocharger comes under high thermal stress and can become red-hot when running under maximum load. The charger is lubricated and cooled by means of the engine oil. Cooling is also achieved by means of the cooling water, so that the pump for this is allowed to continue to run as necessary. Nonetheless, the oil can tend to coke in the bearings if the engine is switched off under extreme conditions. The problem described can occur after maximum stresses, as on the racetrack for example. There is no doubt that, after a longer period of use at full throttle, it would do no harm to allow the car a chance to cool down under normal conditions. The instructions in the operating manual should be observed."

Sound advice from a M engineer, if you're tracking your car or running very hard on the street right up to your driveway.
But, don't take advice as something that needs to be applied to daily driving.

Often, people will take advice like this an take it to mean that that is what they need to do for their everyday driving, like saying, "it's not a bad idea..., especially after a hard run".
What the engineer actually said is that if/when you are driving under extreme conditions, like racing, then it's a good idea to idle the engine before shut down. He didn't say that it IS a good idea to always idle the engine before shut down. He said that under certain "extreme" conditions it is a good idea to idle before shut down. There is a qualifying condition to when to idle and when it's not necessary.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by DarthColin

I had to add a litre of oil to my car a while back. Was watching the electronic oil gauge, then it finally required a top up. While I was doing that, I noticed some light brown "gunk" around the oil filler cap. I happened to be talking to the service manager, and mentioned it to him. He told me that in our climate, (southern Saskatchewan, think Minnesota winter), it is a good idea to let the car warm up for a few minutes before driving off. Also said very common with cars they see in the shop. Something to think about. Before, I did the same as everyone else, and what manual says. In summer, start and drive, slowly at first. If colder, let warm up for a bit then set off gently.
CM

That gunk is a mixture of condensation and oil. It is caused by not running the engine long enough to burn off the condensation.
Idling longer at start up won't prevent this. Driving long enough to get the engine to up full temp, and then some time longer, will help prevent this.

Again, driving very soon after start up allows the engine to get up to it's full temperature MUCH sooner than sitting there idling and burning more fuel for no good reason. Plus, when it's cold you want heat from the vents, well, the best and fastest way to get that is to drive.

[sparkyblue]

Wow, I guess I've been extremely conservative and cautious. I dont go above 2.5k RPM's until the oil temp moved at least two clicks. Which takes approx 10-15 minutes. I like to baby my N54.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

There is no technical reason to wait as far as I know. But I do wait most of the times to enjoy the cold start sound in all its glory and in full concentration. When the sound lowers down I tell myself the same thing and start driving as sane as possible

Still in love with the startup music. I listen every time! :-)

[lcrain]

Originally Posted by sparkyblue

Wow, I guess I've been extremely conservative and cautious. I dont go above 2.5k RPM's until the oil temp moved at least two clicks. Which takes approx 10-15 minutes. I like to baby my N54.

This is how I drove my previous turbo charged car (except it was 3.5k). Honestly I will often never see 250 degrees oil temp with my 1m, even on a 3.5 hour drive. This car takes forever to warm up. On my normal commute I don't drive fast anyways so most days this isn't an issue. When I get a "wild hare" I will just make sure the needle has moved as many have stated above.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by lcrain

This is how I drove my previous turbo charged car (except it was 3.5k). Honestly I will often never see 250 degrees oil temp with my 1m, even on a 3.5 hour drive. This car takes forever to warm up. On my normal commute I don't drive fast anyways so most days this isn't an issue. When I get a "wild hare" I will just make sure the needle has moved as many have stated above.

Use the 0W 40 oil instead of 5W 30 or 0W 30 (all three are authorised by BMW for our cars, written in the Manual) and you will notice that warming up will be quicker, much quicker.