Brakes improvement : 1M / M3 brakes on E8x

[Fidiman]

Hi guys ! All is in the title


I would like to know if it would be possible to put these 1M / M3 brakes on the standard E82 without changing the hub.

The aim is to have a better braking force, with a lighter car. For sure some big brake kits would be better, I know, but the prince won't be the same. I think that these calipers, if they are more powerful than the standard Brembo 6 pots and / or 4 pots ones, could be a good alternative. In fact, for a car wich is 200kg lighter than an M3, wich has towards 300 and 400hp, it will be enough even for track session thanks to good brake pads (Pagid, Carbone Lorraine and so on), steel brake lines and RBF600.

Moreover, they won't have the issue of the calipers of the 135i or of the Performance kit, they will be even lighter, wich is better for unsprung weght.

I think, they will be several solutions :
- to fit them on the OEM hub thanks to a sort of custom made wedge to get some centimeters of clearance and conserve the OEM M3 disc (but bye bye my 17" winter wheels)
- to fit them thanks to the calipers supports of 330/335d : I would be able to fit some 348mm discs with a 52mm piston (but one again bye bye my 17" winter wheels)
- to fit them thanks to the calipers supports of 330d (231hp) : I would be able to fit some 330mm discs with a 52mm piston (will it fit ? I don't know ...)

If you have any thought, any input, remark or what ever, let me know it please I'm interested in completeing this little project.


Fidiman

[chris82]

It just doesn't seem worth the trouble, because you won't be seeing much benefit. How fast your car can stop has to do with the amount of grip your tires have, not how big your rotors are. You'd only want to upgrade your brakes if you want them to last longer, which would apply to a track situation only, and in that case you just upgrade to high temp brake fluid and a race pad.

Not sure if you have considered this, but a really cheap BBK for the E8x is to get the calipers, rotors, hardware from the 335i. That's a direct swap as both cars use the same master cylinder. the 1M and M3 use different master cylinders, so the brake bias will be messed up if you put those on a non-M car.

[Fidiman]

I know that the capacity of braking is mainly due to the tires you're using. I'm actually on Michelin Pilot Super Sport and I'm planing to get a set of tires for the track (eg: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Toyo R888, and so on ...). I already have racing brake fluid (and should replace it because it has a bit more than one year). For the racing brake pads, it will mainly depends on the brakes it will be installed, but I really would like to test the Pagid RS29 ...

You and I get the same master cylinder, it's the same for 120d/125i/128i. With the complete BMW Performance kit, our OEM MC will be enough regarding to the experiment of andrey_gta who get them on his 128i. Moreover, a friend of mine with a strong mechanic background explained me why it should be enough. Moreover we have the same quantity of brake fluid than the M3.

The most important point is the size of the piston(s) caliper and the size of the one in the master cylinder. By the way I don't know how large is it on the Performance brakes kit neither on the 335i brakes.

Yeah, the 335i brakes would be the best and cheapest solution, but I would like to know if they will be better than the Performance ones ... In addition, I saw it exists some two pieces rotors for them, which can be a good solution to lower the in sprung weight (in addition of the hypothetical Apex ARC-8 I will buy).

I was talking with Andrey yesterday and we decided that the choice from the cheapest to the more expensive solution would be :
- 335i brakes
- Performance brakes
- F30 not painted brakes
- Perf brakes with CSL rotors
- Porsche
- aftermarket BBK
The problem with the M3/1M brakes would be the size of the rotor hat ... I don't know if it would be plug'n'play on the actual hub ... If not, I would be f****d ! I was considering this solution, because in Germany I can have them for 400-500€ incl. shipping costs !

For larger discs (which can be adapted on my hub) and calipers, I may have to machine a custom bracket ...

What's your point of view considering all we said ?

[Pyrat 2]

There are a few threads on this topic. This is all chartered territory.

[Fidiman]

I know there are some thread on it : it appears that 335i brakes are better than the 135i brakes for several reasons.

I'm just trying to decide of the possibility of mounting these front 1M/M3 brakes on the E82, if not if the combination of M calipers and other discs could fit.

Then regarding to the master cylinder, if it's smaller, the pressure in the brake lines will increase. That's not that bad. Here is something form Stoptech website :
"1) Line pressure can only be increased by either increasing the mechanical pedal ratio or by decreasing the master cylinder diameter. In either case the pedal travel will be increased.
2) Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.
3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque."

It's said that if the travel of the pedal increases but the braking force increases ... I'm trying to imagine what could be the feeling ...


Edit : Any idea guys of the manufacturer of the OEM 335i calipers ? I know that ATE does the rear, but the front ones ? Tried to search but without succes ... In addition, I toke a look at threads where people changed their pads or painted their calipers, but I was not able to see any brands on them

[Pyrat 2]

I bought beck arnley remanufactured 335 calipers. They were about 85 a piece.

[Fidiman]

I know I can find OEM-like quality, but I would like to find the OEM one. I finally saw that ATE was producing the 335i calipers ... But impossible to buy it brand new on the web (it's even not in their catalog ...).

I can buy Triscan calipers which can replace the ATE one here in France or some other calipers from other brands, but I would be frightened they are not ATE/BMW quality ! But that's almost half the price ...

[Fidiman]

A little double post just to inform you I will go to the M135i F2x brakes route I had them with 20 000km and Endless pads for the same price than 335i brakes ...

When I will have time, I will mount them and review the upgrade. Should be a nive one. I will also post some calculations I did later.

Should be better tham the 6 pot brakes !

[houtan]

nice. looking forward to hearing the results.

[slonik]

i've made custom brake kits for our 135 and mate's 1M.

6 pot brembo calipers were modified from lug mount to radial, for using them with simple brackets on 1m/m3 oem rotors (floating 360x30mm).
caliper mount modification was done on cnc. after mod, caliper weight 3.2kgs.

this calipers has almost the same design, as brembo gt calipers (same pads etc), so we have many options of pads compound.

full upgrade cost was under 2k$ (without rotors) - pair of new brembo calipers, mounts modification, respraying (with logo), pair of custom brackets (aircraft aluminum) and ferodo racing pads.

i've already tested them on 135, works really great on track and in street usage.


red calipers on 135 and set with yellows- for 1m.

i can post some pics on car later.

[Clovef]

I'm interested in those. What more can you tell me about why you picked those calipers? Are you selling any kits?

[slonik]

I'm interested in those. What more can you tell me about why you picked those calipers? Are you selling any kits?

on stock 1m floating rotors, 360mm. one of the conditions were compatibility with winter 18 inch wheels.







and yes, if you interested, i can make it again with no problem (for both ///m and non-m models).

[Solo_M_Tech]

I'm still curious about why the 335i brake caliper is considered better than the brembo? ALL aftermarket BBK have fixed calipers, not floating calipers. I know the stock 135i brembos have shitty caliper pistons that fail under alot of heat. Besides that and the heavier weight (compared to the brembo calipers above) why would you use the 335i caliper?

Edit, I'd be interested in a set of the above brembo calipers designed for the 135i hub.

[Pyrat 2]

Not sure that I would say that the 335 caliper is better or worse than the 135 caliper. The 335 rotor is 348mm by 30 mm. The 135i rotor is 338 by 26mm. The rotor plus caliper combo on the 135 has trouble dissipating the heat when on the track. The extra diameter and width of the 335 rotor helps eliminate that extra heat.

[Stress]

Originally Posted by slonik

i've made custom brake kits for our 135 and mate's 1M.

6 pot brembo calipers were modified from lug mount to radial, for using them with simple brackets on 1m/m3 oem rotors (floating 360x30mm).
caliper mount modification was done on cnc. after mod, caliper weight 3.2kgs.

this calipers has almost the same design, as brembo gt calipers (same pads etc), so we have many options of pads compound.

full upgrade cost was under 2k$ (without rotors) - pair of new brembo calipers, mounts modification, respraying (with logo), pair of custom brackets (aircraft aluminum) and ferodo racing pads.

i've already tested them on 135, works really great on track and in street usage.


red calipers on 135 and set with yellows- for 1m.

i can post some pics on car later.

PM Sent:

I really like the idea of the Brembo calipers combined with OEM 1M/M3 rotors and that they still fit inside 18" OEM wheels. Not too sure about shipping from Russia though.

[slonik]

I really like the idea of the Brembo calipers combined with OEM 1M/M3 rotors and that they still fit inside 18" OEM wheels.

i also have easiest way for upgrade to 19" wheels brake setup- 380mm rotors from new m4. in this case you only need some small spacers between caliper and bracket, to move it for 10mm further on radius, so you can use same brackets, on larger rotors.

larger brackets made specially for 380mm also not a problem, but in this way you can't use them on 360mm rotors.

[juld0zer]

There is one advantage of a sliding/floating caliper - piston knockback effects are nowhere near as bad as they are on fixed caliper brakes.