For those doing mods: worried about voiding factory warranty?

[nachob]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

This is where Dinan may be the best aftermarket option. If the dealer confirms the failure was due to Dinan parts.. then Dinan picks up the tab.. In the case of any other company parts for engine mods, in order to prove that your aftermarket mod did not cause the problem.... A Cause and origin (C&O) expert would likely have to be hired.. and it may take legal action and attorneys etc on top of that.. . A C & O inspection/report runs about $750-1250 at a minimum! so you would be out this just to begin to prove your case.

+1

Dackel, not sure if you saw this earlier. Gearbox Model number and specs from ZF

1M gearbox is ZF GS6-45BZ

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...21&hg=23&fg=05

It is rated by ZF at 470 NM input torque ( 346.61 lb ft)

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/produ...smission.shtml

(Go to technical information Tab, listed as S6-45)

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ZCP M3

Theres a lot of misinformation out there about Magnuson-Moss. It was a lawsuit about replacing like for like wear components like spark plugs, oil, tires, brake pads, etc. It's NOT a free pass to modify your car and retain your warranty.

True, very true.

OP:
Warranty and modding have been covered extensively in various threads.
Many people misunderstand what the MagMoss warranty act does.
Go and actually read it to understand.

Basically, if you mode the engine, and or ECU, etc...YES it will void the engine warranty, and it could void warranty on the drive line as it's now under more stress than how BMW designed it.

It is not the dealer or manufacturers responsibility to prove that your engine/ECU mod caused the problem. The fact that you modded the engine or ECU, according to your warranty, voids the warranty on the engine. The dealer only has to prove that you modded it, not that the mod caused a problem.
The burden of proof that you didn't mod your engine/ecu is up to the owner.
It may suck but that is the LAW.

MagMoss was not set up to allow owners to mod the engine beyond it's design parameters, and it doesn't force the manufacturer or dealer have to prove that that mod caused the problem.
Read your warranty, as that is what BMW is legally bound by, as is the customer. And read the MagMoss warranty act for proof of what I just wrote. Your warranty clearly states how and why your warranty will be void if you do certain things.

Maintenance items like air filters, oil, tires, oil filters are not mods, as long as they meet the required specs. MagMoss protects you there.
Modding your engine or ECU is a completely different thing.

You've got an awesome automobile that gives you added torque when it can actually be used.
Why not just drive it an enjoy it.
In a few years once the newness has waned and you want a refresh, then do it. I'd go that way if I were that concerned about warranty.
But if you want the added power and need to tinker and tune, then do your best to keep it hidden and go with mods that are easily removed before the tow truck needs to take your BMW to the dealer.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JimD

In Germany maybe BMW can "void the warranty" without damage to the vehicle but they can't in the U. S. (because of Magnuson Moss). If you ask the question a different way, I think the answer is obvious and logical. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it causes damage will BMW cover it under their warranty?" - the answer is no, not if they determine this was the cause. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it doesn't cause any damage, does BMW have to honor the warranty?" , at least in the U. S. the answer is yes.


Jim

Actually Jim according to BMW's warranty, which is a legal commitment, yes they can void the engine warranty if you mod the engine or ECU even if no problem has occurred. As long as the manufacturer is clear in their warranty, which is given to owners, MagMoss doesn't prevent them from doing this.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

OP.... this is explained in the MAGNUSON MOSS WARRANTY ACT which was made law in 1975.
It's amazing how many people (and service departments) get this incorrect, even though it's been around forever.

We're not talking about maintenance items like air filters, oil, lights, etc...
The question here is TUNING, meaning you're doing things to the engine to modify it's base tune.
The main concern is the engine and ECU modification.
MagMoss is clear and so is the BMW warranty.

I see it that most people who use MagMoss as some legal document that allows you to mod to your hearts content, are the ones who don't understand this long standing act and what it was actually created for.
It was not created to protect owners from modding engines and ECU's.

[JimD]

RPM90,

You could be right depending on the circumstances but as broadly as your comment is made, it is not correct. For details of now Magnuson Moss works, this is a useful and short reference:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bu...l-warranty-law

I write contracts and work with lawyers on application of them as part of my job. So I know a little about how this works. You can can write anything into a warranty you want but if it is not in compliance with a state or federal law, it will be thrown out as soon as it is challenged. So the mere fact that BMW says something like "your warranties are void if you modify your car" does not mean that is what will really happen. BMW's lawyers have told them this but it could also work for them depending on the circumstances. It can also scare people into not making a claim.

BMW also has at least a couple issues if they want to try and use this. Magnuson Moss does not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties if you offer a written warranty. So you have a warranty of merchantability regardless of what BMW says. So if the issue on the car is basically that it won't function as a car, then BMW will have to fix it regardless of what their warranty says. They cannot, by law, disclaim this responsibility.

The other issue they have it particularly pertenient to modifications. Magnuson Moss specifically does not allow tie-in sales and the courts have broadly applied this right. A tie in sale would be if they said you only have a warranty if you use all BMW parts. That is probably part of why they have an "acceptable oil" list that shows other types that are OK. If you put a part on the car that came from another supplier, you believe it did not damage the car, but BMW wants to disclaim the warranty - they can be sued under Magneson Moss as, in effect, violating the tie-in sale prohibition. BMW knows this too - if the person you talk to has had the advice of their legal staff.

While perhaps not specific enough, my original comments regarding the key issue being what caused the damage remain valid. If you modify the car and it does not cause damage, BMW has very limited if any right to refuse to repair the car. U. S. federal law does not allow them to just arbitrarily say you have no warranty because you put a non-BMW part on the car. They know this and I suspect they would back off once they know that you know - and it gets to somebody who has had advice of legal counsel. If they continue to refuse, you can legally get the car repaired, sue them for your expenses including your legal expenses. The only issue the court will consider is what caused the damage. The disclaimer you reference is not going to last 5 minutes. BMW would probably not reference it so they don't get a precedent established that is is void.

Jim

[ZCP M3]

Originally Posted by JimD

RPM90,

You could be right depending on the circumstances but as broadly as your comment is made, it is not correct. For details of now Magnuson Moss works, this is a useful and short reference:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bu...l-warranty-law

I write contracts and work with lawyers on application of them as part of my job. So I know a little about how this works. You can can write anything into a warranty you want but if it is not in compliance with a state or federal law, it will be thrown out as soon as it is challenged. So the mere fact that BMW says something like "your warranties are void if you modify your car" does not mean that is what will really happen. BMW's lawyers have told them this but it could also work for them depending on the circumstances. It can also scare people into not making a claim.

BMW also has at least a couple issues if they want to try and use this. Magnuson Moss does not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties if you offer a written warranty. So you have a warranty of merchantability regardless of what BMW says. So if the issue on the car is basically that it won't function as a car, then BMW will have to fix it regardless of what their warranty says. They cannot, by law, disclaim this responsibility.

The other issue they have it particularly pertenient to modifications. Magnuson Moss specifically does not allow tie-in sales and the courts have broadly applied this right. A tie in sale would be if they said you only have a warranty if you use all BMW parts. That is probably part of why they have an "acceptable oil" list that shows other types that are OK. If you put a part on the car that came from another supplier, you believe it did not damage the car, but BMW wants to disclaim the warranty - they can be sued under Magneson Moss as, in effect, violating the tie-in sale prohibition. BMW knows this too - if the person you talk to has had the advice of their legal staff.

While perhaps not specific enough, my original comments regarding the key issue being what caused the damage remain valid. If you modify the car and it does not cause damage, BMW has very limited if any right to refuse to repair the car. U. S. federal law does not allow them to just arbitrarily say you have no warranty because you put a non-BMW part on the car. They know this and I suspect they would back off once they know that you know - and it gets to somebody who has had advice of legal counsel. If they continue to refuse, you can legally get the car repaired, sue them for your expenses including your legal expenses. The only issue the court will consider is what caused the damage. The disclaimer you reference is not going to last 5 minutes. BMW would probably not reference it so they don't get a precedent established that is is void.

Jim

And how much would all of the above cost me in out-of-pocket legal fees and time to be right before BMW loses and reimburses the lawyer?

[ZCP M3]

JimD, from your link

Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.

While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.

I'm sure BMW would classify an ECU tune that causes multiple areas of the powertrain to operate outside their designed ranges as improper or incorrectly performed maintenance.
It's not like replacing a filter with another filter. You're intentionally swapping the ECU code with a different code, not an equal replacement.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by nachob

+1

Dackel, not sure if you saw this earlier. Gearbox Model number and specs from ZF

1M gearbox is ZF GS6-45BZ

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...21&hg=23&fg=05

It is rated by ZF at 470 NM input torque ( 346.61 lb ft)

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/produ...smission.shtml

(Go to technical information Tab, listed as S6-45)

Thanks nachob - I did not know that the 1M's gearbox code ZF GS6-45BZ can only handle 470Nm. Seems strange BMW would under spec the trans like that.

Btw... those url links don't work for me. I keep getting an error. Can you post a new link? Danke.

[JimD]

ZCP M3,

I agree with your post but I think it still comes back to the cause of damage. BMW can use a cautionary statement in their warranty as evidence that they adequately warned owners against making changes that might damage their car. They can disclaim responsibility for damage caused by those changes. What they cannot do is say something like "I noticed you installed a tune so I am not going to cover the fact that your tail lights don't work". The only way modifications impacts your warranty is if the modification causes damage and only to the extent of that damage.

People who work at the dealership can try other things but the only restriction supported by the applicable law is against BMW responsibility for damage due to modifications to the vehicle they did not perform or authorize.

The messy part of the thing can be the difficulty in proving what caused what. If you put a tune on and the head gasket fails, was it caused by the tune? I am not sure you win that one. It might not have caused it but it also might have. The fact that BMW warned you against their warranty covering damage due to your modifications could help their case. That is a reason they warn you.

Jim

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Thanks nachob - I did not know that the 1M's gearbox code ZF GS6-45BZ can only handle 470Nm. Seems strange BMW would under spec the trans like that.

Btw... those url links don't work for me. I keep getting an error. Can you post a new link? Danke.

Dang, they worked before. I will do screenshots when I get home later! I actually got the heads up from the the shop foreman at my dealer. He told me they got specs on the 1M and he noticed the gearbox specs. He mentioned it to me because we we talking Dinan upgrades so I did my own reasearch and it matched what he told me.

By the way, I really like the M3 a lot, especially the sound BUT this gearbox rocks. It is a great shifting gearbox and feels better to me than the M3 one. The downside is that it appears to be close to Max already. I'll post screenshots later and if anyone has access to the official BMW docs that the shop foreman told me about, please post.

Thank you.

[nachob]

For gearbox model and specs, look at RealOEM, then ZF for Torque Specs

Here is new link to REALOEM.COM




Here is the link to ZF.COM

The 1M gearbox is listed as S6-45

(Go to technical information Tab, listed as S6-45)

[nachob]

OK as promised, here are the gearbox specs with screen shots and new links SEE ABOVE.

[l888apex]

Did not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been said, but IMO if you want the warranty honored do not mod the car in any fashion other than aesthetically! Your dealer may be accepting of certain bolt ons but you can believe that if there were ever a problem they would try everything in their power to prove that what you did caused it.

To answer OP's question from my perspective:
I know some people have been saying an air filter, or catback etc... would not void the warranty since it lets the car "breathe easier" etc...However, any performance mod raises horsepower, torque, and shifts the power band. Therefore, BMW AG has a case to say the increased levels caused premature wear on the components and caused failure. The car was designed to use only OEM components in the powertrain and any deviation from that can be shown to have caused the damage. Or at least make it one big pain in the ass to get anything covered.

For modification with a preserved warranty, I would only use official BMW Performance accessories.

For me personally, after modding the hell out of my last car and losing the warranty, therefore having to do all maintenance and repair on my own I learned some valuable lessons. This time around I am going to ride out BMW's great 4 year-50k full maintenance plan before having any fun. The car is already very fast stock, and it's rarity is worth preserving at least for some time in unmolested form. That is just my take on things, not what everyone should do.

[hybris4u]

BMW showed me the lists of parts that was out of warranty as soon as a tune was detected. It was a long list. Engine, gearbox, driver train etc etc etc. It was like "wonder i something that expensive is still in warranty..." ;-)

[hybris4u]

I asked BMW if changing to Akra or Eisenmann would be in warranty or not. That was a little gray zone and they where going to check to be sure. But in theory yes it might alter warranty. But as said they where not 100% on this one at my dealer. I will follow it up to check. Currently I just have cosmetic BMW Performance stuff on the car. The only other thing I might consider in a couple of months might be exhaust. But if there are warranty questions? Then I will skip that also.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by nachob

For gearbox model and specs, look at RealOEM, then ZF for Torque Specs

Here is new link to REALOEM.COM




Here is the link to ZF.COM

The 1M gearbox is listed as S6-45

(Go to technical information Tab, listed as S6-45)

^^Thanks nachob! I still can not believe BMW has under spec'd the trans like that. The 1M puts out in stock form 500 Nm +50Nm when in "over boost mode". Most of the German tuners are getting close to 680 Nm out of the engine. Hummm... I guess in time we shall see how things hold up.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

^^Thanks nachob! I still can not believe BMW has under spec'd the trans like that. The 1M puts out in stock form 500 Nm +50Nm when in "over boost mode". Most of the German tuners are getting close to 680 Nm out of the engine. Hummm... I guess in time we shall see how things hold up.

That was the exact reaction the shop foreman had when he told me and I am surprised also but I think it might explain why they didn't give you full torque at launch, only in overboost. If the motor can make that much torque, why not make it available for 7 seconds through launch? Perhaps it was the gearbox/driveline concerns?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by nachob

That was the exact reaction the shop foreman had when he told me and I am surprised also but I think it might explain why they didn't give you full torque at launch, only in overboost. If the motor can make that much torque, why not make it available for 7 seconds through launch? Perhaps it was the gearbox/driveline concerns?

Perhaps (more) frequent trans oil changes might be the key in a long trans life for the 1M. ? I don't think I would wait until BMW's third oil change to change the tranny fluid (again) IF I owned a 1M. I think 20K or 25K miles might be more safer interval.

[RaihaX]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Now... one of the reasons my car was in for service was I was having a problem with (one)long crank event. I thought it was my HPFP(mines never been replaced) but I had a code thrown for EWS, code 2F49. But when they went to read the codes on my car(I have a flash tune) there was no code and thier GT1 detected no tune on my car! So go figure. And since the car only acted up once and did not have a code... the dealer said no problem found. I wonder if anyne else has EWS (key fob verification)issues.

Hey Dack I just got a 2F49 code after a really long crank that won't start.

Did you manage to figure out why it happened with your car?

There isn't much information about this code out there!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by RaihaX

Hey Dack I just got a 2F49 code after a really long crank that won't start.

Did you manage to figure out why it happened with your car?

There isn't much information about this code out there!

It only happened ONCE to me. As soon as I had the problem where my engine would crank over for 30+ secs... I hit the starter button to stop the engine from cranking. I took out the key, reinserted it and it started. I then read the code... took a photo and went directly to my dealer. When they checked for codes the next day. No faults/code were found.

My dealer thinks I inserted the key fob(I don't have CA) and hot the started button too fast. But then I think I would have gotten the "No key" symbol on the BC display. That was not the case. I have driven the car about 2K kms since then with no other starting problems. Not sure what happend that ONE time. ???

EWS is the key fob verification process for the engine DME to make sure the key is the corrct owner's key with the special serial sequence for THAT car.


Dackel

[RaihaX]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

It only happened ONCE to me. As soon as I had the problem where my engine would crank over for 30+ secs... I hit the starter button to stop the engine from cranking. I took out the key, reinserted it and it started. I then read the code... took a photo and went directly to my dealer. When they checked for codes the next day. No faults/code were found.

My dealer thinks I inserted the key fob(I don't have CA) and hot the started button too fast. But then I think I would have gotten the "No key" symbol on the BC display. That was not the case. I have driven the car about 2K kms since then with no other starting problems. Not sure what happend that ONE time. ???

EWS is the key fob verification process for the engine DME to make sure the key is the corrct owner's key with the special serial sequence for THAT car.


Dackel

Yeah pretty much what happened to me except i didn't even wait for 30 seconds lol... it cranked for 10 second before i stopped it and tried again.

Fast forward to this morning and everything is fine though the code was still there - I have just cleared it. I guess is probably one of those one off glitches i presume!

[m3dragon]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

Yes you do void factory warranty! No question about that! Simple BMW Performance tuning no problem. Engine tuning and exhaust = void. I would say you need to prove the issues is not related to any tuning. Can be an ugly discussion where it all depense on your relationship with the dealer. I see no reason to go beyond BMW OEM performance mods. But that is me... Have to say there are many terrible mods done on this wonderful car. But its up to you! Please avoid the pornotuning! This car is worth a better fate!

Um that is false. The managnus VS (forgot name) case proved that modifying a car does not void warranty. This is always comes up and I would figure after all these years it would be a sticky on every forum.

With that said it is up to the dealer to determine that the parts you installed caused the issue. In most cases it is a long drawn out fight with them to show the part did not do damage.

I already have a intake and have exhaust parts on order. If something goes bad I know the dealer will say it is with the parts and my reply will be ok prove it according to the managnus VS (forgot name) case.

So mod away folks just remember that you will need to fight the dealer but by law it does not void warranty.

The real question is the hassle worth the mod is something goes south?