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      09-10-2013, 04:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int2str View Post
This part:



This is the disappointing advice (to me) - especially compared to all the good advice I've gotten from you (Harold) and your shop.

You're seriously suggesting that for a "canyon carver", the "very first modification" would be an LSD?!
And that such an LSD would "SIGNIFICANTLY" (your emphasis) change the handling characteristics of the car?
And this in a thread where the person that asks is still on RFT tires?

First I would contest the "SIGNIFICANTLY" part. Our cars are not simply open differentials, the adaptive braking does more than enough to keep power to the wheels. I would very, very much content that 90% of all people on this forum - including myself - could most likely not tell the difference between a 135i with and without LSD driving on a public road.

And when and how exactly does an LSD "SIGNIFICANTLY" alter handling characteristics of our cars?
A little bit under braking maybe? Mostly on acceleration out of tight corners probably. And how?

Does it get rid of under-steer produced by the awful RFTs?
Does it get rid of under-steer caused by the lack of camber?
Does it get rid of annoying the rear sub-frame flex that is easily more felt than LSD issues?
Does it make the car ride better during "normal" cornering?

How could we possibly know, based on the little feedback we have which problem the OP actually wants to solve?
Your recommendation for an LSD becomes just as good and valid then as my suggestion for an FXX.

If you take a percentage of driving where the LSD makes a difference and combine that with the fact that street driving is rarely possible/legal at the point where the LSD makes a difference, I would very much think that would be the *last* item anybody would recommend.

In fact, it was the last item you (Harold) had suggested to fix my last handling quibbles. Long after tires, camber plates, M3 bits, coil-overs, M3 bushings etc. were recommended and installed.

Again, not my money, what the heck do I care.
Just disappointing advice - coming from what is probably the best, most knowledgeable source of E82 suspension tuning on the market.

Plus I'm just generally grumpy about the rash suspension advice dished out by others on these forums these days, so that didn't help

And to get back on topic, from this follow up post by vampire:


I don't think an LSD would significantly help with any of this.
Good summer tires (PSS, RS-3, Z1, Z2, Rivals etc.) will help SIGNIFICANTLY (lol) with the wheel spin.

Bounciness would have to be diagnosed a bit more, but my first gut instinct would say bushings, shocks & springs could probably cure that. I'd refer to the experts (like HP, TC Kline etc.) who are more experienced with this.

What do you mean by "If it spins, it spins violently"?
Was it bouncing and then snapped around?
You spun on a public road?
DSC off, I assume?
Why are you being a gigantic ass hole for absolutely no reason? Its like you woke up this morning and decided you wanted to make everyone feel like crap because they were trying to be helpful. And at the same time, you just have to prove everyone wrong... If Dacke has any sense, he'd ban you for this.

Personally, vampire81... The LSD is the single best mod i've done to my vehicle. And that's simply because you use it every day.. Suspension mods you won't get the same benefits from on a daily basis unless you always drive around with your hair on fire. Getting on the gas out of a turn or any time your wheels start to spin, its an 100% difference. So much more control and much better power delivery. I can't say I've enjoyed my suspension mods as much as my LSD.
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      09-10-2013, 04:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
Why are you being a gigantic ass hole for absolutely no reason? Its like you woke up this morning and decided you wanted to make everyone feel like crap because they were trying to be helpful. And at the same time, you just have to prove everyone wrong... If Dacke has any sense, he'd ban you for this.
LOL, what?
I didn't name anybody names, didn't violate any forum rules and hopefully wasn't disrespectful either. I'm simply expressing my disappointment with the opinions here.

How's that a ban-able offense?
As compared to calling people names for example?

And btw. that post wasn't addressed to you, I was answering a direct question.

Quote:
Personally, vampire81... The LSD is the single best mod i've done to my vehicle
I absolutely respect that opinion.

Quote:
And that's simply because you use it every day.. Suspension mods you won't get the same benefits from on a daily basis unless you always drive around with your hair on fire. Getting on the gas out of a turn or any time your wheels start to spin, its an 100% difference. So much more control and much better power delivery. I can't say I've enjoyed my suspension mods as much as my LSD.
Serious questions:
How do you "use it every day" compared to your suspension?
How often do you experience wheel spin on public roads (with good tires)?
What does "100% difference" mean?
What exactly is different?
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      09-10-2013, 05:10 PM   #25
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FWIW I am with you @int2str on this LSD debate. yes it's great to have it but whether it should be the first mod, I don't think so. will it help your lap times, barely. is it more fun and more predictable driving on the edge, yes! end of story
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      09-10-2013, 05:27 PM   #26
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Both... but coilovers first. It will look better 100% of the time and drive better 100% of the time. It will improve the experience of owning the car in more ways than the LSD will. Please skip the cheaper options if driving the car takes precedence over looking at the car. Don't forget camber plates and maybe some M pieces up front.
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      09-10-2013, 06:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int2str View Post
This part:



This is the disappointing advice (to me) - especially compared to all the good advice I've gotten from you (Harold) and your shop.

You're seriously suggesting that for a "canyon carver", the "very first modification" would be an LSD?!
And that such an LSD would "SIGNIFICANTLY" (your emphasis) change the handling characteristics of the car?
And this in a thread where the person that asks is still on RFT tires?

First I would contest the "SIGNIFICANTLY" part. Our cars are not simply open differentials, the adaptive braking does more than enough to keep power to the wheels. I would very, very much content that 90% of all people on this forum - including myself - could most likely not tell the difference between a 135i with and without LSD driving on a public road.

And when and how exactly does an LSD "SIGNIFICANTLY" alter handling characteristics of our cars?
A little bit under braking maybe? Mostly on acceleration out of tight corners probably. And how?

Does it get rid of under-steer produced by the awful RFTs?
Does it get rid of under-steer caused by the lack of camber?
Does it get rid of annoying the rear sub-frame flex that is easily more felt than LSD issues?
Does it make the car ride better during "normal" cornering?

How could we possibly know, based on the little feedback we have which problem the OP actually wants to solve?
Your recommendation for an LSD becomes just as good and valid then as my suggestion for an FXX.

If you take a percentage of driving where the LSD makes a difference and combine that with the fact that street driving is rarely possible/legal at the point where the LSD makes a difference, I would very much think that would be the *last* item anybody would recommend.

In fact, it was the last item you (Harold) had suggested to fix my last handling quibbles. Long after tires, camber plates, M3 bits, coil-overs, M3 bushings etc. were recommended and installed.

Again, not my money, what the heck do I care.
Just disappointing advice - coming from what is probably the best, most knowledgeable source of E82 suspension tuning on the market.

Plus I'm just generally grumpy about the rash suspension advice dished out by others on these forums these days, so that didn't help

And to get back on topic, from this follow up post by vampire:


I don't think an LSD would significantly help with any of this.
Good summer tires (PSS, RS-3, Z1, Z2, Rivals etc.) will help SIGNIFICANTLY (lol) with the wheel spin.

Bounciness would have to be diagnosed a bit more, but my first gut instinct would say bushings, shocks & springs could probably cure that. I'd refer to the experts (like HP, TC Kline etc.) who are more experienced with this.

What do you mean by "If it spins, it spins violently"?
Was it bouncing and then snapped around?
You spun on a public road?
DSC off, I assume?
The OP already mentioned he was swapping out tires. And take this into consideration... if we do take your advice and go with a suspension setup, what suspension setup is, in your opinion, best for $2500? Are you including installation? Because the OP does not sound mechanically inclined to install a full coilover/M3 suspension by himself. So he is left with $2k for parts? Even with $2.5k the amount of kits available with quality builds is severely limited. You might say KWs V2s will help him more on the track/street than an LSD? (And you will not be able to afford camber plates with this setup FYI...) You can't even buy and install V3s for $2.5k.

Or we can take all of the M3 components and throw them on the car for a total of $2.5k... Is that going to help more than an LSD on a daily basis? Probably not.

Last point I would like to make is the fact that anyone interested in tracking their car occasionally during the course of a year should attend track events with a completely stock suspension. You need to learn the limits of your car on a stock suspension, so when you do in fact upgrade the suspension, your learning curve will be exponentially greater than if you attend your first event with a full suspension. An LSD will not hinder nor hurt your learning curve, rather it will be a tool to enhance your understanding of car dynamics, which is extremely hard to achieve with an open diff.

OP, I am very proud with the advice I give and either way you will greatly improve the characteristics of your car. I just don't appreciate people who say my information is misguided or disappointing when I have spent hours on the track and driving these cars. Let us know what setup you choose!

-Mike

P.S. Got a good laugh out of the bold statement. Doesn't help credibility but got a good laugh.

Last edited by HP Autosport; 09-10-2013 at 06:44 PM..
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      09-10-2013, 06:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Or we can take all of the M3 components and throw them on the car for a total of $2.5k... Is that going to help more than an LSD on a daily basis? Probably not.
with all due respect I completely disagree with mike. the benefits of a LSD is realized only when driven on the edge or while drifting. for $2.5k I would tame the cars soft suspension, hard tires and lack of camber first. I think this can be achieved with $2.5k. go for dinan camber plates, swap out the RFT's for wider stickier tires and swap out the front control arms and the ARB. you will feel the difference way more than swapping in a LSD. LSD should be your last mod
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      09-10-2013, 06:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
TAnd take this into consideration... if we do take your advice and go with a suspension setup, what suspension setup is, in your opinion, best for $2500? Are you including installation? Because the OP does not sound mechanically inclined to install a full coilover/M3 suspension by himself. So he is left with $2k for parts? Even with $2.5k the amount of kits available with quality builds is severely limited. You might say KWs V2s will help him more on the track/street than an LSD? (And you will not be able to afford camber plates with this setup FYI...) You can't even buy and install V3s for $2.5k.
I feel like you didn't really read my post

What advice?!
I didn't give the OP any specific suspension advice! Because there's not enough information - that's my point.
Do *you* think you can have an LSD installed for the OP at 2500?
What part of the LSD do you think SIGNIFICANTLY changes the handling characteristics of the car on the road? In what way?

Quote:
Last point I would like to make is the fact that anyone interested in tracking their car occasionally during the course of a year should attend track events with a completely stock suspension. You need to learn the limits of your car on a stock suspension, so when you do in fact upgrade the suspension, your learning curve will be exponentially greater than if you attend your first event with a full suspension.
Now that sounds like good advice!
That would also give you the opportunity to see where exactly your handling falls short and address those specific issues.

Quote:
An LSD will not hinder nor hurt your learning curve, rather it will be a tool to enhance your understanding of car dynamics, which is extremely hard to achieve with an open diff.
A 135i does not have an open diff technically.
And even (especially?) driving with an open diff would "enhance your understanding of car dynamics".

Quote:
I just don't appreciate people who say my information is misguided or disappointing when I have spent hours on the track and driving these cars.
That makes your advice especially puzzling....

Quote:
And BTW, do you even have an LSD?
Yes, bought from and installed by HP Autowerks.
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      09-10-2013, 07:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
with all due respect I completely disagree with mike. the benefits of a LSD is realized only when driven on the edge or while drifting. for $2.5k I would tame the cars soft suspension, hard tires and lack of camber first. I think this can be achieved with $2.5k. go for dinan camber plates, swap out the RFT's for wider stickier tires and swap out the front control arms and the ARB. you will feel the difference way more than swapping in a LSD. LSD should be your last mod
I disagree. Most everyone who I have talked to say that an LSD was the single best modification to their vehicle. It was for my car, regardless of track days or daily driving.

Like the OP said, he already planned on addressing the RFTs by replacing them so I believe this $2.5k is completely separate. I 100% agree that the front control arms made the biggest difference of the M3 suspension components. I am in no way saying getting a better suspension is stupid or not worth it. I am simply implying that a suspension kit, especially when you track the car, should not be compromised by a certain dollar amount. $2,500 for a good suspension setup is sort of hard to achieve and will be 'outgrown' rather quickly by someone attending track events 2-3 times a year. Comparing all the M3 bits to an LSD, I still believe the LSD made the bigger difference, even on the street. That is just an opinion and you can dissagree with it. However, you use an LSD for more applications than just driving on the edge, such as wet traction predictability, better traction during hard acceleration, better acceleration out of tight turns, and not to mention tons of fun around corners.



Quote:
Originally Posted by int2str View Post
I feel like you didn't really read my post

What advice?!
I didn't give the OP any specific suspension advice! Because there's not enough information - that's my point.
You said "Mike's comment there is less than helpful and even a bit misleading on our e-diff assisted cars." Your advice was that my advice sucked, which you never really went into detail as to why you think this. I see you giving tire advice but he was already addressing that issue so you really weren't helping at all.
Do *you* think you can have an LSD installed for the OP at 2500?
Would have to check but it is relatively close
What part of the LSD do you think SIGNIFICANTLY changes the handling characteristics of the car on the road? In what way?
However, you use an LSD for more applications than just driving on the edge, such as wet traction predictability, better traction during hard acceleration, better acceleration out of tight turns, and not to mention tons of fun around corners.


Now that sounds like good advice!
That would also give you the opportunity to see where exactly your handling falls short and address those specific issues.
Thank you. Best advice I can give to anyone.


A 135i does not have an open diff technically.
And even (especially?) driving with an open diff would "enhance your understanding of car dynamics".
I would agree with that. Even with an LSD, you will still experience body pitch and roll. I am simply implying the stock diff will limit you more than the suspension will under certain circumstances.


Yes, bought from and installed by HP Autowerks.
I just think your constant questioning really isn't helping the OP and is overwhelming him. I will also admit it is slightly annoying to the people who are trying to give an honest answer. Obviously the OP isn't as experienced in this realm as some of us, so we got to do the best with what we can right?

-Mike
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      09-10-2013, 07:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
I would disagree and say subframe bushings and sway bars should be added last to a car. But once again the OP really didn't pinpoint what this car would be used for or specifically what he wants to improve, haha.
I can absolutely understand sway bars being the last modification, if you are on a mission to fine tune the handling balance. However many people on the forum are happy with the E92 M3 front bar with certain street oriented combinations of springs and dampers. I don't see much risk in going for it straight away if you can accept others advice about a popular setup. No it may not be the last word if you want to fine tune the handling for specific sport application, but not a bad starting point I would suggest.

IMO, its a waste of time trying to tune the handling while using the stock subframe bushes. Simply put, they are all-over-the-place. Its not only a suspension stiffness problem. In addition it causes a rear wheel passive steering problem that makes the steering response very confusing for the driver. Swapping the M3 subframe bushes made such a big difference that I now realise I would never have got a feeling for the cars true characteristics while using the stock subframe bushes. I would recommend it as the first mod, even in a car used as a daily driver.
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      09-10-2013, 08:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
with all due respect I completely disagree with mike. the benefits of a LSD is realized only when driven on the edge or while drifting. for $2.5k I would tame the cars soft suspension, hard tires and lack of camber first. I think this can be achieved with $2.5k. go for dinan camber plates, swap out the RFT's for wider stickier tires and swap out the front control arms and the ARB. you will feel the difference way more than swapping in a LSD. LSD should be your last mod
Actually, for a novice, I agree. The car will let go sooner, slower, and with an- LSD more predictably.

But this is also assuming the suspension is in reasonable condition(safety).

RWD cars should never be sold without an LSD IMO.

I think that there were insufficient requirements presented for anyone to be flaming someone for providing accurate advice for their interpretation of the requirments.
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      09-10-2013, 09:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire81 View Post
this is my weekend toy, spirited driving. would like to upgrade the suspension, have more grip when cornering but not sacrificing ride quality.
i will be taking the car 2-3 times a year to the track.
got $2500 to spend. should i save more and get a LSD or upgrade the suspension, and what to upgrade specifically!
Taking you at your word, and assuming you have already taken your car to the track (if you haven't, do nothing until you have):

Install M3 rear subframe bushings.

1) it is a suspension mod, which is your stated intent.
2) it improves ride quality.
3) it improves front end grip, which is surely what you mean when you say "have more grip when cornering". (Why would you want more rear grip on what is already an understeering pig?)

Reassess (at the track, at an autoslalom, or on any decent on ramp) after the M3 rear subframe bushings.

LSD as a first mod? This is just about the worst idea you could come up with and since you did come up with it, I guess we can blame you and not Mike. I am sure Mike believes what he says, but he hasn't done a very good job of explaining how an LSD is "the single best modification". And you do know he is in the business of selling you whatever you think you need, right? int2str may have stepped on a few toes, but he speaks from an informed AND impartial position. John_01 gets a nod too.

Oh, and just to clarify - by "track" you do mean "race track" as in "road course" don't you? If you are actually intending to take your car to the "race track", M3 rear subframe bushings are "the one mod" you should do first. Nothing else comes close. It doesn't matter if you want to drive fast or to drive sideways, they fix a fundamental problem with the 1-series suspension. This advice is just about as old as this forum. That is to say, it is extremely well tested, and I dare say nobody who has done it and tracks their car will tell you that it didn't fundamentally improve their car's handling and balance.
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      09-10-2013, 09:49 PM   #34
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everyone forgets that OP has a tune, FMIC, dp's and stated he is getting new tires. a LSD would actually help him put the power down. Before my FMIC with similar mods ( i already had coilovers) i actually did have traction issues on the streets. I probably wasnt driving exactly the speed limit but the Lsd absolutely made a big difference.

People arguing against the LSD are acting like it is going on a stock car that will see no performance driving, which isnt the case.

Should LSD be before Coilovers after power mods? that is the question and it is absolutely debatable based on peoples intentions with their cars.
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      09-10-2013, 10:17 PM   #35
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Wow Im surprised by this debate.

The first mod going on my car when its delivered is a Quaife lsd.

Every performance car Ive owned (Hondas, Nissans, Evo) has benefitted immensely from a lsd whether fr,rr,awd.

The fact that BMW charges as much as they do and don't include a lsd was almost a deal breaker for me (almost).
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      09-11-2013, 03:39 AM   #36
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the flood of information is appreciated and i'm yet to make up my mind ```

this is where i stand now:
- i mentioned the LSD because it is highly advertised and all my previous sports cars had LSDs.
- the spinning when acceleration is what makes me consider the LSD. my LS3 C6 with PS2 tires hooked better. or is from the LSD in the C6?
- the car will be parked in the garage when roads are wet.
- i'm not drifting my car.
- the $2500 is for suspension parts mods only.
- the RFTs will soon go. size will increase to 225/255 front/rear.
- i'm afraid the coilovers will be overkill for me considering the added stiffness and the reduced ground clearance. or am i wrong? i know it will vastly improve handling.
- on fast corners (public roads), it bounces if the road is not perfect. reminded me of my 2011 mustang. my 2003 S2000 was better in this department.
- i always drive the car with the traction control button pressed 1 time.
- one more thing i would like to improve is steering responsiveness. it takes more time to translate my inputs. drove a 2012 GTI and its steering response was excellent and even better than my S2000!!!
- i'm not planning to turn my 135i into a time attack machine when i take it to a "race track" or "road course", just enjoy having a well balanced suspension, or in other words, better than stock handling.

now speaking of my $2500, should i spend it or save for the LSD?
LSD will cost me $5000 installed.

thanks again for the valuable inputs and civilized discussion ``
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      09-11-2013, 07:15 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
everyone forgets that OP has a tune, FMIC, dp's and stated he is getting new tires. a LSD would actually help him put the power down. Before my FMIC with similar mods ( i already had coilovers) i actually did have traction issues on the streets. I probably wasnt driving exactly the speed limit but the Lsd absolutely made a big difference.

People arguing against the LSD are acting like it is going on a stock car that will see no performance driving, which isnt the case.

Should LSD be before Coilovers after power mods? that is the question and it is absolutely debatable based on peoples intentions with their cars.
Agree with this completely. I also think that unless you have an LSD installed on this car, you shouldn't be arguing against it as the best/greater impact mod, because you have no idea how it effects this car. I bet most of you arguing against it have never even driven a 1 series with an LSD.
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      09-11-2013, 08:10 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire81 View Post
the flood of information is appreciated and i'm yet to make up my mind ```

this is where i stand now:
- i mentioned the LSD because it is highly advertised and all my previous sports cars had LSDs.
- the spinning when acceleration is what makes me consider the LSD. my LS3 C6 with PS2 tires hooked better. or is from the LSD in the C6?
- the car will be parked in the garage when roads are wet.
- i'm not drifting my car.
- the $2500 is for suspension parts mods only.
- the RFTs will soon go. size will increase to 225/255 front/rear.
- i'm afraid the coilovers will be overkill for me considering the added stiffness and the reduced ground clearance. or am i wrong? i know it will vastly improve handling.
- on fast corners (public roads), it bounces if the road is not perfect. reminded me of my 2011 mustang. my 2003 S2000 was better in this department.
- i always drive the car with the traction control button pressed 1 time.
- one more thing i would like to improve is steering responsiveness. it takes more time to translate my inputs. drove a 2012 GTI and its steering response was excellent and even better than my S2000!!!
- i'm not planning to turn my 135i into a time attack machine when i take it to a "race track" or "road course", just enjoy having a well balanced suspension, or in other words, better than stock handling.

now speaking of my $2500, should i spend it or save for the LSD?
LSD will cost me $5000 installed.

thanks again for the valuable inputs and civilized discussion ``
1) the main benefit of coilovers is height adjustability so ground clearance isn't an issue unless you buy the type that need to be run very low, ie AST's

2) the bouncing you experience from road imperfections is a function of runflats

3) the turn-in, or lack thereof is due to limited negative camber. increase negative camber up front (and run wider tires or square setup) and your will feel sharper turn-in

I've owned my 135 for less than a week and #2 and #3 were the first things I immediately noticed and were most obvious to me. Don't get me wrong, LSD is a great mod but based on the things you listed above, it's not going to help in those areas. LSD is most practical in slippery road conditions, and if you're feeling like a hooligan at the moment, putting power down from a dig, or powering out of a turn. But for everyday driving I don't see how the last 2 really come up that frequently.

If the LSD came as standard or was factory option, I would get it just because the cost would be reasonable and it's "nice to have." But if I had to retrofit it on a daily driven car, not worth the cost IMHO. I have one in my Z but it sees more track time than street.
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      09-11-2013, 11:25 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by vampire81 View Post
the flood of information is appreciated and i'm yet to make up my mind ```

this is where i stand now:
- i mentioned the LSD because it is highly advertised and all my previous sports cars had LSDs.
- the spinning when acceleration is what makes me consider the LSD. my LS3 C6 with PS2 tires hooked better. or is from the LSD in the C6?
- the car will be parked in the garage when roads are wet.
- i'm not drifting my car.
- the $2500 is for suspension parts mods only.
- the RFTs will soon go. size will increase to 225/255 front/rear.
- i'm afraid the coilovers will be overkill for me considering the added stiffness and the reduced ground clearance. or am i wrong? i know it will vastly improve handling.
- on fast corners (public roads), it bounces if the road is not perfect. reminded me of my 2011 mustang. my 2003 S2000 was better in this department.
- i always drive the car with the traction control button pressed 1 time.
- one more thing i would like to improve is steering responsiveness. it takes more time to translate my inputs. drove a 2012 GTI and its steering response was excellent and even better than my S2000!!!
- i'm not planning to turn my 135i into a time attack machine when i take it to a "race track" or "road course", just enjoy having a well balanced suspension, or in other words, better than stock handling.

now speaking of my $2500, should i spend it or save for the LSD?
LSD will cost me $5000 installed.

thanks again for the valuable inputs and civilized discussion ``

@3002 Tii gave you some useful information.

It really does sound like you want both modifications.

The LSD will help you with traction and be a great compliment to your engine mods. I have an LSD, love it, and swear by it. On the streets I hated the stock diff and how at WOT when braking throttle would pull to one side. If I brake traction now, I do so in a straight line.

I would get the non-runflat tires first, see how it improves your car and decide where you want to go from there. If your budget is $2500 and you are not building a track specific car, you can get some less aggressive coilovers and as 3002 Tii mentioned, you can adjust the height for cosmetic and handling reasons and loose little road comfort.

The rear bounce you describe is a combination of your runflat tires and soft rear subframe bushings. The tires are hard and the bushings are soft to compensate. It creates a really loose disconnected rear end. M3 bushings and non runflats will get rid of a lot of that.

For improved steering response, you can add more camber and or m3 control arms. The non runflats may make your steering feel a little less sharp than your runflats but the grip will greatly be improved and it will be worth it.

I dont think you are going to get any one right answer for your original question. I just think you should upgrade both along with the bushings and your tires and you will be very pleased.
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      09-11-2013, 11:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
Taking you at your word, and assuming you have already taken your car to the track (if you haven't, do nothing until you have):

Install M3 rear subframe bushings.

1) it is a suspension mod, which is your stated intent.
2) it improves ride quality.
3) it improves front end grip, which is surely what you mean when you say "have more grip when cornering". (Why would you want more rear grip on what is already an understeering pig?)

Reassess (at the track, at an autoslalom, or on any decent on ramp) after the M3 rear subframe bushings.

LSD as a first mod? This is just about the worst idea you could come up with and since you did come up with it, I guess we can blame you and not Mike. I am sure Mike believes what he says, but he hasn't done a very good job of explaining how an LSD is "the single best modification". And you do know he is in the business of selling you whatever you think you need, right? int2str may have stepped on a few toes, but he speaks from an informed AND impartial position. John_01 gets a nod too.

Oh, and just to clarify - by "track" you do mean "race track" as in "road course" don't you? If you are actually intending to take your car to the "race track", M3 rear subframe bushings are "the one mod" you should do first. Nothing else comes close. It doesn't matter if you want to drive fast or to drive sideways, they fix a fundamental problem with the 1-series suspension. This advice is just about as old as this forum. That is to say, it is extremely well tested, and I dare say nobody who has done it and tracks their car will tell you that it didn't fundamentally improve their car's handling and balance.
I am not in the business of selling whatever he needs because there is a good chance he won't purchase from me. He put it between suspension and an LSD and I though the LSD would be more suitable, but now that he is saying it will cost him 5k installed then that opens up a FLOOD of different possibilities. I also didn't see he was in Kuwait and this changes my thought process A LOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire81 View Post
the flood of information is appreciated and i'm yet to make up my mind ```

this is where i stand now:
- i mentioned the LSD because it is highly advertised and all my previous sports cars had LSDs.
- the spinning when acceleration is what makes me consider the LSD. my LS3 C6 with PS2 tires hooked better. or is from the LSD in the C6?
- the car will be parked in the garage when roads are wet.
- i'm not drifting my car.
- the $2500 is for suspension parts mods only.
- the RFTs will soon go. size will increase to 225/255 front/rear.
- i'm afraid the coilovers will be overkill for me considering the added stiffness and the reduced ground clearance. or am i wrong? i know it will vastly improve handling.
- on fast corners (public roads), it bounces if the road is not perfect. reminded me of my 2011 mustang. my 2003 S2000 was better in this department.
- i always drive the car with the traction control button pressed 1 time.
- one more thing i would like to improve is steering responsiveness. it takes more time to translate my inputs. drove a 2012 GTI and its steering response was excellent and even better than my S2000!!!
- i'm not planning to turn my 135i into a time attack machine when i take it to a "race track" or "road course", just enjoy having a well balanced suspension, or in other words, better than stock handling.

now speaking of my $2500, should i spend it or save for the LSD?
LSD will cost me $5000 installed.

thanks again for the valuable inputs and civilized discussion ``
Well now that I see you live in Kuwait (apologize I didn't see that before) and it will cost you $5k installed then I need to change up my suggestion strategy. With all of this new information I would suggest the M3 front control arms (will help with the less than perfect turn in), M3 strut tower brace, M3 subframe bushings, M3 guide rods, and M3 upper links. In terms of actual suspension it seems like you are going for more of a koni/swift spring combination, which won't lower the car too much and greatly improve handling and performance. You could add camber plates, but that would be a little over your budget. All of these together would make for a great road car and occasional track car.

Once again, I appreciate the further input so I could be a little bit more helpful. I just heard suspension vs LSD and went one direction. Hope this helps a little.

+1 on what Marco said above me.
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      09-11-2013, 07:05 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
I am not in the business of selling whatever he needs because there is a good chance he won't purchase from me. He put it between suspension and an LSD and I though the LSD would be more suitable, but now that he is saying it will cost him 5k installed then that opens up a FLOOD of different possibilities. I also didn't see he was in Kuwait and this changes my thought process A LOT.



Well now that I see you live in Kuwait (apologize I didn't see that before) and it will cost you $5k installed then I need to change up my suggestion strategy. With all of this new information I would suggest the M3 front control arms (will help with the less than perfect turn in), M3 strut tower brace, M3 subframe bushings, M3 guide rods, and M3 upper links. In terms of actual suspension it seems like you are going for more of a koni/swift spring combination, which won't lower the car too much and greatly improve handling and performance. You could add camber plates, but that would be a little over your budget. All of these together would make for a great road car and occasional track car.

Once again, I appreciate the further input so I could be a little bit more helpful. I just heard suspension vs LSD and went one direction. Hope this helps a little.

+1 on what Marco said above me.
Didn't even realize the M3 strut brace fits the 1-er...
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      09-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Didn't even realize the M3 strut brace fits the 1-er...
It does with some minor tweaks:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ighlight=brace

Last edited by HP Autosport; 09-12-2013 at 11:19 AM..
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      09-12-2013, 01:06 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Well now that I see you live in Kuwait (apologize I didn't see that before) and it will cost you $5k installed then I need to change up my suggestion strategy. With all of this new information I would suggest the M3 front control arms (will help with the less than perfect turn in), M3 strut tower brace, M3 subframe bushings, M3 guide rods, and M3 upper links. In terms of actual suspension it seems like you are going for more of a koni/swift spring combination, which won't lower the car too much and greatly improve handling and performance. You could add camber plates, but that would be a little over your budget. All of these together would make for a great road car and occasional track car.
thank you everyone for the great enlightenment. M3 front control arms and rear subframe bushings are going in.
i wouldn't install a strut tower brace.
why would i put on M3 guide rods and upper links?
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      09-12-2013, 01:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
3) the turn-in, or lack thereof is due to limited negative camber. increase negative camber up front (and run wider tires or square setup) and your will feel sharper turn-in
i did mention the tire change to 225/255 front-rear to non RFT. but from what i understand, wider tires will have less steering response, while having a hard RFT sidewall will give me more! correct me if i'm wrong.

non RFT will yield a better grip and road imperfection soaking, but it won't improve steering response. correct me if i'm wrong!
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