[acd483]

Thanks for the link Snapper. I very much feel that the updated version of this comparo will read much the same.

We haven't bought a car yet. We might wait a bit to see if BMW puts out a 328 in the wagon. That may put it over the Audi.

[Compos Mentis]

Originally Posted by snapper

BMW325xit vs A4Q Avant, Car and Driver


Torsen vs X-drive

This article is April 2001. It would be great to have the test updated. Alot happens in 5 years.

Read http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=10250
about the 530xi wagon.

[snapper]

Originally Posted by Compos Mentis

This article is April 2001. It would be great to have the test updated. Alot happens in 5 years.

Read http://www.caranddriver.com/article....ticle_id=10250
about the 530xi wagon.

Yes, it would be interesting to see an updated comparo. One thing is for certain though, BMW has again chosen to skip a real sport package for it's AWD line, and Audi has again chosen to include one.

I don't see any "updated" discussion on BMW's AWD system on that link... Perhaps it might be worth reading this "updated" post from another BMW forum... it's the most comprehensive quattro vs x-drive discussion I've seen... don't know if it's all correct though.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=88

In all honesty, even all that technical mumbo jumbo means little, I doubt 99% of us can tell the difference in the real world. I have an S4, my wife has the X3, both cars have Dunlop Wintersports tires (we're skiers). My car definitely handles better on any type of surface, but I attribute that to it being a lighter/lower sport sedan, rather than it being quattro vs x-drive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash BMW - you put an equally equipped 3 series against an A4 and the 3 wins, period. Unfortunately, in AWD form, due to the lack of a real sport package on the BM, they are not equally equipped. Not saying the Audi wins, but then many other personal perference factors start weighing in.

[That's not a very nice article for the 530xi Sport Wagon, BTW. These magazines rarely outright slam cars, so you gotta read between the lines - "bloated 500 lbs over...," "hefty price...," and "how it stacks up against the 3.0 X5 (itself an underpowered tank)". I was interested in that car while it was rumored.... until I saw the stats (>4100 lbs, >52k). Definitely rather go for the Audi S4 Avant in that weight/price range and squeeze in a bit tighter.]

[noflash]

Originally Posted by snapper

Yes, it would be interesting to see an updated comparo. One thing is for certain though, BMW has again chosen to skip a real sport package for it's AWD line, and Audi has again chosen to include one.

I don't see any "updated" discussion on BMW's AWD system on that link... Perhaps it might be worth reading this "updated" post from another BMW forum... it's the most comprehensive quattro vs x-drive discussion I've seen... don't know if it's all correct though.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=88

In all honesty, even all that technical mumbo jumbo means little, I doubt 99% of us can tell the difference in the real world. I have an S4, my wife has the X3, both cars have Dunlop Wintersports tires (we're skiers). My car definitely handles better on any type of surface, but I attribute that to it being a lighter/lower sport sedan, rather than it being quattro vs x-drive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash BMW - you put an equally equipped 3 series against an A4 and the 3 wins, period. Unfortunately, in AWD form, due to the lack of a real sport package on the BM, they are not equally equipped. Not saying the Audi wins, but then many other personal perference factors start weighing in.

[That's not a very nice article for the 530xi Sport Wagon, BTW. These magazines rarely outright slam cars, so you gotta read between the lines - "bloated 500 lbs over...," "hefty price...," and "how it stacks up against the 3.0 X5 (itself an underpowered tank)". I was interested in that car while it was rumored.... until I saw the stats (>4100 lbs, >52k). Definitely rather go for the Audi S4 Avant in that weight/price range and squeeze in a bit tighter.]

Let's not forget how "sporty" bimmers are WITHOUT the sport package.

I'd take a non-sport 330i over an S-Line A4 3.2 any day.
(and an S4 over both )

[dkizerian]

Hopefully Audi has finally replaced the blow-off valve on their 4cyl turbo motors...

I had a 2001 GTI with the 1.8T and in the course of just over a year I had the damned blow-off valve replaced 6 times. All due to tearing in the diaphram. 3-4 of these didn't even trip a check engine light, they just became noisy (sounded like a muffled duck when you lifted)
I found out later that this was a painfully common problem with the vw/audi 1.8t and that I should have just bought an aftermarket blowoff valve.

I've owned way to many new and newer cars and the reliability, and service(2 different vw/audi dealerships) on the VW GTI was the worst I've experienced.

but that motor was a dream when accelerating from 75 to 130 without downshifting

[Compos Mentis]

Have any of you ever considered a Porsche Boxster? Light and fast... Maybe the 'luxury sport sedan' category isn't what you want.

[acd483]

Originally Posted by Compos Mentis

Have any of you ever considered a Porsche Boxster? Light and fast... Maybe the 'luxury sport sedan' category isn't what you want.

My family already owns a Boxster and I've got plans to get a new one for myself. There's no other car for the money that I'd rather drive. But this is, of course, a discussion about the car sitting next to the Boxster!

[Compos Mentis]

Originally Posted by acd483

My family already owns a Boxster and I've got plans to get a new one for myself. There's no other car for the money that I'd rather drive. But this is, of course, a discussion about the car sitting next to the Boxster!

Then, yes. In comparison, the 325xi is a dog.

[acd483]

Compos,

Would you say that your 330 has "opened up" or loosened any after the break-in period? Is it faster, does it handle better, etc.?

[acd483]

VINDICATED. Thank you R&T for printing the truth about the XI.

[stressdoc]

I agree with acd483 that BMW needs to release a RWD E91 in the NA market. There is a niche waiting to be created by the 335iT.

99% of the disagreement in this thread stems from the use of the term 'dog' which is subjective and relative. If a 7.5 sec 0-60 car is slow for you, then that's the way it is. x is obviously a wonderful tool in extreme winter conditions. No doubt if I lived in a colder, funner place like BC or Quebec I would love to get a 325x. But I do not need it where I live, so RWD is a better option for me. I'm just waiting......for the release of the iT.

[thunderbirdsarego]

Interesting thread (in parts!).

I did extensive test driving of AWD vehicles for the best part of a year and still had quite a difficult time picking the 330xi. The Audi A4 2.0 T, 330xi and Volvo S40 T5 AWD were all in the running (alas, the RS4 did not yet exist, I suspect it might have won!).

The Audi was actually a fun drive and turbo lag was barely noticeable. The maturity of the Audi AWD system also appealed to me as did it's reputation for being solid in nasty conditions. The 330 was quicker and more nimble but not by much. I think I could have been a very happy Audi owner!

I turned out to be a very difficult decision. However, in the end I just could not get over the new looks of the Audi, I also had some concerns about reliability. In the end I concluded that I would rather get a car that was solid (if not the ultimate) in nasty conditions but well balanced and as close to a rear-wheel drive feel as possible. The specs (0-60, braking) also all pointed to the 330xi as being a winner.

Some will wonder why I did not look at the Audi 3.2T. Well, when I was car shopping it was only available in an automatic and I also prefer the 2.0T as it is a better balanced car.

For those that say that you give up a lot with the xi over the i, I can only answer that despite 18 years driving RWD sports cars I am lucky enough to not be able to detect a significant difference in normal spirited driving! What I have noticed is that the xi is far more stable under accelerative loads in wet and slippery conditions than any RWD car I have driven. At this point I would not say that the Audi system is better, only that it is better for some things. If you want a car that can get you most places where the roads are open both will work though Audi may have the edge. If you want a better balanced car with the feel of a RWD, then xDrive is a more interesting option.

Actually, I believe you will see more AWD systems switching to a rear-wheel bias regardless of their mechanical setup. Audi have done this with the RS4 and I expect they will flow this down to the A4 in good time.

Bottom line for me though, picking a good AWD car was not so simple but now that I have the bimmer you could never convince me to give it up (that gearbox, the steering - I even prefer the Terra interior to the Audi interior - and I love Audi interiors!) !

[acd483]

I was surprised at how poorly the Volvo did especially after many raving reviews. I think you're right about Audi moving to a RWD bias in its AWD systems. Have you watched the Top Gear RS4 video? It's fantastic. That said, you're lucky to have the cash to spend on an RS4. Even still, the 330xi has just got a few more hp than the 325xi. I've driven them all and still feel so robbed having had two dreamy 330i ZSP test drives.

Some people on here just have to realize that the "ultimate" lies within a limited threshold. When BMW moves out of what its really great at doing, the soul isn't there. I don't think they're passionate about AWD, which is fine by me. Let's just all stop pretending.

[stressdoc]

"the 330xi has just a few more hp than the 325xi" ??? 40 ≠ a few. The 180 lbs of the xi does not substantially detract from its performance. It is the BMW that has the rwd bias and is more fun to drive than the front wheel drived based Audi. An xi is an E90. It did not lose its soul in the process of adding a split differential. I think it would be interesting for acd483 to be taken on a blind test to see if he can really tell the difference between the 'dreamy' 330i and a 330xi. Thunderbirdsarego hits the nail on the head describing the x a better balanced car.

That said, I still want a rwd iT. Saves $1800, 180lbs., and the ZSP is better.

[acd483]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I think it would be interesting for acd483 to be taken on a blind test to see if he can really tell the difference between the 'dreamy' 330i and a 330xi.

You're on, but we do the test here in Chicago.

[stressdoc]

Unh-un. Nurbergring. Nordschleife taxis! Sabina drives.

[StewtheBassman]

Originally Posted by acd483

You're on, but we do the test here in Chicago.

In the middle of a blinding snowstorm. Sounds like a plan....oh, and to further up the stakes, your girlfriend, who has driven FWD drive Toyotas her whole life, has to drive. You won't be blindfolded, rather you'll be bound and gagged so she can't hear your whining and so that you can't grab the controls from her. Oh, and it'll be on one of the worst pothole-ridden streets in Chicago.




Enjoy!!

[StewtheBassman]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Unh-un. Nurbergring. Nordschleife taxis! Sabina drives.

I showed that article to my daughters...not only is Sabina cool, she's hot as well!!!

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by snapper

Yes, it would be interesting to see an updated comparo. One thing is for certain though, BMW has again chosen to skip a real sport package for it's AWD line, and Audi has again chosen to include one.

That's because BMW feels that AWD is not a legitimate drivetrain for any car with sporting intentions (AWD M? Forget it!), a position with which I am inclined to agree.

[thunderbirdsarego]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

That's because BMW feels that AWD is not a legitimate drivetrain for any car with sporting intentions (AWD M? Forget it!), a position with which I am inclined to agree.

I'll admit I don't have any insight into what BMW's position is on the role of AWD today and in the future.

However, whilst a purist might argue that "AWD is not a legitimate drivetrain for any car with sporting intentions" the same purist could equally well argue that no car with sporting intentions should have, DSTC, four doors, air conditioning, power-everything and the myriad of other things that come with almost all modern cars which many think as of having sporting intentions.

Incidentally, not many years ago I was that purist. I remember being so frustrated that my RX-7 Turbo had power windows (which as we all know affects the power to weight ratio). I opted out of the air conditioning for the same reason.

Like it or not, a four door sedan is already a compromise of sorts. In many cases a brilliant compromise but one nonetheless. AWD is here to stay and will take on many forms in future cars. With advancing electronics and sensor technologies and ever increasing horsepower I expect we will see a tremendous number of advances in AWD which will be applied to make cars faster and safer in a variety of conditions. Some of these systems will detract more than others from the way we love our cars to feel. Some will be perceived as simply stunning (the RS4 is an example of what AWD can do, but this is just the beginning).

The long and short of it is the automobile will evolve and AWD will be just one of many factors that changes the way we interact with one of our favourite devices (and most likely will not be the most significant one). Perhaps that's why my RX-7 hasn't disappeared quite yet?!

[beldredge]

I haven't seen this R&T article in its entirety yet, but I'm not sure I understand why ACD feels "vindicated"? I just saw an excerpt from the results, and saw that R&T got a 0-60 time in the 325xi of 6.5 seconds.

Granted, that's not the fastest of the bunch they tested, but I personally wouldn't consider anything under 7.0 secs a dog. But, it's all personal preference. I'm not thinking of running out and buying a Legacy just for its raw acceleration (then again - 5.1 secs? that's pretty darn fast).

[StewtheBassman]

Legacy turbos SUCK gas, if driven the way they are meant to be driven.
Legacy turbos are fast, but jerky..that's a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder engine doing all that work.
The Legacy is mostly a fixed AWD with a LSD (which works nicely), but it's not xDrive.
The Legacy engine is loud.
The Legacy ACC is poor, I'm not making that up.
THere is no telescoping wheel in the Legacy.


Need I go on? For a couple thousand more the Bimmer is a much better car.
5.1 seconds is fun, but if that's what you NEED in a family sedan then maybe there are other anatomical issues which need tending to.....