Response to Michelin Pilot Super Sports

[rick propas]

I just had a full set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports fitted to my 1M after a long road trip and at ~22,500 miles

The tires are not broken in so I cannot comment on their performance but on my M roadster I did not like them nearly as much as the PS2s and when I nailed the accelerator in the coupé yesterday I got a flicker from the traction control light.

I see lots of folks loving the PSS as a road tire, but so far in two applications I am underwhelmed by them.

I'd be interested to hear other comments.

[ozinaldo]

PSS have a smoother ride, grippier overall and infinitely better on wet than the PS2. On dry surface at least majority believes PS2 have better turn-in and I think they are also really good in braking, maybe even better than PSS. They have similar steering response on normal roads.

Being also cheaper and lighter plus arguably more tread life, they are a no brainer in almost all real world driving conditions for the 1M which has too much torque to handle at the rear. There is a significant rear traction difference between these two imo. However, they are not a track tire and you may need to find the good pressure with them (which may be different than PS2) in addition to break-in. They are really good after break-in and maybe for the first 10,000 km. stay at peak of their performance. When they start getting harder after 2 years even with little mileage they start loosing their mojo a bit.

[Narek]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

PSS have a smoother ride, grippier overall and infinitely better on wet than the PS2. On dry surface at least majority believes PS2 have better turn-in and I think they are also really good in braking, maybe even better than PSS. They have similar steering response on normal roads.

Being also cheaper and lighter plus arguably more tread life, they are a no brainer in almost all real world driving conditions for the 1M which has too much torque to handle at the rear. There is a significant rear traction difference between these two imo. However, they are not a track tire and you may need to find the good pressure with them (which may be different than PS2) in addition to break-in. They are really good after break-in and maybe for the first 10,000 km. stay at peak of their performance. When they start getting harder after 2 years even with little mileage they start loosing their mojo a bit.

What would you say the correct pressure is for the PSS? I have them on too and I feel I could be getting better performance overall from other tires.

[Splinterz88]

The PSS seem to like a 37 psi when warmed up.

[ozinaldo]

Like the post before me suggests what really counts is how long and how exactly you drive the car every time you take it out; as an average? This should give you an indication for where to start as cold pressures in order to reach a working warm pressure relatively quickly and stay around there too. Also do you always drive alone with no load?

I usually have a short commute and don't track the car, rarely a passenger in the car; I find myself comfortable if I keep the tires 34 front 32 rear, cold pressures.

I think best is to try a few different pressures before deciding which suits your condition better.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by rick propas

I just had a full set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports fitted to my 1M after a long road trip and at ~22,500 miles

The tires are not broken in so I cannot comment on their performance but on my M roadster I did not like them nearly as much as the PS2s and when I nailed the accelerator in the coupé yesterday I got a flicker from the traction control light.

I see lots of folks loving the PSS as a road tire, but so far in two applications I am underwhelmed by them.

I'd be interested to hear other comments.

Take a couple weeks to break them in and get used to them, then see how you feel.

If you prize response, turn-in and feedback most of all the PSS will disappoint after the PS2. On the other hand in my experience break-away is much more progressive, dry grip is actually up, and wet grip is much better.

Your traction control light flickering is I think a red-herring. At full depth the tread blocks on the PSS will squirm significantly, and the traction control will read this as longitudinal slip and step in. This occurs significantly before the tire has reached peak grip, however- try it with TC off in the same conditions and I think you'll find the tires don't actually spin up, and as the tires break in this will probably happen less.

I drive with TC off, and much prefer the PSS mainly for the more progressive breakaway, but those who drive with TC on might differ. The best pro PS2 argument I've heard was Advevo (pro driver who has two 1Ms): He felt the PS2 was quicker at the 'ring than the PSS. My best explanation is that all the tread squirm overheated the PSS on that long lap, as I've consistently lapped quicker on PSS at shorter events and autocross.

Like most things it will come down to personal preference in the end, but I'd try to understand what you do and don't like about them.

[timbo_3101]

Thanks OP for raising a common topic, and also to the informative responses.

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Your traction control light flickering is I think a red-herring. At full depth the tread blocks on the PSS will squirm significantly, and the traction control will read this as longitudinal slip and step in. This occurs significantly before the tire has reached peak grip, however- try it with TC off in the same conditions and I think you'll find the tires don't actually spin up, and as the tires break in this will probably happen less.

Pete, is it true that the traction control light (DSC full or MDM mode) can actually flicker relatively more as high performance tyres are driven towards the limit? (Somewhat paradoxical, but I thought it was attributable to the higher grip of competition tyres being responsible for communicating greater slip to the on-board computer.)

I drive with TC off, and much prefer the PSS mainly for the more progressive breakaway, but those who drive with TC on might differ. The best pro PS2 argument I've heard was Advevo (pro driver who has two 1Ms): He felt the PS2 was quicker at the 'ring than the PSS. My best explanation is that all the tread squirm overheated the PSS on that long lap, as I've consistently lapped quicker on PSS at shorter events and autocross.

Yes I see others pulling an impressive 1.2g or 1.3g lateral with PSS on track-prepped cars. This was the same on the aggressive F80/F82 suspension at Istanbul Park Circuit. PSS will fail, just as all tyres do. Perhaps they fail earlier than competition tyres, but this is a matter of driver awareness. The limits of PSS performance are still higher than many drivers and many vehicles can extract.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

Pete, is it true that the traction control light (DSC full or MDM mode) can actually flicker relatively more as high performance tyres are driven towards the limit? (Somewhat paradoxical, but I thought it was attributable to the higher grip of competition tyres being responsible for communicating greater slip to the on-board computer.)

I think it's really going to come down to the individual tire. What matters is how springy a tire is, which determines slip vs grip. Generally the stickier the tire less it slips, both laterally and longitudinally, in a pattern similar to what's shown below.

Note lateral and longitudinal slip are different, and if you get really technical the amount of slip is speed dependent, as below:


Tire construction and tread (and size) make a big difference to the actual slip of a particular tire. Sticky tires generally have a soft rubber compound, which is "springier" and thus deflects more- we call that deflection "slip". However a race slick usually has no tread and a stiff sidewall to counteract this, meaning the tire overall is less springy.

Something like the PSS is a recipe for more slip: a fairly soft compound with smaller and taller tread blocks, plus a relatively soft sidewall for comfort. So it will deflect quite a bit. But a Pilot Sport Cup 2, with far wider and shallower tread blocks and a stiffer carcass/ sidewall construction, will "slip" much less and hence probably keep the TC light relatively quiet.

[Butse]

I doudt between the pss and the pss cup.i track a few times per year,and i only use My car fore fun,no daily drive!i have also a winterset.so most of the time i drive in dry conditions.can anyone give me a recommendation.has anyone already used the cup tires for the 1M???

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Butse

I doudt between the pss and the pss cup.i track a few times per year,and i only use My car fore fun,no daily drive!i have also a winterset.so most of the time i drive in dry conditions.can anyone give me a recommendation.has anyone already used the cup tires for the 1M???

I'd tell you to try some Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires for the summer as long as you don't drive in the rain/ standing water:
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/mich...ot-sport-cup-2

I'm getting a set as soon as the proper sizes are released in the US. No problem driving this type of tire on the road as long as it's warm and reasonably dry.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by rick propas

I just had a full set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports fitted to my 1M after a long road trip and at ~22,500 miles

The tires are not broken in so I cannot comment on their performance but on my M roadster I did not like them nearly as much as the PS2s and when I nailed the accelerator in the coup yesterday I got a flicker from the traction control light.

I see lots of folks loving the PSS as a road tire, but so far in two applications I am underwhelmed by them.

I'd be interested to hear other comments.

There no accounting for taste ?

You are definitely going to find that you are swimming upstream on this one.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Butse

I doudt between the pss and the pss cup.i track a few times per year,and i only use My car fore fun,no daily drive!i have also a winterset.so most of the time i drive in dry conditions.can anyone give me a recommendation.has anyone already used the cup tires for the 1M???

I used the cup tires, PS2s and SuperSports. The cup tires don't last very long. I primarily used them to autocross but drove them home several times. Don't work as well when cold, once you get them up to temperature they work well. I found the SuperSports to be better once broken in but didn't feel like the turn-in was as quick. They felt slightly softer than PS2s but everywhere else better. That might also be because my PS2s had only 1/3rd thread left when I put supersports, so they felt a little softer. Maybe if I had gotten them down that low, they also would've felt like crisper turn in.

I think the Poster is just underwhelmed because all of the hype. Our GTI came with Potenza RE-050 and the turn in was quick and immediate but they were loud too. Once switched to Michelins, they also felt better all-around but again not the razor like turn-in like the Potenza but quieter and overall grip was better, just felt slightly softer. I hope that helps.

[Kgolf31]

Tire squirm isn't significant in today's technology.

IMO, the PSS is nothing other than a glorified street tire. Besides that they hold no value to them on autocross or track...unless you like wasting money.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Tire squirm isn't significant in today's technology.

? Please expand. What do you think "tire squirm" is?

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

IMO, the PSS is nothing other than a glorified street tire. Besides that they hold no value to them on autocross or track...unless you like wasting money.

Neither autocross or track were mentioned anywhere in this thread. We're talking about street tires, so a glorified street tire seems just the ticket?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

? Please expand. What do you think "tire squirm" is?

Neither autocross or track were mentioned anywhere in this thread. We're talking about street tires, so a glorified street tire seems just the ticket?

"Tire Squirm" is when thick rubber, typically on a new tire literally squirms creating additional heat and loss of feel. Even the softest of compounds this is irrelevant and all myths. I have yet to see it actually effect a car.

I ran ZIIs on full tread and never had dreaded tire squirm.

Anyways...everyone is talking about turn-in, g-forces, ultimate street tire grip, traction light coming on...so this implies you're all either driving stupid on the street or track and autocross is going to occur.

Hankook RS3s, Dunlop ZIIs are street tires as well, and will run circles around PSS any day. It is hysterical how pathetic PSS tires really all, besides the people who drink the juice and think they are god like.

[Splinterz88]

@kgolf31 off topic but I will get back to you about the seat question.

We are talking about traction lights because with 1m it will easily spin tires in 1st,2nd and sometimes 3rd gear without acting a fool. I've had tire spin in 4th gear with worn ps2.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

"Tire Squirm" is when thick rubber, typically on a new tire literally squirms creating additional heat and loss of feel. Even the softest of compounds this is irrelevant and all myths. I have yet to see it actually effect a car.

Your statement shows a remarkable lack of insight into how tires work for someone that speaks with such confidence.

If the tread of a tire's tread doesn't squirm, why do you think manufacturers reduce tread depth as a tire gets sportier? A standard max performance street tire is generally molded between 10/32nds or more. Your Dunlops ZIIs drop this down to 8/32, and something sportier still like a Pilot Sport Cup 2 is down to 7/32. At the same time the tread blocks get larger, even if void area does not increase. Both of these are done to reduce tread block squirm.

Rubber flexes, that's its job. Go outside and press sideways on your tire's tread with your thumb and you'll feel it deflect. Now consider that when cornering at max load nearly half of the car’s weight, over 1600 lbs loaded, is hanging sideways off of a small hand full of rubber tread blocks that are sometimes not much wider than they are tall:


They are made of rubber, not steel. They deflect, contributing to the overall slip angle of the tire:

The fact that you're not able to feel it happening doesn't mean it's not- in fact it's a significant contributor to a tire's slip angle and its relaxation length.

I've got a set of Dunlop Sport Maxx Race tires- check out the shallow center groves with the 45 degree angle molded in to the tread blocks for support:

Does this mean every tire needs to be shaved to prevent overheating or be its fastest? No. But but every tire does squirm, with many it's actually not that hard to notice under the right conditions, and it might even be part of the reason you don't like the PSS even if you don't know it.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Hankook RS3s, Dunlop ZIIs are street tires as well, and will run circles around PSS any day. It is hysterical how pathetic PSS tires really all, besides the people who drink the juice and think they are god like.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However for an all around street-tire across a range of conditions it seems more than unfair to call the PSS "pathetic". For example, it swept the top spots in One Lap of America again this year:
http://www.tirerack.com/features/mot...astresults.jsp
Same as it's done for the last three years in a row. For this type of overall test the tires you mention were well back.

I've driven the tires you mention. I have RS-3s on a second set of rims now. You're entitled to your opinion that PSS are over-rated, but for an all-round street tire I'll disagree.

[rick propas]

Pete, thanks for this short course in Tire 101. Though know some of this stuff in theory, your comments and data put things into perspective.

Let's see how hey do on an upcoming trip up the Oregon Coast.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Your statement shows a remarkable lack of insight into how tires work for someone that speaks with such confidence.

If the tread of a tire's tread doesn't squirm, why do you think manufacturers reduce tread depth as a tire gets sportier? A standard max performance street tire is generally molded between 10/32nds or more. Your Dunlops ZIIs drop this down to 8/32, and something sportier still like a Pilot Sport Cup 2 is down to 7/32. At the same time the tread blocks get larger, even if void area does not increase. Both of these are done to reduce tread block squirm.

Rubber flexes, that's its job. Go outside and press sideways on your tire's tread with your thumb and you'll feel it deflect. Now consider that when cornering at max load nearly half of the car’s weight, over 1600 lbs loaded, is hanging sideways off of a small hand full of rubber tread blocks that are sometimes not much wider than they are tall:


They are made of rubber, not steel. They deflect, contributing to the overall slip angle of the tire:

The fact that you're not able to feel it happening doesn't mean it's not- in fact it's a significant contributor to a tire's slip angle and its relaxation length.

I've got a set of Dunlop Sport Maxx Race tires- check out the shallow center groves with the 45 degree angle molded in to the tread blocks for support:

Does this mean every tire needs to be shaved to prevent overheating or be its fastest? No. But but every tire does squirm, with many it's actually not that hard to notice under the right conditions, and it might even be part of the reason you don't like the PSS even if you don't know it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However for an all around street-tire across a range of conditions it seems more than unfair to call the PSS "pathetic". For example, it swept the top spots in One Lap of America again this year:
http://www.tirerack.com/features/mot...astresults.jsp
Same as it's done for the last three years in a row. For this type of overall test the tires you mention were well back.

I've driven the tires you mention. I have RS-3s on a second set of rims now. You're entitled to your opinion that PSS are over-rated, but for an all-round street tire I'll disagree.

Tire squirm is not as apparent as you thought. Yes, a tire load deflects but the "squirm" within tread blocks is not as apparent. Tire deflection and squirm are two different things.


One Lap of America is a specific event with limiting factors..like only carrying one spare/replacement tire.

How about you tune into the Toledo ProSolo results after this weekend and see how many people are running on PSS tires. I can bet none. Everyone can show cases that prove their point.

My point is, everyone in this thread is talking about turn-in...tire load...etc. To be talking about this for street use you must be driving like an asshat.

All I know is that ZIIs (and RS3s) have much, much more ultimate grip than what a PSS can EVER offer. Since everyone is talking about pushing tires to the limit, it was a broad assumption that these tires would be better situated for their use.

You can question all you want about my tire knowledge. But I well know what actually works on my car when pushed to the limit. I'm fairly sure not many people on the forum can say the same.

[Em/1]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Tire squirm is not as apparent as you thought. Yes, a tire load deflects but the "squirm" within tread blocks is not as apparent. Tire deflection and squirm are two different things.


One Lap of America is a specific event with limiting factors..like only carrying one spare/replacement tire.

How about you tune into the Toledo ProSolo results after this weekend and see how many people are running on PSS tires. I can bet none. Everyone can show cases that prove their point.

My point is, everyone in this thread is talking about turn-in...tire load...etc. To be talking about this for street use you must be driving like an asshat.

All I know is that ZIIs (and RS3s) have much, much more ultimate grip than what a PSS can EVER offer. Since everyone is talking about pushing tires to the limit, it was a broad assumption that these tires would be better situated for their use.

You can question all you want about my tire knowledge. But I well know what actually works on my car when pushed to the limit. I'm fairly sure not many people on the forum can say the same.

Well, your own words suggest that you are blowing more smoke that shedding light, but ironically Tire Rack data show that the street tire PSS is competitive in dry conditions with the ZII but blows away the ZII in the wet. As an all around street tire I think that is pretty relevant. I would expect them to last much longer in street conditions as well. No one on this post is proposing them as a track tire!

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Em/1

Well, your own words suggest that you are blowing more smoke that shedding light, but ironically Tire Rack data show that the street tire PSS is competitive in dry conditions with the ZII but blows away the ZII in the wet. As an all around street tire I think that is pretty relevant. I would expect them to last much longer in street conditions as well. No one on this post is proposing them as a track tire!

....

I was trying to prove a point, that you can provide any information to make the story favor your point of view.

PS - Tirerack surveys are a rough comparable. It shows RE-11a tires ranked above ZIIs and AD08s above RS3s...that both are FAR from even being close to the performance of ZIIs and RS3s....As well, the PSS and ZII/RS3 are in different categories.

Actually, I'd rank RS3s over all.

Once again, the way you guys are discussing tires in this thread it was like you actually autocrossed or tracked the car...or you're all driving nuts on the street. This is why I chimed in about the ZIIs. All seem quite defensive about your tires. Is it because you enjoy spending outrageous money on tires?


Anyways, this is a loosing battle. Have fun with PSS tires.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Tire deflection and squirm are two different things.

Tread block squirm is one component of tire deflection, and a critical one. Denying this suggests you could do a little less talking and a little more reading. You might start with some tire modeling articles:
Link
Link

Or the basics:
"One of the reasons radial racing slicks are so effective is because they feature shallow tread depths and their contact patch acts as a single unit. However, any tread design that breaks up the contact patch into smaller elements or adds additional tread depth (required to enhance wet traction) will increase tread block squirm and reduce dry performance."
Link

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

One Lap of America is a specific event with limiting factors..like only carrying one spare/replacement tire.

I've done One Lap- tire life is not a limiting factor as you seem to think. Instead a balanced combination of wet, dry, cool (first laps count) and hot performance is required. As it is on the street. Specialists like the RS-3 are slightly faster in the dry, but they lose enough in the wet that they have not yet been able to win top honors, despite trying. Some of these guys have budget and knowledge to run anything they want- I know one guy who organized a one day test between 7 different tires. They choose the PSS for a reason. Is it the greatest tire ever? Absolutely not. But calling it "pathetic" shows either your bias or ignorance.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

You can question all you want about my tire knowledge. But I well know what actually works on my car when pushed to the limit. I'm fairly sure not many people on the forum can say the same...

Yep, none of us know how to drive... Carry on.