Camber plate vs no camber plate

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

I am not familiar with the Z4M but I think they are not mcpherson strut and maybe double wishbone? either way, a bigger front ARB on our 135 actually induces more understeer. this is a known fact. although the benefits of less body roll out weights that drawback. the heavy deflection takes a toll on soft side walls unless you dial in a lot of negative camber. btw, I liked you mid-ohio hpde video. love to visit that track one day. looks like a lot of fun and high speed

I have McPherson front, Multi-Link rear.

I could be completely wrong, but that is what I learned/was told.

You should come out sometime. Let me know as I'll either be working the event and/or running if you come and play with NASA. It has been my only track I've visited but turn 1 is an absolute blast under the bridge.

[timhatimay]

Limiting understeer on the 135i is not a one step process in my experience, and not something that will just one day go away. However, various modifications can help tune the car to behave more desirably.

I have the Dinan plates and highly recommend them. The first modifications I did were M3 front sway bar, M3 front links, and tires. There are different opinions on the FSB, but I did feel an increase in front end grip following the modifications. I could see in auto-x pictures that in stock form, my car was rolling quite significantly, and there was noticeable positive camber mid-turn. Also, my tire outside wear decreased a lot following this set of modifications.

The next mods I did were the BMW Performance Suspension and Dinan Camber Plates. This made an even more dramatic improvement to the car. With the M3 components, BMWP suspension, and Dinan Plates I can go over -2* front camber, however I run -2* as a street/auto-x compromise. Now, there is no wear rolling onto the sidewall of the tire, and the outside part of the tire is not significantly more worn after an auto-x event.

In short, increasing the negative camber on the front will definitely help. The advantage to the Dinan plate is that all of the stock components and bearings are still used, and essentially its just shifted. You still have some minimal adjustment at the top of the strut. This means you should not be any more prone to noises, vibrations, etc. up front, and maintain a more stock-like ride. The adjustable plates will allow easier adjustment and much more range, so the performance is potentially much better if that's your primary focus.

Hope this helps,

Tim

[Pyrat 2]

Originally Posted by timhatimay

Limiting understeer on the 135i is not a one step process in my experience, and not something that will just one day go away. However, various modifications can help tune the car to behave more desirably.

I have the Dinan plates and highly recommend them. The first modifications I did were M3 front sway bar, M3 front links, and tires. There are different opinions on the FSB, but I did feel an increase in front end grip following the modifications. I could see in auto-x pictures that in stock form, my car was rolling quite significantly, and there was noticeable positive camber mid-turn. Also, my tire outside wear decreased a lot following this set of modifications.

The next mods I did were the BMW Performance Suspension and Dinan Camber Plates. This made an even more dramatic improvement to the car. With the M3 components, BMWP suspension, and Dinan Plates I can go over -2* front camber, however I run -2* as a street/auto-x compromise. Now, there is no wear rolling onto the sidewall of the tire, and the outside part of the tire is not significantly more worn after an auto-x event.

In short, increasing the negative camber on the front will definitely help. The advantage to the Dinan plate is that all of the stock components and bearings are still used, and essentially its just shifted. You still have some minimal adjustment at the top of the strut. This means you should not be any more prone to noises, vibrations, etc. up front, and maintain a more stock-like ride. The adjustable plates will allow easier adjustment and much more range, so the performance is potentially much better if that's your primary focus.

Hope this helps,

Tim

My guess is that you have already tamed the understeer beast, to the extent that it can be, with your set up. I'm running -1.5 camber and 235/40 and 245/35 tires and have zero understeer that i can sense at all. I've been to tracks including Road America with long, close to constant radius, carousels and can safely state that my understeer is negligible. I can easily adjust between neutral and oversteer by a very slight touch of the throttle even at 80+ mph - very balanced. BTW, I happen to have Dinan camber plates installed.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

...

Good sir, I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I'll have to come out to an event in your region some time.

[dcaron9999]

Thanks guys for all the valuable input and experiences. Will follow in your footsteps.

Now I just need to find best source(s) for M3 control arms, M3 Front Sway Bar, Dinan Camber plates, and perhaps BMW Perf suspension. I need a seller who wont kill me in shipping and brokerage fees to send the stuff to Canada. The sellers that offer USPS as a shipping option are the best, most efficient, and least costly for us up here.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Thanks guys for all the valuable input and experiences. Will follow in your footsteps.

Now I just need to find best source(s) for M3 control arms, M3 Front Sway Bar, Dinan Camber plates, and perhaps BMW Perf suspension. I need a seller who wont kill me in shipping and brokerage fees to send the stuff to Canada. The sellers that offer USPS as a shipping option are the best, most efficient, and least costly for us up here.

Make a trip to the states, get it installed at indy shop who gets you their pricing =)

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by 3002 Tii

Make a trip to the states, get it installed at indy shop who gets you their pricing =)

Not a bad idea for a road trip!
Any good shops in Platsburgh/NY or St Albans/Vermont area?

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Not a bad idea for a road trip!
Any good shops in Platsburgh/NY or St Albans/Vermont area?

Not familiar with the area but this might be a good link, these are all approved CCA tech shops:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/info...fiedshops.aspx

[dcaron9999]

Just got my car aligned this morning. They adjusted parralelism on all wheels (was off by .35* before). They adjusted camber on both rear wheels to -1.5* (was at -1.8* and -1.5* before). Removed the pin on the strut tower, and only managed to dial in -0.6* camber on both front wheels. They tuned in some minor toe out on my two axles.

I dont expect miracles, but will hopefully find that my car is a little more neutral at my next lapping session. NExt item on the list is to place an order for M3 control arms, perhaps before the lapping season ends here in Quebec, Canada (in a couple of weeks).

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by jafo1701

I also have the Dinan camber plates. Easy to install, if you've done suspension work before. I installed them the same time I did the BMW performance springs with Koni sport struts/shocks. I also have the M3 front control arms which gives me -2.1 front camber on both sides. I'm very happy with the suspension set up. Taking the 135i to the track for the first time in 2 weeks.

How was your 135i at the track after these mods?

I was thinking about camber plates (Dinan or GC) + M3 control arms on my 2011 135i with stock M-sport suspension. I use this car year round - dual purpose street (85%) mostly and track useage (~five 20-minute sessions/month).

I have a dedicated set of 205/50R17 street alloys and winter tires that will go on the car in late November until end of March. My street summer/track tires are 225/40R18F and 255/35R18R.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Freon

Good sir, I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I'll have to come out to an event in your region some time.

Indeed. I'll have to make it out your way sometimes as well.

I'm thinking of hitting up SCCA Tour in Peru next year for sure, as well as trying to hit Putnam Park (I wanted to go this year but have prior commitments for Oct 5th/6th)

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by Nugget

I endorse Dinan Camber plates and M3 control arms. With a good alignment set to -2.5 camber and zero toe, turn in will be transformed and you shouldn't chew through the tyres.

Thanks. This is likely the path I will follow.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by John_01

1.5 degrees front camber won't be enough. It will reduce the understeer problem, but you will still destroy the outside shoulder of your front tires. I had that experience using 1.3 degrees and nearly destroyed the front tires. 2.5 degrees should be better.

The car's handling will be a lot more neutral with the front negative camber added - so be careful! It would probably be a mistake to get a rear sway bar now, as it will shift the handling balance significantly and make it more demanding to drive.

Thanks for the tips, although tempted, I will leave the rear alone, and focus on the front for now. I may proceed with minor alignment adjusments in the rear, to compensate for the new parts (plates+arms) and more pronounced negative camber adjustments in the front.

[jafo1701]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

How was your 135i at the track after these mods?

I was thinking about camber plates (Dinan or GC) + M3 control arms on my 2011 135i with stock M-sport suspension. I used this car year round. It is Dual intention street mostly and track useage (~five 20-minute sessions/month).

I have a dedicated set of 205/50R17 street alloys and winter tires that will go on the car in late November until end of March. My street summer/track tires are 225/40R18F and 255/35R18R.

It was a bit lacking with the set up I mentioned above. Not overly impressed with it on the track. Trackable yes, but by no means the way I wanted it. I have since switched out the BMW performance springs for Swift springs, stiffened up the Konis and added M3 front swaybar. The car was transformed my next track day. It did everything I wanted it to do. My camber is now at -2.5 in front and -2.4 in the rear. I also previously had M3 subframe bushings and M3 rear upper control arm kit installed.
I would say try it out and figure out if its good enough for you. If not you can always add suspension and M3 bits as you go along. The weakest link will be your stock subframe bushings and you M sport dampers. The Konis are a great addition if you can spring for them. Many people have paired them up with the stock 2011 M sport springs and with good results.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

#3 - Camber plates (probably Dinan) to finalize the recipe, and reach a max of 3.0 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber.

That may be a bit optimistic. I have M3 control arms and Dinan plates and can only get -2.5 degrees at the front.
I just got it aligned last week and finished up with just over -2 degrees camber on the front, just under 2 degrees at the back.
Zero toe on the front, slight toe in on the back.
Feels good and IMO is a good compromise for a daily driven car that sees the track about once a month.

[dcaron9999]

I just got M3 control arms, and my GC street plates installed on my 135i M-sport primarily for track days to get extra grip in corners and reduce outside edge tire wear. I asked my indi shop to adjust them to max negative camber and optimal toe out for track, and told them i would re-adjust the plates myself for street use. They did not provide me a print out of the alignment, but took a picture of the display on their alignment machine, which they promised to send next week.

I feal somewhat embarassed, but not sure how to adjust the plates, beyond the 3 bolts at the top of the strut tower. The tower opening is small, and prevents access to the top of the GC plate adjustments.

My questions are :

#1 - For street and winter driving, do i just need to jack the side up, and slide the three strut tower bolts to utter outside position? Will this reduce negative camber to a reasonable value for the street?

#2 - If I want more pronounced reduction in negative camber, do I need to reach the plate adjustments at the top inside of the rear well? I assume I need to remove the wheel to get access to the plate. Maybe I should tinker with this, and let my local shop set it and forget it for the off-season (November to April)...

Thanks.

[Kgolf31]

You'll just need to loosen the top 3 bolts and pull/push the wheel to get the desired camber.

Beware, however...the toe will change and the specs will never be perfect after adjustments.

[John_01]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

#1 - For street and winter driving, do i just need to jack the side up, and slide the three strut tower bolts to utter outside position? Will this reduce negative camber to a reasonable value for the street?

Basically Yes. Except you will probably have trouble if jacking up only one side at a time. The sway bar will be will be fighting you trying to move the strut and you may not be able to position it exactly where you want. It will be easier if you get both front wheels off the ground at the same time. To do it safely, I suggest putting the front of the car on jack stands.

You will gain front toe-in when you reduce negative camber for a street setting. Anyway if its all too hard, it might be a good idea to just get it aligned at the shop. Apart from that, I want to ask how you enjoy the car with the new suspension and alignment. When I got to the car aligned with front toe-out, I actually didn't like it. It felt a bit twitchy both on the road and on the circuit. However I still have a lot to learn with setting up the car.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

You'll just need to loosen the top 3 bolts and pull/push the wheel to get the desired camber.

Beware, however...the toe will change and the specs will never be perfect after adjustments.

Thanks for your feedback.

I was aware of the toe in, which is prefereable for street anyway, as I understand it.

Im concerned that adjustments via the top three bolts will not give me enough POSITIVE camber, and that the GC camber plates also need a tug, but they would be a pain to get at, and is why I posted the question.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by John_01

Basically Yes. Except you will probably have trouble if jacking up only one side at a time. The sway bar will be will be fighting you trying to move the strut and you may not be able to position it exactly where you want. It will be easier if you get both front wheels off the ground at the same time. To do it safely, I suggest putting the front of the car on jack stands.

You will gain front toe-in when you reduce negative camber for a street setting. Anyway if its all too hard, it might be a good idea to just get it aligned at the shop. Apart from that, I want to ask how you enjoy the car with the new suspension and alignment. When I got to the car aligned with front toe-out, I actually didn't like it. It felt a bit twitchy both on the road and on the circuit. However I still have a lot to learn with setting up the car.

Thanks for your tips.


I was aware of the tendency to go from max negative camber with toe out for my track setting, to less negative camber with reduced toe in for my street, setting, which is desirable as I understand it.

Im concerned that adjustments via the top three bolts will not give me enough POSITIVE camber, and that the GC camber plates also need a tug, but they would be a pain to get at.

On the street, I feal a bit more harshness with m3 control arms + camber plates set for max camber. But taking curves at high speed is amazing, and is more precise. Cant wait to test this set up out on the track this week. Did not notice twitchiness for now, but I havent driven enough.

Top of the front tires are tucked into the wheel well, and Im considering wheels spacers to increase my track width a little, and give my car a better stance.

[TheBreeze]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Thanks for your feedback.

I was aware of the toe in, which is prefereable for street anyway, as I understand it.

Im concerned that adjustments via the top three bolts will not give me enough POSITIVE camber, and that the GC camber plates also need a tug, but they would be a pain to get at, and is why I posted the question.

I run with slight (1/16) toe-out in the front and slight (1/16) toe-in in the rear. Car is very stable, has great steering response, and tire wear is spot on. Also running Dinan plates, and M3 arms. The max camber I was able to achieve was -.6 on the stock setup. With the Dinan plates, M3 arms, and Dinan Stage I (lowered maybe 3/4") I'm at -1.8. Really don't understand how others are able to get beyond -2 ...

[dcaron9999]

Ive actually achieved -3.2* in the front with Ground Control plates, and M3 control arms, on stock springs and shock absorbers. Been great on the track BUT, I have a rattle noise issue with the GC Street plates, that no one seems to solve. I have had my shop double-check everything, I then received different rubber bushings and bolts from Ground Control, which I replaced while following their instructions. I still have a low pitched rattle noise over abrupt and tiny bumps in the road.

Im frankly frustrated about the whole ordeal, and time + money wasted + sore back trying to solve the rattling. May throw the plates away and return to stock, or fixed plates, or Vorshlag ...