Ordering BMW PS. What (if any) M3 (or other) parts should I consider to complement?

[bradford]

The best part about the M3 parts is that they should do away with the utter unpredictability that is the heart of the stock suspension. The way the rear end squirms and wiggles offer differential pavement surfaces is pretty disturbing. The the way that car sometimes bumpsteers is no picnic either. I would imagine that getting rid of the soft rubber bushings would give a proper clean slate to start tuning with, if necessary, and at the very least just make the car a lot more confident and repeatable with the stock struts and springs.

[niqui]

just curious , if u have an rs4, why do all this to your 135i....its already a capable car/
imho, you will practically have two of the same car in your driveway if you turn your 135 into an m...lighter and more nimble, but still.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by bradford

If it were me, and I had to choose between just the M3 parts or the BMW PS, I would take the M3 parts.

You can't polish a turd.

I can't see how a couple of control arms and a pair of bushings will offer better handling than a full revamp of dampers, springs, and anti-roll bars. If you know anything about suspension geometry (and have rode in a 135i spiritedly to know how shitty the stock suspension is), you won't make statements like that... I am willing to bet that a 1- with upgraded suspension (be it BMW PS, KWs, or others) will have better handling characteristics than leaving the suspension stock but changing control arms and bushings only.

Even if you add every single M3 goodie (thrust rods, antiroll bars, etc.), you will still be rolling on a subpar combination of dampers and springs if you stay stock. No question the M3 parts a re a good COMPLEMENT, but if you had to spend 1K on parts, better option IMO is dmapers and springs than borrowing off another BMW's parts bin...

[///M1]

Originally Posted by niqui

just curious , if u have an rs4, why do all this to your 135i....its already a capable car/
imho, you will practically have two of the same car in your driveway if you turn your 135 into an m...lighter and more nimble, but still.

In short - because I am a nut and mod junkie! LOL

Truth be told, every car I have owned in the last decade I have modified heavily (Brabus W208 CLK, E39 M5 which was a few [Dinan] parts short of a full Dinan S2, and now the RS4). All these cars had one thing in common - a naturally aspirated engine where modding potential is extremely limited. For example, I have spend north of $15K on performance enhacing parts for my M5 when a $500 JB3 brought more whp gains on the 1-!

I quickly came to a peak on the RS4. With 100hp per liter on a NA engine, there isn't much you can do. I upgraded the suspension to arguably the best suspension tuner for the B7 Audi - Stasis Engineering (dampers are made by Ohlin) and have coilovers with an external reservoir in the the engine bay where with a click of a nob you change settings instantaneously - offering great versatility of you are on the track and want firmness, or want comfort on the street. It will outhandle anything stock out there, short of a super exotic (though my friend who owns a Gallardo Spyder thinks the RS4 outhandles his car!)

With a couple of more mods, the 135i will make significantly more whp than the RS4. As Porsche says, Power is nothing without Control! It is stupid to make a car 400whp (my target) and leave it on its stock suspension, which arguably does not befit the car well even in stock form.

Will they be similar at the end of the day when I complete my 1-Frankenstein? No, not at all. The 1- is 600lbs lighter, more nimble, and will be significantly quicker on a straightaway. On a road course it won't (e.g. look at the Nurburgring times of the RS4, until the CTS-V and Panamera Turbo, the RS4 was the quickest sedan for several yrs, far quicker than an M5, E55/63, RS6, etc.) So I don't think the 1- and RS4 are substitutes, in fact they are the perfect complement, one reason I got the 1. One is NA, other is FI, one is a coupe, other is family sedan. One is RWD, other is a Polaris in the winter. What do they have in common - both will be a wolf in sheeps clothing!

[MastaMind]

Originally Posted by ///M1

I can't see how a couple of control arms and a pair of bushings will offer better handling than a full revamp of dampers, springs, and anti-roll bars. If you know anything about suspension geometry (and have rode in a 135i spiritedly to know how shitty the stock suspension is), you won't make statements like that... I am willing to bet that a 1- with upgraded suspension (be it BMW PS, KWs, or others) will have better handling characteristics than leaving the suspension stock but changing control arms and bushings only.

Even if you add every single M3 goodie (thrust rods, antiroll bars, etc.), you will still be rolling on a subpar combination of dampers and springs if you stay stock. No question the M3 parts a re a good COMPLEMENT, but if you had to spend 1K on parts, better option IMO is dmapers and springs than borrowing off another BMW's parts bin...

Generally, I would agree with you. In the case of the 1 series, however, I will have to say that, and this is just my opinion/perception, they are both equally important, at least for the rear. I appreciate the increased feedback and less slop from the front tension rods, but the rear bushings are what made me fall in love with my car again.

Just so there are no misconceptions, I really do hope you are satisfied after the PS is installed. But if you still find the setup a bit (or a lot) lacking, at least you know what direction to go.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by ///M1

I can't see how a couple of control arms and a pair of bushings will offer better handling than a full revamp of dampers, springs, and anti-roll bars. If you know anything about suspension geometry (and have rode in a 135i spiritedly to know how shitty the stock suspension is), you won't make statements like that... I am willing to bet that a 1- with upgraded suspension (be it BMW PS, KWs, or others) will have better handling characteristics than leaving the suspension stock but changing control arms and bushings only.

Even if you add every single M3 goodie (thrust rods, antiroll bars, etc.), you will still be rolling on a subpar combination of dampers and springs if you stay stock. No question the M3 parts a re a good COMPLEMENT, but if you had to spend 1K on parts, better option IMO is dmapers and springs than borrowing off another BMW's parts bin...

I guess it depends what you mean by "better handling characteristics". If you mean that the car will roll less in turns, then yeah, putting in the BMW PS and some roll bars will do that better. But if you mean establishing a repeatable chassis dynamic on which to further tune if necessary, then eliminating the OEM jigglies is a better option. You can put a $7000 Moton kit on the car and it won't be able to do its job correctly because the jello-soft stock bushings will be deflecting all over the place.

I can basically take your argument and reverse it. "Even if you add every single M3 goodie (thrust rods, antiroll bars, etc.), you will still be rolling on a subpar combination of dampers and springs if you stay stock." IMHO, even if you add the BMW PS and roll bars, you will still be rolling on a subpar combination junk bushings throughout the suspension = trying to polish a turd.

And don't give me this crap: "If you know anything about suspension geometry (and have rode in a 135i spiritedly to know how shitty the stock suspension is), you won't make statements like that". I've been instructing at the track for various clubs for years, and I've spent hours taking a 135i to it's limit on track. Here's a synopsis: It's a great car but the suspension is garbage.

Whatever route you decide to go, good luck with it. There's a lot more to optimizing a suspension than eliminating body roll. You've completely neglected camber angle altogether, so I'm led to believe that your understanding of the topic is cursory at best.

[MastaMind]

Originally Posted by bradford

I guess it depends what you mean by "better handling characteristics". If you mean that the car will roll less in turns, then yeah, putting in the BMW PS and some roll bars will do that better. But if you mean establishing a repeatable chassis dynamic on which to further tune if necessary, then eliminating the OEM jigglies is a better option. You can put a $7000 Moton kit on the car and it won't be able to do its job correctly because the jello-soft stock bushings will be deflecting all over the place.

I can basically take your argument and reverse it. "Even if you add every single M3 goodie (thrust rods, antiroll bars, etc.), you will still be rolling on a subpar combination of dampers and springs if you stay stock." IMHO, even if you add the BMW PS and roll bars, you will still be rolling on a subpar combination junk bushings throughout the suspension = trying to polish a turd.

And don't give me this crap: "If you know anything about suspension geometry (and have rode in a 135i spiritedly to know how shitty the stock suspension is), you won't make statements like that". I've been instructing at the track for various clubs for years, and I've spent hours taking a 135i to it's limit on track. Here's a synopsis: It's a great car but the suspension is garbage.

Whatever route you decide to go, good luck with it. There's a lot more to optimizing a suspension than eliminating body roll. You've completely neglected camber angle altogether, so I'm led to believe that your understanding of the topic is cursory at best.

Yes, exactly! Just adding springs and dampers really doesn't do enough to control the motion in the rear. Honestly, it felt like the rear was softly sprung due to the amount of deflection in the stock, soft bushings. The subframe bushings basically allow the springs/dampers to do their job.

[///M1]

Guys, this thread is veering in the wrong direction. People are becoming defensive for no reason, so let's stick to the topic at hand, which is discussing relevant add-ons to the BMW PS.

So back to the topic as per the thread title, I am installing the BMW PS in a couple of weeks. Why did I choose it over other options - frankly because it is free to me (the good side of being a wild spender on my BMW CC), short of a small reasonable labor charge. To me there is no downside, if I feel it still doesn't address my needs, I will easily toss it, and sell it for what the labor cost me. Not a bad situation if "all fails".

Do I think it is the full end of day solution - no. We all agree the stock suspension is garbage, so it would be easy to improve on it. I could choose the 'easier' and less educated perhaps route and slap a pre-canned solution a given tuner 'recommends' (e.g. Dinan Koni package, which I had [stage 3] on my M5 and still kept me searching for more, or Bimmerworld's TC Kline recommendation), or alternatively build my own a la cart and incrementally address each flaw that remains. I opt for the latter. Hence why I'll start with the dampers and shocks + front anti-roll bar. Based on the relevant contribution I have gotten here, seems the rear subframe bushings are a second natural upgrade. So that will likely be next, but do want to have some seat time in the BMW PS (all else being equal) before I add new increments.

So thx for all that had relevant contributions, and I will keep those who care abreast of my thoughts. My hands are itching to get some mods in, and if all goes well all my 'on order mods' (BMW PS, Maddad midpipes+axel back, P3 digital vent boost gauge) will come in by month's end!

[Chicago135i]

To complement the PS (other than the M3 parts)...camber plates. An absolute must and a VERY easy install with a lot of labor overlap on your PS install.

I would skip the ARBs until you decide you want the M3 rear subframe bushings, because the rear ARB goes up over the subframe in the back, and there will be a lot of labor overlap there too.

[jabwind51]

Originally Posted by ///M1

PS:...coaching/participating/racing in events such as: Winter Drifting Clinics (Finland), go-cart series (across Europe), State-side and European private events (e.g. Infineon, Lime Rock, Quattro GmbH and ///M events @ Salzburg Austria, etc.), 24hr endurance races (Spa Francorchamps Belgium), representing various pilots in GP2 and F1 technical personnel (and having the benefit to play around with their gear, wind tunnels, etc.)...

I'd say if I did 1/4 of this I would be a very happy lad (not to take sides or anything)......

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Chicago135i

To complement the PS (other than the M3 parts)...camber plates. An absolute must and a VERY easy install with a lot of labor overlap on your PS install.

I would skip the ARBs until you decide you want the M3 rear subframe bushings, because the rear ARB goes up over the subframe in the back, and there will be a lot of labor overlap there too.

Thx, Chicago. Funny, I was looking at Dinan's site tonight for those. I had them on my M5, and actually contrary to Dinan's disclaimer, my tire wear was pretty even, so def up for dialing some more "-" camber.

Other than Dinan, anyone have experience with other camber plates? Typical Dinan pricing of $200 for simple hardware...

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=792&page=2

[vitig]

Anybody knows if is possible mounting the subframe bushings whit a bushing press extractor don´t be bmw?.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by ///M1

coaching/participating/racing in events such as: Winter Drifting Clinics (Finland), go-cart series (across Europe), State-side and European private events (e.g. Infineon, Lime Rock, Quattro GmbH and ///M events @ Salzburg Austria, etc.), 24hr endurance races (Spa Francorchamps Belgium), representing various pilots in GP2 and F1 technical personnel (and having the benefit to play around with their gear, wind tunnels, etc.) add to nothing, than yes, my knowledge on all suspension matters, and in fact anything car-related is cursory.[/SIZE][/I]

Fancy. However, we can only base our opinions on your posts here. Sorry.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by ///M1

Thx, Chicago. Funny, I was looking at Dinan's site tonight for those. I had them on my M5, and actually contrary to Dinan's disclaimer, my tire wear was pretty even, so def up for dialing some more "-" camber.

Other than Dinan, anyone have experience with other camber plates? Typical Dinan pricing of $200 for simple hardware...

http://www.dinancars.com/store/produ...cat=792&page=2

Yeah, since they're non-adjustable and net you -.7degrees of camber, per the Dinan website, perhaps the.........ummmmmmmmmm..........BMW M3 lower wishbones(!) might be a better option, since they're cheaper (barely), you the same (more) neg camber, eliminate the jelloplay of the stock link, and are likely more warranty-friendly.

[///M1]

Picked up the latest Roundel, there is a small section on the TC Kline 135i (which hopefully will be allowed in some form of racing series, as it has been rejected by the Koni Challenge series [now renamed to Continental Challenge for 2010], but still exploring a Grand Am entry). Interesting comments that confirm what has been stated ^^^ about the M3 rear subframe bushings.

Per Kline's own words: "One of the first things you need to do with the 135i if you upgrade the suspension is put the M3 subframe bushings in it. The bushings are way too soft in the 1- and 3- series cars. If you do any kind of suspension upgrade and keep the stock bushings, the back end will bounce... Even if you put the stock M3 rear springs in a 135 or 335, the car would be really bouncy over bumps, because the subframe bushings are going to deflect 1-1 1/2 inches... For the M3, BMW used better bushings instead of the mushy stuff used in the other cars... Replacing the bushings is key."

So definitely will have these on, but the original plan remains, I will do it incrementally (especially as there is no labor synergies) and judge the marginal contribution of each. For now, my BMW PS is in stock and will ship hopefully later this week. But bushings are def a quick next!

[MastaMind]

At least this way you'll be able to feel the effects of each mod. I have that same issue but had not read it until you pointed out the TC Kline article--decent read.

Let us know how you like the PS setup.

[Sk8fe]

I know this is an older thread, but this is exactly what I am looking to do now. How much negative camber did you get with just installing the BMW Performance Suspension kit (with springs)?

Moreover, if anyone knows, if also adding the M3 suspension components that various vendors have for sale for the 135 to the BMW Performance Suspension kit, what negative camber settings can one achieve with these M3 components and the BMW Performance Suspension kit?

Finally, I have also read threads about removing the "Guide Pins" to gain additional negative camber up front? When the BMW Performance Suspension kit is installed will they use these "Guide Pins" to install the kit or not? Does anyone have any data on what is the total negative camber one can achieve installing the BMW Performance Suspension kit (with springs), the M3 component kit for the 135 (front control arm/tension strut retrofit kit) and removing the "Guide Pins" (again, assuming that is applicable in this situation).

Thanks.

[dcaron9999]

Removing guide pins offers a max of -0.6 camber. Every thing you do such as m3 control arms(adds another -0.75), shorter springs, etc., can be used together for max neg camber. Adjustable camber plates add the most camber (+1.x to -2.x).

Again, all of the above can be used for cumulative effect, depending on what you are after.

I have opted for removal of guide pin, M3 control arms, and camber plates.