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      09-07-2009, 08:36 AM   #23
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Something I noticed today in DTC - and I found it potentially more dangerous than have everything off. I thought it's time to play when the road is wet, but I ended up over adjusting twice with DTC on. As I detect slippage, I react by counter steering, and all I ended up is on the other lane still facing the same way! I induced the oversteer, so I was expecting it and I made sure there's no cars around just in case, but what I didn't expect was that it brings traction back very quickly, and I basically going to the next lane.

I am thinking may be I just shouldn't do anything and hold the line and let the computer to do the work, but then again - not sure if I am going to try again...
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      09-07-2009, 09:03 AM   #24
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I have found that the lack of mechanic LSD will give this affect too.

My 325i coupe used to snap back in terribly in comparison to the sideways Nirvana that my M3's used to afford me.
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      09-07-2009, 06:08 PM   #25
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sparoz, just a thought, but if you felt as though you needed that much op lock to correct, without DTC it was likely you were about to loop it....
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      09-07-2009, 06:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post

I am thinking may be I just shouldn't do anything and hold the line and let the computer to do the work, but then again - not sure if I am going to try again...
Unfortunately, that's what it's there for.

Dumbass drivers who can't control their car in the wet and who won't oversteer with a heel/toe to bring the car back.

I had a similar situation in my WRX without TC on, going around a roundabout in the wet. I lost the front wheels, close to hard lock, sliding straight forward in a right hand turn. I quickly handbraked with a little force of right-pedal and the car came back very nicely.

Put someone who doesn't understand car dynamics in that situation and they'll floor the brake and slide into the barrier.

Hence, DTC is born.
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      09-07-2009, 08:07 PM   #27
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I wonder how long it will be before insurance companies start denying claims if they find the ASC/DSC/DTC/XYZ is turned off at the time of the accident.....
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      09-07-2009, 08:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taymaishu View Post
Put someone who doesn't understand car dynamics in that situation and they'll floor the brake and slide into the barrier.

Hence, DTC is born.
And yet, driver training sessions I've been to teach that the best thing to do in that situation is mash your brake pedal through the firewall.

What you did is all fine and dandy if you have been to an LVMA day or two and understand how your particular car will handle (however, it sounds like you made a big mistake at the start of the roundabout and ploughed into the corner way too hard). Nevertheless, the majority of drivers out there have a) never used their handbrake other than to stop their car rolling into the loungeroom, and b) don't have the confidence to do such a maneouvre on the streets (and in my viewpoint, no one should really be throwing handbrake turns on the streets anyway), so standing on the anchors and letting ABS do its magic, back up the car embarrassed, and live to fight another day, is probably the best option.
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      09-07-2009, 08:31 PM   #29
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well said.
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      09-07-2009, 08:53 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BMWRX View Post
And yet, driver training sessions I've been to teach that the best thing to do in that situation is mash your brake pedal through the firewall.

What you did is all fine and dandy if you have been to an LVMA day or two and understand how your particular car will handle (however, it sounds like you made a big mistake at the start of the roundabout and ploughed into the corner way too hard). Nevertheless, the majority of drivers out there have a) never used their handbrake other than to stop their car rolling into the loungeroom, and b) don't have the confidence to do such a maneouvre on the streets (and in my viewpoint, no one should really be throwing handbrake turns on the streets anyway), so standing on the anchors and letting ABS do its magic, back up the car embarrassed, and live to fight another day, is probably the best option.
I completely agree with everything you said - and yes, it's self-evident that I was going too fast as i lost traction (however it's not like I was hammering).

It's not like i'm disagreeing with you at all - quite the opposite. DTC was born for those people (the ultimate majority by a long way) who don't use driving dynamics to pull themselves out of tricky situations.

However.. There was one situation where using the handbrake (and a huge amount of strength) has possibly saved my life. In that same car, i had a blowout on the M2 freeway in Sydney, after the M2 Tunnel. The front left went, and the wheel reefed itself to the left, aiming me straight at the left concrete barrier. I jammed the brake as a matter of reaction, but as i was doing 100km/h (legal limit there), and due to the shredding of the tyre, i wasn't stopping.

Right hand on the left side of the wheel, under one of the driving wheel 'spokes', and pulled the shit out of the wheel. Once over to the right, touched the handbrake up, fishtailed it back and slid into the brakedown bay.

It took me about 30 minutes to get my heart-rate down and an M2 patrol car came and helped me change the wheel after they saw it on CCTV out of the tunnel.

I was hesitant to drive for a week after that incident, but i firmly believe had i not pulled up the h-brake, i would have plowed into that wall.
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      09-07-2009, 10:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taymaishu View Post
I completely agree with everything you said - and yes, it's self-evident that I was going too fast as i lost traction (however it's not like I was hammering).

It's not like i'm disagreeing with you at all - quite the opposite. DTC was born for those people (the ultimate majority by a long way) who don't use driving dynamics to pull themselves out of tricky situations.

However.. There was one situation where using the handbrake (and a huge amount of strength) has possibly saved my life. In that same car, i had a blowout on the M2 freeway in Sydney, after the M2 Tunnel. The front left went, and the wheel reefed itself to the left, aiming me straight at the left concrete barrier. I jammed the brake as a matter of reaction, but as i was doing 100km/h (legal limit there), and due to the shredding of the tyre, i wasn't stopping.

Right hand on the left side of the wheel, under one of the driving wheel 'spokes', and pulled the shit out of the wheel. Once over to the right, touched the handbrake up, fishtailed it back and slid into the brakedown bay.

It took me about 30 minutes to get my heart-rate down and an M2 patrol car came and helped me change the wheel after they saw it on CCTV out of the tunnel.

I was hesitant to drive for a week after that incident, but i firmly believe had i not pulled up the h-brake, i would have plowed into that wall.
Understeering, handbrake turns around roundabouts and high speed tyre blowouts - it sounds like your driving life is one big Nascar event. I might have to pack a helmet if you ever offer me a lift.

If I was in the same situation, I'd still think maintaining traction with the road surface was the best option, so I'd give the handbrake a miss (I'd imagine as the front left was retarding your forward motion, that applying the handbrake may have the potential to throw you into a left hand spin). Anyway, you're still alive and kicking, so at the end of the day that's the most important thing (it's easy for me to dissect your actions now after the fact, but in the heat of the moment you did what you thought was the best thing and you walked away inscathed).

Ok, back on topic...........
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      09-07-2009, 10:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWRX View Post
Understeering, handbrake turns around roundabouts and high speed tyre blowouts - it sounds like your driving life is one big Nascar event. I might have to pack a helmet if you ever offer me a lift.
I just like to enjoy the full range of driving experiences that my motor vehicles have to offer.

DTC is fantastic - especially for hill take-offs. My driveway is about 40 degrees (no shit), so going up in the morning especially after/during rain can be a huge pain. I will also usually sweep the driveway if there are leaves on it and it's been raining. DTC is always on - can't imagine what it would be like trying to go up that driveway without it!!!!
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      09-07-2009, 11:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieRacer View Post
sparoz, just a thought, but if you felt as though you needed that much op lock to correct, without DTC it was likely you were about to loop it....
The fact is I didn't even have a chance to dial much in - it was:

- Throttle to induce oversteer
- Start to feel tail coming out - throttle off, start dialing the steering
- DTC light flashing after I just starting to dial in steering
- Car gone back into traction almost straight away and I just went where I was pointing..

The moral of the story is - not doing it again until I learn how to use DTC. Just don't have enough experience with the car in the conditions plus I just don't have enough experience.

The reason why I posted to start off with is that many people think DTC is the fun mode (may be in the dry or in a start line), but it is extremely dangerous when you have no idea how the system would behave. I guess I didn't think I would be in troble with DSC off and DTC on, but I could have been if I choose to be silly in the wrong traffic condition. Just a warning to everyone who thinks DTC mode = fun mode.

May be someone who has more experience with DTC mode can shed some light on how to make it fun. May be just holding the line and it'll do all the trick and let you slide a little bit but still hold the line - but then again.. that's just not fun either - it just burns more rubber.
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      09-07-2009, 11:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
The fact is I didn't even have a chance to dial much in - it was:

- Throttle to induce oversteer
- Start to feel tail coming out - throttle off, start dialing the steering
- DTC light flashing after I just starting to dial in steering
- Car gone back into traction almost straight away and I just went where I was pointing..

The moral of the story is - not doing it again until I learn how to use DTC. Just don't have enough experience with the car in the conditions plus I just don't have enough experience.

The reason why I posted to start off with is that many people think DTC is the fun mode (may be in the dry or in a start line), but it is extremely dangerous when you have no idea how the system would behave. I guess I didn't think I would be in troble with DSC off and DTC on, but I could have been if I choose to be silly in the wrong traffic condition. Just a warning to everyone who thinks DTC mode = fun mode.

May be someone who has more experience with DTC mode can shed some light on how to make it fun. May be just holding the line and it'll do all the trick and let you slide a little bit but still hold the line - but then again.. that's just not fun either - it just burns more rubber.
I like you Sparoz. Your post made me nod.
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      09-08-2009, 12:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWRX View Post
Understeering, handbrake turns around roundabouts and high speed tyre blowouts - it sounds like your driving life is one big Nascar event. I might have to pack a helmet if you ever offer me a lift.
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      09-08-2009, 02:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparoz View Post
- Start to feel tail coming out - throttle off, start dialing the steering
And that's why she corrected too quickly. DTC ain't to blame there.
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      09-08-2009, 02:45 AM   #37
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99% of the time i drive with that thing off! but that been said it did save me once in the rain when i was vs my frds cayman!
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      09-08-2009, 03:32 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieRacer View Post
And that's why she corrected too quickly. DTC ain't to blame there.
Fair enough . I should learn how to drive.
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      09-08-2009, 07:30 AM   #39
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The main "benefit" of DTC in the wet is you just keep your foot planted, or have a slight breath on the throttle. She'll step out of line a little, but won't do anything silly.

Have DTC off, and you'll need careful throttle control/balance to keep it from over stepping the mark. A quick step off the gas retards acceleration, which causes a weight transfer rearwards, which combined with the slowing of the excess rotation causes the rears to grip up and push the car the direction they are pointing. If that is different to the steering angle she'll tank slap like you experienced. DTC can only help so much with the parameters it is already aware of, so if you change the parameters on it (quickly off throttle) its actions may be thwarted.
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      10-19-2009, 09:25 PM   #40
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Where did "Tim YoYo" mode come from?

Never head of it before.
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      10-19-2009, 09:35 PM   #41
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Id say from someone who use to drive a low powered fwd car stepped into a rwd and thought it was scary when they turned off traction control
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      10-19-2009, 10:50 PM   #42
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Where did "Tim YoYo" mode come from?

Never head of it before.
That's It, Motherf&$^*$ - You're On Your Own.
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      11-14-2009, 11:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
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That's It, Motherf&$^*$ - You're On Your Own.
...i'm on my own within 5 seconds of starting the car most of the time , but why "Tim Yoyo"
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      11-15-2009, 12:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
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...i'm on my own within 5 seconds of starting the car most of the time , but why "Tim Yoyo"
That's It Mother#$%^&#, You're On Your Own - TIM YOYO.
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