135 is coming!!!

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by Brookside

Hah! I grew up with that sound...and that smell and hated it.
No matter how wonderful and convincing the arguement for diesel is...it'll always be an emotional turn-off for me.
You make a good point about research...I've thought that BMW has come as close as any manufacturer to making a state-of-the-art gasoline fueled internal combustion engine.

So I guess you grew up in Europe?
And it is an emotional turn off especially in small BMW coupé.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by PierrePHRWEAUX

Because I just think US is the eldorado for people who like gasoline engine:smile: . And if US market becomes 70% diesel, then which manufacturer is going to develop engine like the 3.0 TT if they can't sell it. And also, the main reason why diesel has expand like that in Europe is because diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline for taxes purpose, and then euro manufacturer have spent millions to develop high tech diesel , money they didn't spend on gas engine. It tends to change now as some manufacturers start developping small gasoline fuel-efficient turbo engine. But it's too late, at least in france, and now it smells bad in the streets and the only engine sound you can hear is 'clac clac clac clac'.

I hear what you're saying, gas engine is ultimately the sexier choice for sure. But when in comes down to fuel economy, I think the advantage of diesel over gas engine is more than just skin deep, as the difference in compression ratio fundamentally sets them apart. Even with infinitely advanced knock control, the best a gas engine can do is to approach that limit of detonation ever closer. A diesel engine, on the other hand, by its nature operates with much higher CR. And with modern diesels pumping out similar HP/Liter to top class gas engines and gobs more torque, I think they are quite attractive.

But then again I didn't grow up around diesels, so they are kinna mystical to me. :biggrin:

[Brookside]

Originally Posted by PierrePHRWEAUX

So I guess you grew up in Europe?
And it is an emotional turn off especially in small BMW coupé.

Yes, I lived in Germany for 12 years.
I'd love to go back again & drive through what was Eastern Europe.. the Alan Furst spy novels have gotten to me.

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by spinzero

I hear what you're saying, gas engine is ultimately the sexier choice for sure. But when in comes down to fuel economy, I think the advantage of diesel over gas engine is more than just skin deep, as the difference in compression ratio fundamentally sets them apart. Even with infinitely advanced knock control, the best a gas engine can do is to approach that limit of detonation ever closer. A diesel engine, on the other hand, by its nature operates with much higher CR. And with modern diesels pumping out similar HP/Liter to top class gas engines and gobs more torque, I think they are quite attractive.

But then again I didn't grow up around diesels, so they are kinna mystical to me. :biggrin:

Actually, the main difference is that the carnot cycle (gasoline engine) has a theoretical efficiency of 37% and the diesel cycle 42% (So just 5% gap in efficiency). So if the mileage of car was measured in miles per Kjoules, the difference would be less than what it is in mpg. 1 gallon of diesel contains more energy than 1 gallon of gas.
I am a little bit fundamentalist on that. Diesel (especially 6 cyl) can be good on some kind of cars, but not on a sport coupe.
I also practice cycling and I can tell you that there is really a difference when I train around cars in US and in France. Diesel exhaust gas really sucks with the particules, but the diesels you will get in US will be the cleanests, and you will get 6 cylinders, so not so bad. But even a 6 cylinders diesel vibrates at idle and what is really diferent is how the engine behaves, the torque just decreases after 2500 rpm which make the sensations really differents.

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by Brookside

Yes, I lived in Germany for 12 years.
I'd love to go back again & drive through what was Eastern Europe.. the Alan Furst spy novels have gotten to me.

you should go, and visit France too.

[imported_tdc]

No, LSD standard for the 135i. Probably something that will be available through the new BMW Performance catalog.

And yes, in the US it is officially called the 135i. No 2-series designation.

[hector]

Originally Posted by spinzero

. And with modern diesels pumping out similar HP/Liter to top class gas engines and gobs more torque...

torque yes but i believe that diesels are still far behind in hp/L even with the recent advancements(higher rev limits etc.)-the petrol engines also get revvier all the time. also, although the torque is great it's my impression that often these super-torquey diesels aren't offered with manuals because of lack of a manual clutch with an adequate torque rating. i personally would be very interested in a 335d for example or a torquey 1er if it came with stick.

[hoefx]

Originally Posted by tdc

No, LSD standard for the 135i. Probably something that will be available through the new BMW Performance catalog.

And yes, in the US it is officially called the 135i. No 2-series designation.

How important is the LSD?

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by hector

torque yes but i believe that diesels are still far behind in hp/L even with the recent advancements(higher rev limits etc.)-the petrol engines also get revvier all the time. also, although the torque is great it's my impression that often these super-torquey diesels aren't offered with manuals because of lack of a manual clutch with an adequate torque rating. i personally would be very interested in a 335d for example or a torquey 1er if it came with stick.

How about a 1.9L diesel with 188HP?

http://dieselblog.net/2007/06/fiat-i...h-100-hpliter/

:biggrin:

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by PierrePHRWEAUX

Actually, the main difference is that the carnot cycle (gasoline engine) has a theoretical efficiency of 37% and the diesel cycle 42% (So just 5% gap in efficiency). So if the mileage of car was measured in miles per Kjoules, the difference would be less than what it is in mpg. 1 gallon of diesel contains more energy than 1 gallon of gas.
I am a little bit fundamentalist on that. Diesel (especially 6 cyl) can be good on some kind of cars, but not on a sport coupe.
I also practice cycling and I can tell you that there is really a difference when I train around cars in US and in France. Diesel exhaust gas really sucks with the particules, but the diesels you will get in US will be the cleanests, and you will get 6 cylinders, so not so bad. But even a 6 cylinders diesel vibrates at idle and what is really diferent is how the engine behaves, the torque just decreases after 2500 rpm which make the sensations really differents.

Pierre, I am way too lazy to look up my undergrad thermodynamics book. But I thought Carnot cycle was just an ideal heat engine with the highest efficiency possible, and I don't see how it is more related to a gas engine than a diesel, or vice versa. Can you explain this for me?

[SCA]

Originally Posted by hoefx

How important is the LSD?

Very important...Many 335i owners wish that an LSD was optional. The car really needs it to keep the power down on the road. The 1-Series coupe will certainly need it even more due to the shorter wheelbase and the loss of some weight compared to the 3-Series.

[hector]

[quote=PierrePHRWEAUX;3312]Actually, the main difference is that the carnot cycle (gasoline engine) has a theoretical efficiency of 37% and the diesel cycle 42% (So just 5% gap in efficiency)....quote]

would not the difference in efficiency be better conceptualized as 13.5%(42/37) in the sense that this ratio would translate to perhaps a comparabe fuel-efficiency ratio?

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by hector

would not the difference in efficiency be better conceptualized as 13.5%(42/37) in the sense that this ratio would translate to perhaps a comparabe fuel-efficiency ratio?

Good point. Yes, that's right.

[hector]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Good point. Yes, that's right.

yeah, that 5% figure was totally misleading.

[hector]

Originally Posted by spinzero

How about a 1.9L diesel with 188HP?

http://dieselblog.net/2007/06/fiat-i...h-100-hpliter/

:biggrin:

wow, that is a lot of hp/l. ok, i'll take it but give me my stick!
wonder what the rev-limit is on that.

[eMINI]

Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver

Very important...Many 335i owners wish that an LSD was optional. The car really needs it to keep the power down on the road. The 1-Series coupe will certainly need it even more due to the shorter wheelbase and the loss of some weight compared to the 3-Series.

So... what's the story on the availability of LSD for 135? It's really a must-have for a performance car.

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Pierre, I am way too lazy to look up my undergrad thermodynamics book. But I thought Carnot cycle was just an ideal heat engine with the highest efficiency possible, and I don't see how it is more related to a gas engine than a diesel, or vice versa. Can you explain this for me?

I was wrong I confounded "Carnot cycle" with "Otto cycle". Indeed Carnot cycle is the 'perfect' thermodynamic cycle.
Otto cycle = 37%
Diesel cycle = 42%
(42-37)/37=13,5% difference. (I thought too fast)
I think the problem with diesel engine is that to have the best combustion possible and thus the best efficiency, the engine has to run slow. It's probably due to tha fact that fuel is injected in a very high pressure cyclinder which make it difficult to spread. That's why it burns in excess of air and produce NOx. The fact that it has to run slow make it very suitable for big engine (trucks) an for industrial applications.

[imported_MPower]

I cant think of one non-M Badged BMW that had an LSD optional or standard. I wouldnt expect BMW to change that trend with the 135i, unfortunately.

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by spinzero

How about a 1.9L diesel with 188HP?

http://dieselblog.net/2007/06/fiat-i...h-100-hpliter/

:biggrin:

No, not a 4 cyl diesel in a BMW sport coupé... Anyway, you will see when you ll drive it.

[SCA]

Originally Posted by MPower

I cant think of one non-M Badged BMW that had an LSD optional or standard. I wouldnt expect BMW to change that trend with the 135i, unfortunately.

The 1987-1990 E30 325is had LSD as standard equipment. I would suspect that the 1987-1988 E28 535is also had it as standard eq.

Edit: I do agree with MPower that is is highly doubtful that we will see LSD as an option on the 1-Series Coupe As he mentioned BMW AG is reserving that for M cars only.

[PierrePHRWEAUX]

Originally Posted by TheUltimateDriver

The 1987-1990 E30 325is had LSD as standard equipment. I would suspect that the 1987-1988 E28 535is also had it as standard eq.

It would be great if the 135i had one. And it actually seems consistent with what we have seen so far (Brembo brakes for ex).
But, the bad news is if all that is true (brakes, LSD...), I doubt there will be a M1.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by PierrePHRWEAUX

I was wrong I confounded "Carnot cycle" with "Otto cycle". Indeed Carnot cycle is the 'perfect' thermodynamic cycle.
Otto cycle = 37%
Diesel cycle = 42%
(42-37)/37=13,5% difference. (I thought too fast)
I think the problem with diesel engine is that to have the best combustion possible and thus the best efficiency, the engine has to run slow. It's probably due to tha fact that fuel is injected in a very high pressure cyclinder which make it difficult to spread. That's why it burns in excess of air and produce NOx. The fact that it has to run slow make it very suitable for big engine (trucks) an for industrial applications.

Ah, I see. Otto cycle makes more sense. Thanks Pierre.