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01-01-2009, 12:38 PM | #45 | |
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"The ECU "remembers" the multi-dimensional timing table it builds. So just to expand on that thought in a theoretical sense, taking out say 2 degrees via the CPS the first time you give the car gas the first time you install a piggyback, you are being proactive for that first 3 seconds. But from that point on its 100% "reactive" based on the knock sensors. Yes, the engine is ALWAYS checking for knock conditions and adjusting accordingly. No matter what CPS offset you have. The only way it can do this is by advancing the timing up to the point just before actual knock" I would suggest that if you are truly interested in gaining knowledge and sharing USEFUL information - why don't you debate your ideas over on E90post and N54tech - which is where the tuners of these products share their knowledge freely. It's very easy to be an armchair critic.....as far as I can tell there are a lot of people trying to help you with your questions and you just wave off their attempts with your arrogance. |
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01-02-2009, 11:54 AM | #46 | |
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You've been given the information you asked for, and now you're arguing that it's wrong. The reason for using aftermarket tuners is to raise the boost levels, and then correct timing and fuel curves accordingly. Exactly how the JB3 and other tuners get this done isn't really something I would expect them to be completely open about, considering there are companies out there that would like to reverse engineer the products and sell their own. The bottom line is, they DO increase the boost, and they DO correct the timing and fuel curves, and they DO adapt and make better power afterwards. There are all sorts of 3rd party dyno results that prove this. |
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01-02-2009, 02:41 PM | #47 |
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The only practical way to control timing is to offset the crank position sensor. The JB3 doesn't do that. BMS has indicated that the JB3 does retard timing at high boost but they have refused to identify how. The JB3 does not change the CPS signal in anyway. The only other way I know to retard the timing would be to scale the IAT but that would change fueling and other parameters. It is suspicious that BMS claims they retard timing yet do not provide data to support the claim or even a qualitative description of how the timing is controlled.
As far as whether you should retard timing when increasing (doubling) the boost, that isn't a question for anyone who knows anything about tuning. Relying on the factory knock sensor to keep you motor in one piece at double the factory boost is, well, you fill in the blank... |
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01-02-2009, 03:44 PM | #48 | |
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01-02-2009, 07:13 PM | #49 | |
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01-02-2009, 07:28 PM | #50 | |
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Beside, you can't expect Burger King to spell out how they make their fries. I read on the e90 of a poster (he was a system designer) trying to compare shiv's work vs terry's work. it was sad, because simplicity will always out do complexity. Anyway, buy one or the other, enjoy it. If it blows up, it needs to be replaced anyway. :drinking: |
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01-02-2009, 08:48 PM | #52 |
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01-02-2009, 11:52 PM | #53 | |
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The guy doing the testing is doing on road testing next and going to share independent OBDII logs of both tunes, I think those will be interesting to see! Although it seems like he works for Vishnu. |
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01-03-2009, 07:48 AM | #54 |
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I don't work for Vishnu and would never buy a PROcede. I hate the torque targeting crap. I just want control of boost, timing, and fueling. I'll make my own decisions regarding torque, etc. I do however agree with the need for timing retard with increased boost and was really surprised and disappointed to see that the JB3 doesn't offer that. I don't like the "we control timing, trust us" position that BMS has taken. I've had enough of that in the last 8 years...
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01-03-2009, 08:16 AM | #55 | |
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01-03-2009, 08:33 AM | #56 |
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The problem is they haven't shown anywhere that they do control timing. In the absence of any datalogs showing that they pull timing while doubling the boost, i'd at least like a reasonable explanation for how timing is pulled. If it's not CPS offset, then how are they doing it? Magic? I need more than that for my $45K car. I could also care less about dynos. There was fully built mazdaspeed3 that was the first to hit "400 whp." The car never ran right after, the turbo blew in a week and the dyno was a dynocom that routinely hit 30-40 whp higher than other local setups. I don't give a shit about the number, I want more performance from a tune I can trust and I'm not trusting it if I don't know that it works. I don't know that the JB3 can pull timing and nothing has shown me that it can.
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01-03-2009, 08:47 AM | #57 | |
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01-03-2009, 07:53 PM | #59 | |
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01-04-2009, 12:30 AM | #60 | |
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01-04-2009, 12:49 AM | #61 | |
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Wouldn't it be something if the JB3 OBDII timing logs were the same or higher than the V3 logs? |
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01-04-2009, 06:56 AM | #62 |
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Wow, this thread has turned into a huge pissing match. On the topic of the JB3 i just got my 135i the other day. Long story short my subaru transmission took a crap so i got a 135i. The JB3 appears to be one, if not the cheapest piggy back system on the market. Does anyone have any problems using the JB3 in their car or any negative side affects i should be aware of? For instance does using the JB3 or any tuning for that matter contribute to the high pressure fuel pump failing as ive seen a couple threads about the fuel pump failing. I had a COBB accessport (ecu re-flash) in my WRX and i loved it but i dont see the point in paying for a DINAN flash.
thank you for any input. PS is there a company out there that offers an OBDII data logger? My COBB accessport allowed me to data log, and send that information into a reflash company for a more specific tune. If so that could solve the dilema. |
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01-04-2009, 08:08 AM | #63 | |
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01-04-2009, 09:36 AM | #64 | |
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The timing logs certainly do mean something. The ECU is still controlling the spark. It doesn't matter if it's being lied to or not, the logs are still what's actually being used. For the logs to be incorrect, the piggyback would have to be firing the plugs itself, and it's not. |
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01-04-2009, 11:30 AM | #65 | |
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How were you increasing the timing? |
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01-04-2009, 01:02 PM | #66 | |
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The only negative I can think of is potentially voiding your warranty. As far as the data logging goes you might be able to hook up with Active Autowerks and get their Active Processor and create custom tunes. Not sure though you would have to go directly to them. Hopefully this helps.
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