Comparison: BMW 135i vs Subaru WRX STI

[ducati]

The problem with the 335 as it comes in the US is brake fade, not braking power. At the very least, replacing pads on the 335 is mandatory before venturing to the track. You don't have to do that with the STI. Perhaps the arrival of the six piston fronts won't require this, we just don't know yet.

Another bugger for the 335 is heat. I'm sure you've read some of the oil temps experienced by those that have tracked their 335's, and perhaps even entered limp mode. Not good.

And of course everyone knows you have to junk the runflats, as you point out.

I'm not sure which model is referenced in the time above, but the USDM STI's are essentially the JDM Spec C's (save the more powerful EJ257 2.5L in the USDM STI), and the old Spec-C did very well:

• 7:59 - Subaru Impreza Sti Spec-C (Prototype), 280 PS/1370 kg (Subaru News 2004 [1])
• 8:01 - Bugatti EB 110 Supersport, 610 PS/1410 kg [citation needed]
• 8:01 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, 280 PS/37.5 kgf·m/1540 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series [The R33 GT-R])
• 8:02 - Mercedes CLK 63 AMG - Black Series, 507 PS/ 1790 kg (autobild 07/07)
• 8:03 - Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005), 380 bhp/1570 kg (sport auto 10/05)
• 8:03 - Porsche 911 GT3, 360 PS/1391 kg (sport auto 08/99)
• 8:03 - Honda NSX-R (NA1), 280 PS/30 kgf·m/1230 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best MOTORing 02/06)
• 8:06 - Subaru WRX STi Spec-C prototype, 280 PS/42 kgf·m/1370 kg, Motoharu Kurosawa (Best Motoring International video "NISMO Beast Unleashed")

The STIs are updated every year, and keep getting faster. Wish we had the RA-R

But lap times weren't my point. Where lap times are recorded the 135 will do quite well, especially on open tracks where the lack of LSD isn't such an issue. My point behind "track ready" is that you can take your STI from the showroom floor straight to a track and do a weekend HPDE. You don't need new tires or brake pads. You don't have to worry about underhood temps.

That was the only point I meant by track ready.

I could honestly care less about lap times, other than the fact they can tell me that a car is well-sorted or not. I have run HPDE's on road courses, but being a HPDE I'm not concerned with ultimate lap times, I'm much more concerned with how comfortable I feel piloting the vehicle. Really, "feel" is much more important than speed to me. Especially on the street.

And honestly, if all I cared about was lap times, I'd actually have an EVO. Won't put my family in that the IX, though. Maybe the X.

[atr_hugo]

Originally Posted by ducati

I could honestly care less about lap times, other than the fact they can tell me that a car is well-sorted or not. I have run HPDE's on road courses, but being a HPDE I'm not concerned with ultimate lap times, I'm much more concerned with how comfortable I feel piloting the vehicle. Really, "feel" is much more important than speed to me. Especially on the street.

What he said!!

Feel is what I want - it has to feel better than the sum of its parts (the well-sorted out bit).

I am looking for a GT car, that means Grand Touring. Some of these posters are looking for BIW (Body In White) race cars. If they really want a race car, why are they looking at a sporting/luxurious BMW then? ; -)

[335i=:)]

I don't know what the differences are between the sti's listed. But with a 20 second differential, it's gotta be a bit of everything.

I agree that to be as track ready as a STI/EVO, a 135i will most likely need pads, non-runflats. It would probably take a LSD as well to get you on par in the "feel" department.

I just find it amazing that you can get so much more car and be right in the STI/EVO track ready territory for close to the same price.

Also, the N54 is very underrated. My 335i dynoed @283 whp AND 287 wTQ stock on a mustang dyno. Even if you figure a minimal 15% drivetrain loss your at 325bhp/330btq. Oh and this dyno was done at Cobb tuning's facility(you've probably heard of them ). I think the extra horses make up for a bit of the difference. This dyno was at 4200 ft elevation.

FYI, for anyone who's followed the heat soak issue, it was because the early 335i models (including mine, built november 06') we're without oil cooler's. Since march 07 all 335i's are now receiveing these OCs and any built prior are receiving free retrofit's (including mine).

Before the oil cooler, under heavy driving (with my friends evo's and other friends nissan skyline gt-t) in the canyons I would hover around 280 degrees oil temp, since the retrofit, I don't get over 260, limp mode isn't induced until 300 BTW.

Also, the AT's create significantly more heat then the MT's. Even before the oil cooler retrofits, the MT's we're seeing much cooler temps then the AT's. Which is the logical choice for track stars. I have AT.

[ducati]

I think I've heard of Cobb before.

Glad to hear that the temp issue is coming under control. The N54 is certainly a good powerplant, and the 135 will be a wickedly fast car, for sure. Let's just hope BMW gives us the goodies with this one.

I definitely think if BMW prices this thing at the $35k price point the EVOs and STIs will look less attractive to many due to the extra amenties the BMW will bring to the table. I would love to see that.

*That STI Spec-C is the JDM STI. Our USDM STIs are essentially the SPEC C. There are many versions of STIs all around the world; Japan gets the absolute fastest (Spec C RA-R) and we get the next fastest (which is essentially the standard JDM SPEC C with the EJ257 2.5L in place of the 2.0, and with airbags and normal windscreen glass). I would also add that "so much more car" depends upon the driver's perspecitve. We're all looking for different things.

[ducati]

It isn't pretty, that's for sure! (WRC concept from Frankfurt)

[335i=:)]

When I was at cobb tuning, they had a project suby. Can't remember which one, but it was a two door, they said it was the lightest stock suby they could find. Then they put in the 3.6 liter (?) v6 and proceeded to turbo it, pushing around 550whp. They took everything out of the inside with a goal of getting it down to 2600 lbs. They basically did everything you could think of, what a little beast. They said it was for some race in japan. They wanted to set the lap record. It looked evil.

Suby's are cool. I couldn't daily drive one. I'm too lazy for all that work these days.

[Chibana]

That WRC concept may not be "pretty," but it sure looks wicked! It looks a heck of a lot better than the milk and cookies 2008 WRX hatchback.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by 335ito135i

When I was at cobb tuning, they had a project suby. Can't remember which one, but it was a two door, they said it was the lightest stock suby they could find. Then they put in the 3.6 liter (?) v6 and proceeded to turbo it, pushing around 550whp. They took everything out of the inside with a goal of getting it down to 2600 lbs. They basically did everything you could think of, what a little beast. They said it was for some race in japan. They wanted to set the lap record. It looked evil.

Suby's are cool. I couldn't daily drive one. I'm too lazy for all that work these days.

Neat. I liked their Time Attack STi, too. I'd love to pay a visit to Cobb someday. They do good work.

T-1 until the 135 is unwrapped. We should see some first drives quite soon, as I believe they are in the hands of journos this week.

"All that work" is indeed a decent way of putting it. Driving the STi isn't hard, per se, but it is visceral and certainly not relaxing.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ducati

The problem with the 335 as it comes in the US is brake fade, not braking power. At the very least, replacing pads on the 335 is mandatory before venturing to the track.

It's not really mandatory - it depends on the track is my guess. I've done the Nurburgring during my ED, which is very fast and flowing (only used 3rd, 4th and briefly 5th). Brakes were fine on each lap.

Another bugger for the 335 is heat. I'm sure you've read some of the oil temps experienced by those that have tracked their 335's, and perhaps even entered limp mode. Not good.

This is truly the big bugaboo - oil temps.

During the Ring laps, the oil temp stayed at 260.

I'll try to do a short track in my 335 in October (Summit Point Jefferson Circuit) to see how the brakes and oil temps are hanging. I also have a small power increase via the Juice Box S1 (boost controller) which if anything should heat up the oil a little more.

My car has the Sport Package with 6sp, thus the oil cooler. Somebody has pointed out that I could alternatively switch to the "Motorsport formulation" 10W60, which is what BMW uses in the latest M cars, and which apparently can lower oil temps by an easy 10-20 degrees.

I don't view changing pads and/or fluids as major surgery. If I ended up with a 135i and it were needed, I could easily install a larger oil cooler to take care of track oil temp spikes - and even then I would not balk at upgrading these minor things.

But I do take your point about the STI being more track-ready. Doesn't this come with a higher maintenace cost though? On the Evo, it does (5k mi tires, 5k mi oil, 10k mi service etc.).

And of course everyone knows you have to junk the runflats, as you point out.

Keep them on the street wheels until they run out, then replace with something better. For track duty, I would never again use street tires - they go to crap in one session, become noisy for street use after, and their lifespan is easily reduced by 30%. I think it's actually cheaper to run track wheels/tires separately.

And honestly, if all I cared about was lap times, I'd actually have an EVO. Won't put my family in that the IX, though. Maybe the X.

Care to elaborate, please? :smile: I've driven an Evo VIII and IX MR and liked the MR a lot. I found the interior to be a little bigger than the STI - is there any particular reason why you would not put your family in one?

[MrRoboto]

Cant wait till the Stigg gets a hold of the 135i.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by adc

Care to elaborate, please? :smile: I've driven an Evo VIII and IX MR and liked the MR a lot. I found the interior to be a little bigger than the STI - is there any particular reason why you would not put your family in one?

Yup. Poor crash ratings and no side airbags. The Subie, on the other hand, is a Top Safety Pick.

[coolbluelb]

As a Legacy owner, I have to say the interior quality has much improved for Subaru in the past 3-4 years. I have seen the sedan 08 WRX in person and feel it is a sharp looking car and definately more put together than past efforts.

I am disappointed that the STi is rumored to only be made available in a hatch. I just like sedans I guess.

I am conversely very interested in seeing what comes out for 09 as it is rumored Subaru will bring a DI engine to market. This combination with the STi powerplant will be dramatic to say the least.

[OniKoroshi]

The new STI is a wagon only which I actually like. I wish we were getting the 5 door 135 too, I would buy that over the coupe in an instant. I'm still young but eventually plan on having a family and would to be able to get a baby seat in there easily.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by adc

It's not really mandatory - it depends on the track is my guess. I've done the Nurburgring during my ED, which is very fast and flowing (only used 3rd, 4th and briefly 5th). Brakes were fine on each lap.

As you said the the Nurburgring is more fast and flowing than US circuits; shorter, more technical tracks will bring out the fade. No big deal, really, to replace pads (and maybe fluid), as you said.

Originally Posted by adc

I don't view changing pads and/or fluids as major surgery. If I ended up with a 135i and it were needed, I could easily install a larger oil cooler to take care of track oil temp spikes - and even then I would not balk at upgrading these minor things.

I agree--this is not a huge deal. My point was only that you don't have to do this with the STI. BMW should take care of these things for us, IMO, their cars are SO good they deserve it.

Originally Posted by adc

But I do take your point about the STI being more track-ready. Doesn't this come with a higher maintenace cost though? On the Evo, it does (5k mi tires, 5k mi oil, 10k mi service etc.).

STI RE070 tires seem to last about 12-25k, depending upon who you ask. I usually shag a set of summers in one season, so take that for what its worth. Oil changes are every 7500 as recommended, but I will do 3750. You should be doing interim oil changes in your 335, IMO, BMW interval is WAY to long for a tracked 335. Maintenance is far cheaper on the Scooby than BMW--you're prepaying with BMW, which is nice, but the Scooby is cheap so no biggie.

Originally Posted by adc

Keep them on the street wheels until they run out, then replace with something better. For track duty, I would never again use street tires - they go to crap in one session, become noisy for street use after, and their lifespan is easily reduced by 30%. I think it's actually cheaper to run track wheels/tires separately.

I usually agree. 3 sets of tires are usually what I run: summer, winter, race. But the STI's RE070's are even competitive at the track, and certainly good enough for local autox or HPDE's. Again, 3 sets are ideal, but you can drive the STI off the showroom floor, on to a track, and the RE070's won't blink.

Originally Posted by adc

Care to elaborate, please? :smile: I've driven an Evo VIII and IX MR and liked the MR a lot. I found the interior to be a little bigger than the STI - is there any particular reason why you would not put your family in one?

What he said above: the side crash test ratings are DEPLORABLE. The Subaru's a Best Pick. This is important to me for a street-driven car.

The 1er's EURO NCAP results look pretty good, I'd be comfortable with that.

One thing I will say about the STI: the brake dust is as bad as BMW. Sucks. :tongue:

[krassanova]

I think Ducati nailed the differences in his original post, and has already made some excellent technical points in his answers to all of the questions that have been asked.

I think that the Sti competes with the 135 for a small segment of potential 1er buyers. The Sti is designed primarily for performance, and the 135 is designed for a much bigger market. Why would BMW make a trackable car when the majority of the buyers have no intention of pushing their car to its limits?? Let's face it, if you ask the the majority of 135 buyers f they have an LSD, they'd probably think you were propositioning them for drugs.

The AWD is a big difference between the two cars, and this fact alone might make the 1er impractical to many potential buyers that live in snow country that want a car they can love to drive all year long.

I mostly love the 1er styling (except for the rear), and I actually like the pix I've seen of the 2008 Sti, but I'd like to see many more pix to be sure.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that these two cars really do compete for the same buyers, even if some Subie drivers would never consider the Sti, and vice versa...I hope that makes sense.

[IrvRobinson2]

Originally Posted by ducati

No one really knows what the 2008 STI will be. There is some possibility of "softening" of the WRX degrading the raw brutality of the STI.

We also, of course, have no idea what the 135 will be like in the real world--IMO it all rides on the suspenders and the effectiveness of the DSC+ "e diff." The rest we get in the 335.

That said, I can compare the 2007 STI to the 2007 BMW 335i.

STI Advantages:
1. AWD system with 3 LSD's and an electronically controlled center diff (yes it has 4 diffs) has more grip than any RWD car will. This tremendous grip can be put to use on the varying road surfaces of the street, making it very, very quick in the real world.
2. Suspension is very well-sorted for the road. It's stiff, but surprisingly comfortable.
3. Handling is quite neutral IF you drive it as an AWD car needs to be driven (which is to say, differently than a RWD car).
4. Brakes are VERY good, and track ready out of the box
5. Tires are very sticky, track ready out of the box but still very useable on the road.
6. Car has a very raw and purposeful feel to it, which makes it quite engaging to drive
7. Engaging power delivery. You have to chase it a bit, as it doesn't come on hard until the midrange. But it hits hard and hangs on. It feels very quick, and it's fun to hammer.
8. Flat-four motor sounds great, if you like the uneven backbeat of boxers.

STI Disadvantages:
1. Exterior design and "JDM tuned" look. You either like this or you don't, but suffice to say it does attract attention of both the wanted and unwanted variety. Not as much attention as my old Phoenix Yellow Type R Honda, but enough.
2. Interior design is very 90s Japanese. If you liked late-90's Hondas, this will make you feel at home.
3. Interior materials quality is durable but not touchy-feely. BMW does much better here.
4. Interior is mixmatch. Neat red electroluminescent gauge package with green center stack lighting. No lighting on all 4 window switches. Nice seats with crap headliner and cheesy visors.
5. Car is loud. Gearbox whine, diff whine, road noise, tire noise. For some this would be a serious negative.

335i Positives:
1. Spools much faster than the STI, power is all there just off idle.
2. RWD is seriously fun if you deactivate DSC. Tail-out cornering is easy to access.
3. The car requires more finesse than the STI. RWD with big power is like a dance--easy inputs here and there to maintain traction, while you rotate around like a ballet dancer. Drive it heavy-handed and you won't make much forward progress. STI will allow more heavy-handed shenanigans.
4. Steering is more linear and predictable--the STI with its DCCD in Auto can change midcorner, sometimes multiple times (manually setting DCCD changes this behavior, though)
5. Exterior, if you like BMWs, is great until you get to the rear. Even with the Pontiac rear, I don't think anyone will say the STI looks better
6. Interior shows much thought; from the soft orange/red overhead lighting, to the backlit switches, to the design. It's nice to be in. Some find it not as nice as VAG products, but I liked it.
7. Yes, I squeeze dashboards, and yes, BMWs is much nicer to squeeze.
8. 335 is MUCH quieter than the STI--you can enjoy that nice Logic 7 in serene surroundings.


335i Negatives:
1. Power delivery in one fat smooth push, seriously quick but not as much fun to access.
2. Accessing tail-out mode can be hairy without LSD. The car isn't always predictable, and this makes you dial back a bit more than you could on the street. 328i is more accessible, as it doesn't overwhelm the rears so much.
3. Brakes are not as powerful as the STI. Supposedly easy to fade on the track, unlike STI.
4. Car is too quiet. Not much engine or exhaust sound. Is this a performance car, or a luxury car? Where's the bark? N54 sounds a bit agricultural here, I think a noise booster or better intake/exhaust tuning by BMW would help.
5. The drive isn't as engaging as the STI. There is a lot to remove the raw road feel and experience that many enthusiasts find so addicitive; from sound deadening, to softer suspension, to more isolating and flexy bushings. Make no mistake: the 335 will haul. But it isn't constantly asking you, BEGGING you, to haul. It's a little.. Dare I say... Yes I will... Boring.

In short?
STI: Brutal, engaging, loud, full of character, all about the drive.
335: Stylish, comfortable, balancing sport with luxury.

Hopefully, IMO, the 135i will rectify the disadvantages, although I've hedged my bet with the STI. If the 135 shows up with a killer suspension (I mean SERIOUS not the 335 "sport package" stuff), killer brakes, and please dear God in Munich Above give us a LSD at some point... I'll buy it. The STI is ugly and has a craptastic interior. It's all about character and brutal speed. I'll take the more balanced BMW if we get a more focused version, more like the STI than the 335 (way more...).

ducati, now that's a review

I should use this on my blog, if you would let me.

[ducati]

krassanova, makes good sense.

Sure, Irv, feel free to quote my ramblings. Glad you liked my little review. I'm coming to Chicago for a Bears game in a few weeks, if I end up driving I'll stop by with the STI.

[IrvRobinson2]

Originally Posted by ducati

krassanova, makes good sense.

Sure, Irv, feel free to quote my ramblings. Glad you liked my little review. I'm coming to Chicago for a Bears game in a few weeks, if I end up driving I'll stop by with the STI.

sounds good.

and Go Bears!!!

[Madjack]

Originally Posted by damian

Indeed. The STi is almost impossible to drive "smoothly." Even when rev matching, a typical downshift would result in a "is something wrong with your transmission?" from passengers. Until I actually let them drive it to see for themselves, they wouldn't believe it wasn't transmission or driver error.

I had an '04 STi and I never had a problem driving it smooth. Sounds like you need some more practice with rev matching and shifting (not trying to flame, just an observation).

The STi, especially the '04, was a raw race car for the street. Mine did not even have a radio in it for 3 months. It was loud and rode rough. It was fast though and that made up for it.

As far as kicking the tail out, you can do it on an AWD too. You just better be prepared for it, it behaves a little different than a RWD.

[damian]

Originally Posted by Madjack

I had an '04 STi and I never had a problem driving it smooth. Sounds like you need some more practice with rev matching and shifting (not trying to flame, just an observation).

Nope. Before that I had a WRX. I know how to drive. I'm guessing we just have a different definition/threshold for what is "smooth." We're talking about a comparison to non sports cars like my current daily driver, which is a Lexus.

Regardless, i think the STi is looking better in these pics:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=274

[adc]

Originally Posted by krassanova

Why would BMW make a trackable car when the majority of the buyers have no intention of pushing their car to its limits?? Let's face it, if you ask the the majority of 135 buyers f they have an LSD, they'd probably think you were propositioning them for drugs.

Agreed.

I think this applies to the STI as well: only a minority of them see track duty. Most owners seem to be overly concerned with extracting another 100BHP out of them for the so important street meets. :smile:

I think the 135i will be the most tracked BMW of the entire generation. Used to be the E36 M3, because they were relatively affordable even when new, and downright cheap used - I'm getting the vibe that many of these people can't wait to switch to the 135i.

If - big if - it will deliver.

[damian]

Yeah, I'm guessing a lot of people that go into a BMW showroom and find they can't afford a 3 series will be drawn to the 1's.