Has anyone got a powerful sound system?!

[kaigoss69]

I believe there is no basis for any further discussion here, the OP's goals (and spelling abilities) are pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum from where most of ours are...

[gnat]

Originally Posted by Nitroxide

I never understood people who would spend all this money upgrading their alternator, batteries, amps,

It isn't about power (well, not to the audiophiles anyway).

Upgrading your amps/speakers/HU can give you a much better sound quality and range of sound. Those of us that spend a lot of time in our cars and appreciate good sound enjoy this and justify the costs accordingly.

When doing such upgrades, you sometimes need to upgrade your electrical system to handle it. In my Escape Ford left me a whole 8AMP to play with over the factory peak. My normal load with my current system only leaves me between 1-2AMP if I was still using my factory alternator and peaks would drive it into the -10 to -15AMP range. It was much worse when I swapped my HU out for a computer and added a 3rd Amp (rear speakers).

If you total up all the tweaks I've done to it over the years, I've probably spent about $5k on my system. It's probably 7-8k when your throw in the cost of the alternator replacements, but that is mostly because it is $900 for labor because of Ford's piss poor design decisions. I'm fine with that number because I enjoy the results and have yet to be in another car (even with upgraded systems) that sound as good to me.

And it has zero to do with how loud I can make it.

[texasmojo]

Originally Posted by Nitroxide

Because it doesn't sound like you want good sound, you want it powerful. I never understood people who would spend all this money upgrading their alternator, batteries, amps, custom fabrication etc just to be able to turn their bass up to 11 and shake the block. I have a great sound system in my 135i and it's not obtrusive and to the people riding in the car it sounds great.

Same reason why people want to make their cars go faster.

[singh21]

Originally Posted by gnat

It isn't about power (well, not to the audiophiles anyway).

Upgrading your amps/speakers/HU can give you a much better sound quality and range of sound. Those of us that spend a lot of time in our cars and appreciate good sound enjoy this and justify the costs accordingly.

When doing such upgrades, you sometimes need to upgrade your electrical system to handle it. In my Escape Ford left me a whole 8AMP to play with over the factory peak. My normal load with my current system only leaves me between 1-2AMP if I was still using my factory alternator and peaks would drive it into the -10 to -15AMP range. It was much worse when I swapped my HU out for a computer and added a 3rd Amp (rear speakers).

If you total up all the tweaks I've done to it over the years, I've probably spent about $5k on my system. It's probably 7-8k when your throw in the cost of the alternator replacements, but that is mostly because it is $900 for labor because of Ford's piss poor design decisions. I'm fine with that number because I enjoy the results and have yet to be in another car (even with upgraded systems) that sound as good to me.

And it has zero to do with how loud I can make it.

I agree. its important to enjoy being in your car when you spend so much time in it

[Nitroxide]

Originally Posted by gnat

It isn't about power (well, not to the audiophiles anyway).

Upgrading your amps/speakers/HU can give you a much better sound quality and range of sound. Those of us that spend a lot of time in our cars and appreciate good sound enjoy this and justify the costs accordingly.

When doing such upgrades, you sometimes need to upgrade your electrical system to handle it. In my Escape Ford left me a whole 8AMP to play with over the factory peak. My normal load with my current system only leaves me between 1-2AMP if I was still using my factory alternator and peaks would drive it into the -10 to -15AMP range. It was much worse when I swapped my HU out for a computer and added a 3rd Amp (rear speakers).

If you total up all the tweaks I've done to it over the years, I've probably spent about $5k on my system. It's probably 7-8k when your throw in the cost of the alternator replacements, but that is mostly because it is $900 for labor because of Ford's piss poor design decisions. I'm fine with that number because I enjoy the results and have yet to be in another car (even with upgraded systems) that sound as good to me.

And it has zero to do with how loud I can make it.

When you're installing a 4000watt amp in a 135i that is WAY overkill for good sound.

[gnat]

Originally Posted by Nitroxide

When you're installing a 4000watt amp in a 135i that is WAY overkill for good sound.

I don't disagree with that assessment (I think all 3 of my amps put together are only 1000watt). I wasn't commenting on his choice of system, I was responding to you not understanding why people like me go to the extent we do and believing it was all about power and being obnoxious.

My only point is that going to the extent of upgrading your electrical system is not only done for the purpose of vibrating dishes in a half mile radius around your car.

As far as people with overly loud systems, I think we see eye to eye in our opinion of that

And yes my system can be turned up to be painfully loud, but that's not why I bought it or how I use it.

[singh21]

the reason i have this sound system which is very powerful is because of the price it was bought for...

a very good price for very good equipment.....why would i not put it in?? purpose of this threat wos to get advice on the powering of it not the opinion of the system

and its not a 135. i wudnt add the weight into that :s

[VP Electricity]

Yeah, free help often looks different than we expect.

That's why it's called a "forum" - i.e., "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion".

Doesn't matter what you paid for it (on the other hand, it doesn't matter how good your spelling is, or whether or not your goals are the same as mine or anyone else's, for that matter). Either it's a good idea, or it's a bad idea.

You are asking about installing gear into your car that pulls significantly more current than your car can deliver. You're going to have the motivation for that questioned.

Your first post, you said "I'm not made of money". In that context, you pretty much have to be made of money to get a 1-series alternator to support five kilowatts, regardless of what battery you get.

If you want to use 5kW in your car, you are talking about the kind of project where you learn things no one else knows, because I can almost guarantee that no one has made a 1-series support amps developing a true 5kW RMS of power. I'm sure you can do it and it's as worthy a goal as anything else, I guess, as long as you're not waking people up in the middle of the night with it and being an ass - but you're gonna have to figure it out to some degree. Could be a worthy build thread...

[gnat]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

If you want to use 5kW in your car

Christ! The number didn't really sink in until you said it like that.

For grins I went an looked up the Amp he mentioned (I'm guessing it's the HCCA D5000) and did the "low" math at 12v (2500w/12v). The thing would require 208AMP to hit it's peak at 1OHM! It "only" needs 83AMP at 4OHM, but that still wouldn't be possible from the stock alternator. More likely than not I'd bet on a full peak hit at either of those levels frying the stator on the spot...

Damn. Even my 250AMP* alternator wouldn't handle that full 1OHM hit with anything else drawing power at the same time...

* Overkill for my needs, but the 200AMP was $50 over the 150AMP version and he didn't have any 200AMP stators when he built mine so I got a free upgrade.

[3onDubs]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

Yeah, free help often looks different than we expect.

That's why it's called a "forum" - i.e., "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion".

Doesn't matter what you paid for it (on the other hand, it doesn't matter how good your spelling is, or whether or not your goals are the same as mine or anyone else's, for that matter). Either it's a good idea, or it's a bad idea.

You are asking about installing gear into your car that pulls significantly more current than your car can deliver. You're going to have the motivation for that questioned.

Your first post, you said "I'm not made of money". In that context, you pretty much have to be made of money to get a 1-series alternator to support five kilowatts, regardless of what battery you get.

If you want to use 5kW in your car, you are talking about the kind of project where you learn things no one else knows, because I can almost guarantee that no one has made a 1-series support amps developing a true 5kW RMS of power. I'm sure you can do it and it's as worthy a goal as anything else, I guess, as long as you're not waking people up in the middle of the night with it and being an ass - but you're gonna have to figure it out to some degree. Could be a worthy build thread...

don't forget the cost for replacing the windows once they blow out

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by 3onDubs

don't forget the cost for replacing the windows once they blow out

The cost of replacement windows pales in comparison to the cost of replacing his ears.
Seriously, if you genuinely love music, listening to 5000w will damage your hearing.
You Wont notice it now, and you'll think I'm an old fart.
But before you know it, your ability to listen to higher frequencies will diminish.
And you'll have ringing in your ears.
Trust me, from one music lover to another, don't do it
Start with a modest setup (say a JL Audio XD600/6), and see how you like it. And take it from there.

[VP Electricity]

What would be epic would be 5kW on the sub and leaving the base Stereo 15W deck power on the 4" door speakers.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

What would be epic would be 5kW on the sub and leaving the base Stereo 15W deck power on the 4" door speakers.

I think that might be a little bass heavy

[silvatyrant]

Originally Posted by singh21

the reason i have this sound system which is very powerful is because of the price it was bought for...

a very good price for very good equipment.....why would i not put it in?? purpose of this threat wos to get advice on the powering of it not the opinion of the system

and its not a 135. i wudnt add the weight into that :s

Dude...Here's a solution to your problem:

1) Sell your overly powerful equipment ('cause you got it for a "steal" you'll probably make a profit).
2) Buy something with less ear-raping potential (and save your alternator in the process).
3) Install and be merry!!

[JimD]

When your lights dim, it is the voltage going lower. When your alternator is charging the battery, the voltage in your car's electrical system is 14V or more. When it dips below 13.2V, then you are drawing from the battery. If you notice the lights dimming, you are probably below 12V and into serious draw from the battery.

Capacitors store electricity. I don't know how effective they are for car audio but storing electricity is their purpose. Music is normally played at fairly low RMS with peaks to significantly higher values. If you could cover the peaks with a capacitor (if) then you could get by with a lower current supply.

High powered systems do two things. From a quality of sound standpoint, they can eliminate the distortion created by clipping the signal. When you hear the car next to you with your top up and the windows up, however, it is a pretty good indication the driver of the car is not interested in a great clean signal. They are trying to impress everybody with how loud their system is. But there is a purpose to higher power that does not involve annoying your fellow drivers.

It takes twice as much power to play 3db louder. 3db is not a large change in sound level. 3db to go from 77db to 80db might be a change from 2W to 4W. But if your steady state or RMS signal is 80db and 4W (I am making the numbers up just to illustrate a point), you will have peaks at least 6dB louder requireing 16W. 80db is not terribly loud. Definitely below the level of hearing damage. If your speakers are less efficient and 80db = 6W, you will challenge the base and probably mid level BMW system to avoid clipping. I'd love to know what dB=what watts in a BMW but that would take a little work to find out and it hasn't been my highest priority so far. I think my mid level system sounds pretty good.

It is pretty typical for speakers to be rated to supply 80-95dB from 1W. If BMW systems can do this, then you are into hearing damage levels of sound before you will start clipping from lack of power from the stock system.

Jim

[singh21]

Originally Posted by JimD

When your lights dim, it is the voltage going lower. When your alternator is charging the battery, the voltage in your car's electrical system is 14V or more. When it dips below 13.2V, then you are drawing from the battery. If you notice the lights dimming, you are probably below 12V and into serious draw from the battery.

Capacitors store electricity. I don't know how effective they are for car audio but storing electricity is their purpose. Music is normally played at fairly low RMS with peaks to significantly higher values. If you could cover the peaks with a capacitor (if) then you could get by with a lower current supply.

High powered systems do two things. From a quality of sound standpoint, they can eliminate the distortion created by clipping the signal. When you hear the car next to you with your top up and the windows up, however, it is a pretty good indication the driver of the car is not interested in a great clean signal. They are trying to impress everybody with how loud their system is. But there is a purpose to higher power that does not involve annoying your fellow drivers.

It takes twice as much power to play 3db louder. 3db is not a large change in sound level. 3db to go from 77db to 80db might be a change from 2W to 4W. But if your steady state or RMS signal is 80db and 4W (I am making the numbers up just to illustrate a point), you will have peaks at least 6dB louder requireing 16W. 80db is not terribly loud. Definitely below the level of hearing damage. If your speakers are less efficient and 80db = 6W, you will challenge the base and probably mid level BMW system to avoid clipping. I'd love to know what dB=what watts in a BMW but that would take a little work to find out and it hasn't been my highest priority so far. I think my mid level system sounds pretty good.

It is pretty typical for speakers to be rated to supply 80-95dB from 1W. If BMW systems can do this, then you are into hearing damage levels of sound before you will start clipping from lack of power from the stock system.

Jim

Thanks Jim

[gnat]

Originally Posted by JimD

I don't know how effective they are for car audio but storing electricity is their purpose.

They work exactly as you describe, the problem is that they don't fix anything. At best they just hide it and at worst they just shift it.

As you described, when the lights dim it means you are drawing from the battery rather than just from the Alt. How much they dim gives you a general idea of how bad the draw is.

The problem with a Cap is that it too has to be charged and when it is being charged, it is drawing additional power from the Alternator (thus reducing the amount going to recharge your battery) or worse from the battery.

If you had a system configured so that your normal state left a few percent of head room from what the Alt could produce and you had infrequent peaks that went over that, a Cap would smooth it out and you wouldn't (in the short term) see any issues.

In a system that is at the limit of your Alternator's potential (or over it) the Cap will just compound the problem and what you would experience is your lights dimming after the peaks rather than during (with a big enough Cap you could probably get a few peaks, but it will be a stronger/longer pull for the recharge).

The thing that the Cap absolutely will not do in any case is protect your Alternator from running at peak capacity. Running at peak consistently will cause the stator to fail. Typically the failure results in diminished capacity which of course will compound the problems.

Caps have a purpose and they are good at it. The problem is that most them get sold to "fix" a poorly designed system and that is not what they are meant to do. They are not the miracle cure that they are pitched as, just a band-aid.

[gnat]

Originally Posted by silvatyrant

1) Sell your overly powerful equipment ('cause you got it for a "steal" you'll probably make a profit).

I've been wondering if he didn't get it for a "steal" because the previous owner went through all this already and realized that trying to use a comp grade amp for every day use is far more trouble than "having the biggest bass" is worth.

It's the same as anything else. If you try to use the wrong tools for the job, it will take more effort and not turn out as well in the end.

[singh21]

Originally Posted by gnat

I've been wondering if he didn't get it for a "steal" because the previous owner went through all this already and realized that trying to use a comp grade amp for every day use is far more trouble than "having the biggest bass" is worth.

It's the same as anything else. If you try to use the wrong tools for the job, it will take more effort and not turn out as well in the end.

ok what ill do is fit it all in...see if it sounds like shit. And if it does ill take it out and figure something else out i guess...

[gnat]

Originally Posted by singh21

ok what ill do is fit it all in...see if it sounds like shit. And if it does ill take it out and figure something else out i guess...

Don't feel bad if it doesn't work out, it's a learning experience. Under the (hopefully friendly) jabs at your expense, a lot of good information has been provided here for you.

I was lucky when I initially did my system that I found a good shop that took the time to explain how everything worked and how to develop a well balanced system which helped take the stars out of my eyes about all the bells and whistles car audio MFGs try to promote. The end result was that my initial system was about half the price of what other shops were quoting me, I have been exceedingly happy with it, and they've far made up the difference in what I saved with the tweaks I've done and the other car we had done. I can now do the work myself and usually find slightly better deals on hardware, but I still go to them because they took that initial time with me.

If you take the time to listen and read his posts, Ken (VP Electricity) is the same type of person and probably the most knowledgeable about the current BMW systems and how you can upgrade them.

[singh21]

Originally Posted by gnat

Don't feel bad if it doesn't work out, it's a learning experience. Under the (hopefully friendly) jabs at your expense, a lot of good information has been provided here for you.

I was lucky when I initially did my system that I found a good shop that took the time to explain how everything worked and how to develop a well balanced system which helped take the stars out of my eyes about all the bells and whistles car audio MFGs try to promote. The end result was that my initial system was about half the price of what other shops were quoting me, I have been exceedingly happy with it, and they've far made up the difference in what I saved with the tweaks I've done and the other car we had done. I can now do the work myself and usually find slightly better deals on hardware, but I still go to them because they took that initial time with me.

If you take the time to listen and read his posts, Ken (VP Electricity) is the same type of person and probably the most knowledgeable about the current BMW systems and how you can upgrade them.

yeah..iv got some good people looking at the car and the system and they have a lot af experience. they have installed systems into 1 series hatchbacks and they have said it will be slightly different..

BUT i shall see what it is like and at least someone will have the experience of putting a systam like this into a 1er coupe.

[singh21]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

What would be epic would be 5kW on the sub and leaving the base Stereo 15W deck power on the 4" door speakers.

Amp is only 2500rms and will only be pushin 2000w with the sub. Chill the fuck out VP. Pretty patronising for someone advertising their company on here. Is this how you company acts with people enquiring? And the title of this tread is not ENGLISH LESSON. son of a...