Why all the criticism about the 135i's handling?

[PC Valkyrie]

I really don't understand all the criticism (especially from some members on this forum) about the 135i's "handling". Objective testing from many car magazines (like R&T, C&D, MT, etc) consistently show skidpad grip to be around 0.9g's, and very decent slalom speeds too, even with the stock runflat tires. So even though there is some body roll, the actual grip limits are very high (especially for a cars in its price range).

The complaints of understeer also sound exaggerated to me, especially from people who drive their 135i on the streets only. Are people constantly cornering beyond the car's grip when they go on or off curvy highway on-ramps??? I find that it's quite hard (and a dangerous) to push the 135i beyond it's cornering limits on everyday streets/highways.

I bought the 135i as a fun street car and part time track car, and I actually think it performs very well on the track in stock form, where I can actually safely and legally drive this car FAST. Even with the stock runflat tires last year, I found it to be very competitive with many other "sports cars" during lapping days. I'm no pro driver and neither are most poeple who track their cars on lapping days, but the 135i is consistently among the faster street cars in my experience. This year, I've upgraded to light weight rims and stickier high performance street tires and I can already feel a subjective improvement compared to last year. My point is that for an average non-pro driver like me who has reasonable tracking experience, the 135i with stock suspension is already very capable in the handling department on the track.

Perhaps the body roll decreases some people's confidence in driving the car fast, but once you know and get used to the car, the cornering speeds can be quite high. Maybe people's complaints about the 135i's handling have more to do with their drivng technique as opposed to the car itself. People who attend lapping track days know that the biggest factor in determing how fast you can take a corner is likely the skill/experience of the driver. When looking at the car, the biggest impact on cornering grip is the choice of tires (like R-compounds or not).

Am I missing something???

[ptack]

Nope.

[moff]

To me, the main issues, which can all be fixed aftermarket are:

- narrow front tyres, meaning faster loss of frontend grip
- slightly too much body roll, but nothing that really concerns me
- slight lack of feedback through the steering wheel
- brakes are not as good as I was hoping for
- weight, the car is heavy

Overall I love my 135i, but due to me coming from 5 years with two Honda S2000's, the issues above are probably exagerated. To most coming from other BMW's or similar cars, they probably won't notice most of the problems.

The key changes that I would make would be 225's on the front and a stiffer rear sway bar.

[JB135i]

Originally Posted by moff

To me, the main issues, which can all be fixed aftermarket are:

- narrow front tyres, meaning faster loss of frontend grip
- slightly too much body roll, but nothing that really concerns me
- slight lack of feedback through the steering wheel
- brakes are not as good as I was hoping for
- weight, the car is heavy

Overall I love my 135i, but due to me coming from 5 years with two Honda S2000's, the issues above are probably exagerated. To most coming from other BMW's or similar cars, they probably won't notice most of the problems.

The key changes that I would make would be 225's on the front and a stiffer rear sway bar.

+1, (except loving my 135i) even the with an S2000 and my last car part, I have owned 2. Let me add inconsistancy in stock form as well. On the street, on the exact same corner, even on the same day, within the same hour, the car will let go at different points in the corners and the worst part is a different END will let go.

With the S2000 you always knew what it was going to do.

I have quit autocrossing because I find the 135i such a mess to drive in stock form and I don't want to buy another car right now. I am no pro-driver, but I have been an instructor (for beginners) and have enough events under my belt to know what I don't find fun.

[warmtoes]

I don't get it as well. I was reading the old Car of the Year issue of Motor Trend recently (won by the GT-R) and one of the finalists was the 135i and one of the editor notes on it was, "More stable at 150mph than the GT-R". Not sure why some people have issues with the high speed instability when you read things like that.

[Eyeman]

It's all just a matter of relativity. The 135 has high end engine performance, so maybe that makes people want a similar suspension. Many are comparing One's to Evo's, Caymans, etc so no wonder they feel the suspension is a little bouncy. I feel that way myself coming from a Porsche 968, so I'm installing coilovers and already have non-RFTs (235fronts). But it is funny now that when I get in my 968 I'm bothered somewhat by the rough ride...again relative to what I'm comparing it to, the 135.

[Robert]

People are nitpicking. The issue is people have expectation of the car, which may be unrealistic, and when it is not met they attribute the gap to lack of performance of the car but not the unrealistic expectation. Unrealistic expectation is how important is oversteer by default when the car is meant for street only, as if power induced oversteer is not sufficient.

I, too, suffer from this. I plan to track the car but I haven't yet. The suspension is more than capable for the street but my expectation was a lot less body roll. Does not mean the car isn't a good car but just I wished it had less roll.

[vasracer]

great original post.

I too think that that the overall capabilities of the car are beyond most drivers. And those drivers should be or already are getting into real race cars.
I am upgrading my suspension mostly because I want the car to roll less and change directions faster. I am not timing my upcoming track weekend, and I don't expect this car to feel like my Lotus does on the track.

But it does like going in a straight line, and it think it would be more fun with camber plates. (I may even go slower on the track because of less perceived stability, I dunno)

[raceman]

If you don't need comfort of smooth ride it is very easy to improve handling.
Period.
I like this small compromise in handling characteristics and think that non-sport suspension is even better choice.

[moff]

The high speed handling comments do have some substance IMO.

However, it's not until 140+ that you notice,

I wasn't on the smoothest surface, but my car was very edgey above 140mph. I don't scare easily but in my car at 150mph (indicated on speedo, not GPS) the car was edgy and grabing every bump, camber and irregularity of the surface.

Having said the above, my car's tracking and balance was shocking straight from the factory which was disappointing and I tested the top speed prior to getting the tracking fixed. But, my lack of confidence probably rests with the poor runflat tyres which I do not think are up to the task of high speed runs unless on a very smooth road surface.

[rushbmw]

I feel that my only complaint about the 135i suspension isn't so much on the track as it is on the street. Public roads in NY just plain suck and its the ability of the 135i handling them that I have a problem with. I tend to drive my GF Lexus IS 250 faster just because it handles bumps in the road so well. I know that the 135i is a better handling car than the Lexus but I can't reach that level because of all the bouncing and skipping the car will do. The run flat tires cause a major part of the problem and getting rid of them will help. I can't understand why BMW would use Run flats and then engineer a suspension to try to deal with it short comings. Later this year I will get to track my car and I will get a better idea of how it is at the limits. Maybe then I will make a better judgement of the suspension

[Lubo]

I came from GTI with KONI coils. I have found through my autox events that running softer dampening in front and stiffer in rear helped the times. I even went to the length of removing the stock front sway and running stiffer springs. Sure the car leaned more in corners but the grip level has much improved. I just got the Clear bra installed on the car and I will change oil before attending my first autox event in the 135i on June 6th. Even though the run flats are stiff and bounce off imperfections on street the car handles amazingly well and I have yet to find its understeer problems on the street that people are complaing about.

[Red Bread]

Compared to all of the other rwd cars I've owned, the 135i understeers much more, yes, even in relatively sedate conditions. It also isn't nearly as easy to pivot with the throttle as other cars. Is it terrible? No. But it's not nearly as engaging as other cars I've owned. I realize it can be reduced, it was just surprising to buy a BMW that had as much understeer in stock form.

I don't attribute this to high speed handling, in fact, understeer would be preferable at high speeds. I'd suspect that the heavy rft's are mostly to blame for what others are experiencing at high speeds, not the inherent understeer.

[neteagle]

I came from a track prepped GTI to the 1 and I have to say this car has incredible grip in stock form. I spent a ton of money on my GTI to get it to handle. The 135i is pretty darn good out of the box. Even the RFT complains are blown way out of proportion. On the track, the RFT were pretty darn good and I love the crisp turn-in on the RFT with the stiff sidewalls.

Overall the car is very neutral. The small amount of understeer in over-driven slow corners can easily be corrected by inducing a higher slip angle in the rear via the throttle.

The fact is, most people can detect and correct understeer and the natural reaction (to lift) helps correct the problem. The car was set up that way on purpose. I would not want to drive around in an everyday driver that has an oversteer tendency even if it was mild.

The other part to remember is that no car is perfectly neutral in all turns at all speeds. If that was possible, race teams would not spend to much time coming up with the perfect compromise.

At the end of the day, our cars have so much power that the right approach for cornering is the good old "slow in...fast out". Our cars are not 1.8l inline 4 engines where momentum is the game.

Sure, improvements in overall grip level can easily be achieved through a number of mods...all with great results, BUT I would keep the stock balance the way it is. A lot of R&D went into creating a compromise that works on the street and on the occasional track day. If the car is a full time track monster, some balance changes may be beneficial (and chances are, you'll make changes such as outragous negative camber that would shred tires on the street anyway).

Finally, I hate bodyroll. Our cars do have a ton of it stock. I will change that. BUT bodyroll does not hurt handling. In fact, bodyroll makes you a better driver. It forces you to make changes in direction in a progressive and controlled manner (quiet hands). It keeps you from throwing the car around and teaches you to learn to drive smooth at the limit. People who throw springs, sways, or coils on their car on day one cheat themselves out of having the car show them how it needs to be driven.

...this post ended up being longer than I had planned...

...my 2 cents.

[m3bs]

Originally Posted by neteagle

I came from a track prepped GTI to the 1 and I have to say this car has incredible grip in stock form. I spent a ton of money on my GTI to get it to handle. The 135i is pretty darn good out of the box. Even the RFT complains are blown way out of proportion. On the track, the RFT were pretty darn good and I love the crisp turn-in on the RFT with the stiff sidewalls.

Overall the car is very neutral. The small amount of understeer in over-driven slow corners can easily be corrected by inducing a higher slip angle in the rear via the throttle.

That pretty much mirrors my impressions of when I took the 135 to the track for the first time. I found the overall grip of the RFTs to be very impressive, but at Roebling, the long sweeping corners overwhelmed the skinny front tires.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=5

[Call]

For the most part I don't look at upgrading my ONE as being dissatisfied nor not meeting my expectations. The car is pretty much what I expected it to be...a starting point. If the ONE meets your needs & expectations then it has done it's job...for you. Just remember we are not all alike and our expections probably are different.

The 80% of capable performance is a sliding scale for the car, the driver and the tracking surface that depends on improvement in all three. I've never been satisfied with not improving in all three areas whatever it takes.

Finally, for me not modding my cars takes some of the fun out of it.

Call

[m3bs]

Originally Posted by Call

Finally, for me not modding my cars takes some of the fun out of it.

Call

JB3 is calling you..................

[ARES45]

The limitting factor for my car's handling sits in the left seat, I just don't have the driving prowess to safely find the limits of the cars handling (not to mention the bank account).

[xbook]

Originally Posted by neteagle

Blah blah blah blah blah....


...my 2 cents.

Well said, I 100% agree


...I only shortened your post, cuz it was a bit long. no offense intended with the blah blah blah...

[Call]

Originally Posted by m3bs

JB3 is calling you..................

I've got to check out the tuning first which I hope will come later this Summer or before. My tuner is working on it. Enjoy it for awhile then the JB19

Call

[vasracer]

i have to agree with original post..

just did 3 days of track driving with bmwcca this weekend, and ended up really enjoying the stock suspension tremendously.

at first, I was very dissapointed, as I had become accustomed to tracking a lotus elise and reading these forums, so naturally, I was shocked that the front of the car would just go in a straight line and the front tires didn't really do anything but squeal.

but once you learn to drive better, which takes good drivers a lap or two to figure out, and others like me, most of the day, the 1 just flies. There is not a lot of traction, compared to a evo 8 for example, but the power oversteer and drifting brings big grins. It actually proved very comfortable to push hard.

I was very impressed by the end of the weekend, much of my m3 envy was erased.

[MOCKBA]

For BMWs I drove reasonable time my impressin in handling is:
Z4>1>3