I test drove a Mustang today.

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by amancuso

Leather is an option on all BMW's I think thats a joke.

I'm kind of glad for the 'ette option on my car.
But I would expect a car priced north of $100K would include leather without my asking for it.

[2012_135i]

Originally Posted by ksparks

That new boss is crazy. The entry level boss did laguna seca in 3 or 4 seconds faster than an M3.

That was the Laguna Seca package (No back seat and other tweaks and goodies) which has a dedicated track car setting with a separate ignition key for it. 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and quarter mile in 12.3. It did a lap time at Laguna Seca raceway in 1:39.5

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/ca...02-laguna-seca

[ksparks]

Originally Posted by 2012_135i

That was the Laguna Seca package (No back seat and other tweaks and goodies) which has a dedicated track car setting with a separate ignition key for it. 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and quarter mile in 12.3. It did a lap time at Laguna Seca raceway in 1:39.5

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/ca...02-laguna-seca

And the entry boss did 1:40.2., compared to the best M3 @ 1:42.96... practically 3 seconds quicker... which is pretty significant.

The gap between the LS edition and the regular boss is far less than that @ 7/10's of a second. Not worthy of losing the back seat, and having the ugly racing stripes and wheels. Just my .02.

If you want pure speed, the Boss is hard to beat, look at the below list. Performance wise, it is in a different class.


http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

[1speedbike]

Originally Posted by TMR013

there is just something indescribable about driving a BMW that the Mustang can't match.

This^

People often ask me "why bother with a BMW? So and so car has this performance, so and so car has these luxury options, hyundai genesis blah blah, why bother with an overpriced bmw?" All of these people have never actually driven a BMW, I can almost guarantee that.

It's just that general feeling of fun and quality. Something about the steering feel that nobody else can really match. Something about the quality of the materials that, even though the cabin's a little ugly, it still feels nice. Even though the peak hp and peak torque of a BMW engine might not be as much as on another car, the power curve is just smoother and it just feels so much more balanced and nice. Nobody really can understand these things until they drive the car for themselves.

It's all the little things that make up the quality of the whole. For example, my uncle was trying to tell me about how much he loves the new luxury hyundais (Equus and Genesis). He doesn't get why I'd spend money on an "overpriced" BMW. Well, okay, I'm sure they're great cars, but again.. the little things. Let's ignore the obvious fact that those are big luxury sedans and I have a sports coupe. Just in terms of luxury, here is Edmund's long termer Equus, less than 6 months old and fewer than 8,000 miles at the time:





My seats look like that now... after 3 and a half years. My steering wheel is nowhere near that condition. If those were on my car after 6 months, I would quickly become the biggest headache my service department ever had. It just shows that while it may look nice, and the numbers look right, all of the options are there, there is always this intangible aspect of quality that makes the difference (well, it's tangible in this case). To wrap up the uncle story, we went to a hyundai dealership (with my dad and other uncle in tow), test drove everything, and my uncle decided he liked his 10 year old Lincoln Town Car better than anything Hyundai had to offer (speaking of quality, that Lincoln is an amazing car, wish more Detroit cars were like it). Sure some 1ers have rattles and squeaks, but mine doesn't. I feel bad for those that do have those problems, because if I were to experience it on a daily basis, it might change my opinion, but for now, I still believe in BMW's quality.

I know I posted Equus pictures, and this is a Mustang thread; it's not even the same type of car, but to me it's the same concept. BMW (and German cars in general) just feel "right", beyond the numbers, beyond the lap times, beyond the options available and standard features. And that's why I love BMW. I love Mustangs for their heritage, their all-out performance, their engines.. but I don't necessarily love driving them as much as I love driving my car. So, TMR, I fully agree with your sentiments

[shockin330i]

Originally Posted by TMR013

American cars are getting better. But I have to say that the interiors seem to be the last bastion of the design by accountant at the big 3. I still think it's funny that leather is an option on the new Vettes.
But I still would not consider buying one, at least not as an enthusiests car. Sorry, there is just something indescribable about driving a BMW that the Mustang can't match. But it appears to be a pretty good car. In the dwindling rear wheel drive coupe segment, it's probably comes in closely behind our 1's.

As an enthusiast car, leather shouldn't really matter.

[Prof T]

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

This^

People often ask me "why bother with a BMW? So and so car has this performance, so and so car has these luxury options, hyundai genesis blah blah, why bother with an overpriced bmw?" All of these people have never actually driven a BMW, I can almost guarantee that.

It's just that general feeling of fun and quality. Something about the steering feel that nobody else can really match. Something about the quality of the materials that, even though the cabin's a little ugly, it still feels nice. Even though the peak hp and peak torque of a BMW engine might not be as much as on another car, the power curve is just smoother and it just feels so much more balanced and nice. Nobody really can understand these things until they drive the car for themselves.

It's all the little things that make up the quality of the whole. For example, my uncle was trying to tell me about how much he loves the new luxury hyundais (Equus and Genesis). He doesn't get why I'd spend money on an "overpriced" BMW. Well, okay, I'm sure they're great cars, but again.. the little things. Let's ignore the obvious fact that those are big luxury sedans and I have a sports coupe. Just in terms of luxury, here is Edmund's long termer Equus, less than 6 months old and fewer than 8,000 miles at the time:





My seats look like that now... after 3 and a half years. My steering wheel is nowhere near that condition. If those were on my car after 6 months, I would quickly become the biggest headache my service department ever had. It just shows that while it may look nice, and the numbers look right, all of the options are there, there is always this intangible aspect of quality that makes the difference (well, it's tangible in this case). To wrap up the uncle story, we went to a hyundai dealership (with my dad and other uncle in tow), test drove everything, and my uncle decided he liked his 10 year old Lincoln Town Car better than anything Hyundai had to offer (speaking of quality, that Lincoln is an amazing car, wish more Detroit cars were like it). Sure some 1ers have rattles and squeaks, but mine doesn't. I feel bad for those that do have those problems, because if I were to experience it on a daily basis, it might change my opinion, but for now, I still believe in BMW's quality.

I know I posted Equus pictures, and this is a Mustang thread; it's not even the same type of car, but to me it's the same concept. BMW (and German cars in general) just feel "right", beyond the numbers, beyond the lap times, beyond the options available and standard features. And that's why I love BMW. I love Mustangs for their heritage, their all-out performance, their engines.. but I don't necessarily love driving them as much as I love driving my car. So, TMR, I fully agree with your sentiments

[Sauce]

Ok so clearly I have some different thoughts about this question than the majority here. You guys keep bringing up the "indescribable" card. The type of thing that you can't explain but it just makes a car so special, this is what makes a car to me, performance numbers blah blah are all great and carry weight, but you can get as much driving pleasure from a miata as something costing 20x as much. And from my humble point of view that is the sole thing missing from my 1. When you take a step back and look at basically every BMW in pieces, they are amazing, that is undoubtable. But when you put those pieces together I feel as if they are missing something, it is missing that soul. Just last weekend I drove a 2011 Gt w/ straight pipes and springs for a good 20 minutes so I have a very recent and valid basis to compare. I will only contrast driving pleasure, I am going to skip interior etc. as that is obvious and a nill point, that is why the Mustang is cheaper and why people get hung up on that and use it as a negative for the mustang is beyond me. But that car has soul, it makes you feel like a part of it. It's not the fact that it is insanely fast out of the gate, it's not the fact that it can beat an m3 around a track, the reason why it is so fun is something you can't put a finger on. It just gets to you. You get out of the car, palms sweating and adrenal glands still active saying to yourself "Man that car is fun". My 1'er with a JB4 was at least as fast as the car, it is so so much nicer, feels quite a bit more solid overall but I just don't know. I have not once gotten out of the car feeling the way I did w/ my previous STi or the Mustang. I truly believe the people that get all gushy over bmw's just have not experienced a car that truly gets under your skin and resides in your soul. I really really like my 1, but I do not love it.

[alvitdk]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I really really like my 1, but I do not love it.

Well, than you are just not worthy of your Beemer , just kidding of course. To each it's own, I test drove the MX-5 convertible as well as the Mustang before buying my 128i convertible, and I never felt as much soul in any car than in the BMW. I also have a 2010 Golf TDI for commuting and I felt the same when I got it, but for me the BMW is just a different level.

In the end it really doesn't matter, whatever makes you happy, go for it!

[ksparks]

Originally Posted by alvitdk

Well, than you are just not worthy of your Beemer ,

Who's talking about motorcycles?

[TX78666]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I truly believe the people that get all gushy over bmw's just have not experienced a car that truly gets under your skin and resides in your soul.

Or, they connect with different cars than you. I've experienced a lot of cars, including multiple generations of Mustangs, some very heavily modded. I've also experienced the STi. For me, the 135 is more fun than any of them, and I feel much more connected to it.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by alvitdk

Well, than you are just not worthy of your Beemer , just kidding of course. To each it's own, I test drove the MX-5 convertible as well as the Mustang before buying my 128i convertible, and I never felt as much soul in any car than in the BMW. I also have a 2010 Golf TDI for commuting and I felt the same when I got it, but for me the BMW is just a different level.

In the end it really doesn't matter, whatever makes you happy, go for it!

I am just a weirdo when it comes to cars, I see exactly where the love for the car comes from, I just don't feel it. BTW when I was talking about Miatas I meant a 90's track prepped little monster, not a new street car.

Originally Posted by TX78666

Or, they connect with different cars than you. I've experienced a lot of cars, including multiple generations of Mustangs, some very heavily modded. I've also experienced the STi. For me, the 135 is more fun than any of them, and I feel much more connected to it.

You are absolutely correct, there is no formula for a car to evoke this feeling I am describing and this is because every single person has a different thing about a car that would set it off.

[Mark16q]

To get a Mustang GT 'vert equipped similarly to a 135i vert is within a few thousand dollars. That is the part I have a hard time with. No question it's a great motor and handles far better than logic would indicate, but it costs German and from a few feet away looks like the Enterprise rental model.

[2012_135i]

Originally Posted by ksparks

...Not worthy of losing the back seat, and having the ugly racing stripes and wheels. Just my .02.

If you want pure speed, the Boss is hard to beat, look at the below list. Performance wise, it is in a different class.


http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

Have to agree. The differences between the LS and standard models just don't add up, especially losing the back seat. Then there's the price difference. The Boss is quite something and was very tempting. If I wanted a muscle car the Boss would have been it hands down over anything else out there. It's an amazing machine and definitely in a different class performance wise. But I wanted more than pure speed and and a big engine, as amazing as that engine is, and that spelled 135i for me.

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Ok so clearly I have some different thoughts about this question than the majority here. You guys keep bringing up the "indescribable" card. ...

And from my humble point of view that is the sole thing missing from my 1....

Just last weekend I drove a 2011 Gt w/ straight pipes and springs for a good 20 minutes so I have a very recent and valid basis to compare. ...
It just gets to you. You get out of the car, palms sweating and adrenal glands still active saying to yourself "Man that car is fun". My 1'er with a JB4 was at least as fast as the car, it is so so much nicer, feels quite a bit more solid overall but I just don't know. I have not once gotten out of the car feeling the way I did w/ my previous STi or the Mustang. I truly believe the people that get all gushy over bmw's just have not experienced a car that truly gets under your skin and resides in your soul. I really really like my 1, but I do not love it.

I'll echo these sentiments.

I sold a z3m (s54 powered 2002 - had s52 before that), and a zhp 330ci and went with the 135. After the tune it was faster than either car in a straight line by a bunch.

Both the z3m and the zhp were more involving cars. The zhp had nice steering, the 135 is numb compared to that car. The zhp was the closest to the e36 or early e46 cars which had almost too much steering feel.
The z3m was the only bmw way over powered for the chassis. It was a hoot to drive though.

I bought a z4m and kind of settled my desire for a 'fun' car. Steering was much better than the 135, power was nice, but not up to tuned n54 and handling was very good and involving but still seemed to lack an edge.

The only BMW i've had recently that everytime i was in it i'd smile was the z3m (s54) car. It was just fun to drive. rough and edgy, cheapy interior, etc. My current replacement, does that and more. With temps now in the 50s at WOT my vette breaks loose at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear, kind of scary fun, but fun nonetheless.

My 1 is very capable, very quiet, very nice, but i never get out and with a grin on my face....the vette does that for me. Perhaps a v8 sound and 200 more HP would in the 135 but in many ways it's 'too good' to be fun; it does everything almost for you, with balance, poise, quiet interior, smooth power, etc. The vette will handle but you need to push it, the fully exhausted sound to me is awesome, and the centrifugal blowers power is exhilarating.

Not having driven the new boss, but a GT it's got sound, motor, and you have to push it to make it go fast. It often goes back to the slow car fast vs the fast car slow....the BMW is maybe too good for some of us.

[2012_135i]

Originally Posted by roo97ss

I'll echo these sentiments.

....the BMW is maybe too good for some of us.

An interesting point of view. From reading this thread it's clear that things can get real esoteric when trying to describe why a particular car imparts that alchemy of excitement over any other. It's obviously very personal. For me, all I know is that when I got of the 135i after my test drive all I wanted to do was get back in it.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by roo97ss

I'll echo these sentiments.

I sold a z3m (s54 powered 2002 - had s52 before that), and a zhp 330ci and went with the 135. After the tune it was faster than either car in a straight line by a bunch.

Both the z3m and the zhp were more involving cars. The zhp had nice steering, the 135 is numb compared to that car. The zhp was the closest to the e36 or early e46 cars which had almost too much steering feel.
The z3m was the only bmw way over powered for the chassis. It was a hoot to drive though.

I bought a z4m and kind of settled my desire for a 'fun' car. Steering was much better than the 135, power was nice, but not up to tuned n54 and handling was very good and involving but still seemed to lack an edge.

The only BMW i've had recently that everytime i was in it i'd smile was the z3m (s54) car. It was just fun to drive. rough and edgy, cheapy interior, etc. My current replacement, does that and more. With temps now in the 50s at WOT my vette breaks loose at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear, kind of scary fun, but fun nonetheless.

My 1 is very capable, very quiet, very nice, but i never get out and with a grin on my face....the vette does that for me. Perhaps a v8 sound and 200 more HP would in the 135 but in many ways it's 'too good' to be fun; it does everything almost for you, with balance, poise, quiet interior, smooth power, etc. The vette will handle but you need to push it, the fully exhausted sound to me is awesome, and the centrifugal blowers power is exhilarating.

Not having driven the new boss, but a GT it's got sound, motor, and you have to push it to make it go fast. It often goes back to the slow car fast vs the fast car slow....the BMW is maybe too good for some of us.

Wow, I can not believe it. Another BMW owner that thinks like me?!? Your last sentence hits home with me. I feel as certain cars have "flaws" that can be mastered and add something absolutely inexplainable to a driving experience. My STi understeered quite a bit, but you know what, once in a while I would trail brake the hell out of it and it would rotate beautifully. There is no feeling quite like that, it is very similar to baseball. You go up there and for the most part fail, but once in a while you hit a home run and the feeling can not be replicated, you spend all your time relentlessly searching for that feeling again. Another factor was how much faster that car would go around corners and how it didn't feel all wobbly like the stock 135 susp. but thats a different thread. That was undoubtedly a weak argument, but I come from a huge porsche family and the way older 911's feel is unlike anything else. When the rear of let's say an '87 911 gets loose, it does not feel like the 135 where you know you dished out too much power and just correct. The rear of the car is literally overtaking the front in the same way a hammer head would overtake the handle if dropped handle down. It is a disconcerting feeling and absolutely one of the biggest flaws you will ever see in a car, yet you can use that as an advantage, you can get the car to rotate and just when you think is going to spin you add power and the engine plants itself on the tires and it just goes. There is just something so damn satisfying about pinpointing some type of flaw and being able to adapt yourself and conquer.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Hamster12011

This thread makes me laugh. I have spent plenty of time behind the wheel of both an SRT Challenger and a Shelby GT500. Both had less rattles and felt much better put together then my 1 series. The so called better handling the 135 has is a joke. Push the car hard and it flounders. Combine that with shitty run flat tires and short suspension travel and you are left with a car the bottoms out over frost heaves or potholes and crashes and bangs when driven on rough roads. My 135 drove like shit and I found plenty of rental-car plastic inside the interior also. There is also one huge difference between the 135 and any of the Detroit cars. Take them to a track day and the BMW just can't take the punishment. I love BMW, but the simplicity of a Mustang, Camaro etc. has its benefits.

Other than agreeing with you that the 135i suspension needs refinement, my 135i driving experience has been nothing like yours.
Mine rides nicely even on rough pavement.
It rarely "crashes" into any bumps.
RFT's don't help the chassis at all, but a swap to non RFT's made the ride even nicer.
I have no rattles in my car and the roads around the Chicago area are not butter smooth either.

In terms of dash layout and interior materials, the 1 isn't the pinnacle of "best". But compared to the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger or Charger, the 1 series is better designed, better integrated, looks much nicer, and has overall better materials than those muscle cars.

The Camaro is a straight up let down. It's HUGE on the outside and cramped on the inside. The interior looks to marry 70's asthetic with 80's boombox electronics. Not nice at all.

The Challenger is also much TOO big with half the car being the massive hood. Interior materials are nice, but overall design is retro dull.

The Mustang has a better size, but it sits so freaking tall on it's tires.
Where the 1's tallness looks interesting and odd, the Mustang just looks wrong. The interiors overall design isn't bad, but it tries too hard to be retro especially the gauges. Inside it feels much more cramped than my 135i. American interior space packaging needs work in their sport cars.

Americans can do nice interiors. The new Buick's have very nice interiors and exteriors and materials are up to the asking price.
The Malibu interior is NOTHING like the old GM "melted dash" look.
They are very modern and tasteful.
The Cruze is especially nice for such a low cost. If the Camaro were 1/3 smaller and had the Cruze's interior it would be in the running for my next car, but it isn't and doesn't.
Heck even the Hyundai Elantra, Sonata, and Genesis coupe have much nicer interiors than any of the Muscle cars.

Muscle cars is where American auto makers are failing to attract buyers who want refinement with their sport. The cost of those cars isn't much lower than what a 1 or 3 coupe costs when you opt for the top performers and better parts like Brembo brakes and higher spec suspensions.
So, put some of that money into the interior design and construction.
Enthusiasts like me really want alternatives for different driving experiences. But, I'm not going to pay just for engine and legacy icons imagery.

[cvandenhaute]

Originally Posted by audimotion

I feel the same way about these "new" american muscle. They look great on the outside, have fantastic engines, but the interiors absolutely blow.
The other reason I have never considered one of these cars is the fact they are so big. When I see one sitting on the lot next to a taurus or other large 4 door sedan and the stang/camero/charger looks almost as big. The size of the 1 was one of the main reasons I was drawn to it.
Smaller car with big HP = fun times. Big car with big HP = boring in my book.

+1

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Wow, I can not believe it. Another BMW owner that thinks like me?!? Your last sentence hits home with me. I feel as certain cars have "flaws" that can be mastered and add something absolutely inexplainable to a driving experience. My STi understeered quite a bit, but you know what, once in a while I would trail brake the hell out of it and it would rotate beautifully. There is no feeling quite like that, it is very similar to baseball. You go up there and for the most part fail, but once in a while you hit a home run and the feeling can not be replicated, you spend all your time relentlessly searching for that feeling again. Another factor was how much faster that car would go around corners and how it didn't feel all wobbly like the stock 135 susp. but thats a different thread. That was undoubtedly a weak argument, but I come from a huge porsche family and the way older 911's feel is unlike anything else. When the rear of let's say an '87 911 gets loose, it does not feel like the 135 where you know you dished out too much power and just correct. The rear of the car is literally overtaking the front in the same way a hammer head would overtake the handle if dropped handle down. It is a disconcerting feeling and absolutely one of the biggest flaws you will ever see in a car, yet you can use that as an advantage, you can get the car to rotate and just when you think is going to spin you add power and the engine plants itself on the tires and it just goes. There is just something so damn satisfying about pinpointing some type of flaw and being able to adapt yourself and conquer.

Yes, we're way out of touch with many here. We're also likley the guys that enjoy the 1 series with the DSC disabled too, and aren't even remotely afraid of it. the first time I saw guys talking about TIM YOY as if you're out of your mind to take your life in your own hands with a car as planted, stable and understeering as the 1 i didn't know how to reply. The 1 is very good, so good that i keep it as my daily driver and couldn't imagine driving a challenger, camaro, mustang or even the vette daily. I enjoy the 1 immensely for that purpose, it feels small, is nimble and my favorite car to take into the city, whether it be Philly or NYC. But when i want that sh!t eating grin on my face, sliding the vette sideways....anywhere at anytime with a v8 roar (old school american here) is just what the dr. ordered.

[juliansorl]

I wish I could take a shrink ray to both the Camaro and the Mustang. I would just take them down a notch or two but keep the engines as they are. I agree that my 135 has more leg room then the Mustang - I don't know why ford needs to make the dash so bulky? It's true that a tricked out Mustang starts to approach the price of a bmw but it seems to me that you are getting a little more value with the Mustang. I just don't understand why Ford thinks that the current interior is up to par for what is a 38-46k car (in gt form)? Although really my main complaint is with the dash which is down right cheap looking.

[shockin330i]

Originally Posted by 2012_135i

Have to agree. The differences between the LS and standard models just don't add up, especially losing the back seat. Then there's the price difference. The Boss is quite something and was very tempting. If I wanted a muscle car the Boss would have been it hands down over anything else out there. It's an amazing machine and definitely in a different class performance wise. But I wanted more than pure speed and and a big engine, as amazing as that engine is, and that spelled 135i for me.

The price difference reflects the fact that only 500 LS were made.

[Hops128i]

Totally agree with the shrink ray idea! The Camaro has grown from like 3000lbs to like 3800lbs! The Mustang isn't as bad, but it can lose some weight too.

In general, I'd much rather buy a 3000lb car with 300hp, than a 4000lb car with 400hp.